How much oxygen gets introduced to the wort when you add the grains?

[BrewerofBeers]

Every time I add grains, I can't help but think that all the bubbles floating to the surface contain harmful oxygen rising through the stike strike water. And this happens after I cleared my strike water of most of the oxygen by using yeast.

How big of an issue is this and does it negate oxygen scavaging efforts?

 

[day_trippr]

Underlet the strike.

Cheers!

 

[BrewerofBeers]

I do, actually. But every little crushed kernel has some air bubbles stuck to it. Some oxygen is going to get introduced no matter what. How about pre-soaking in coldwater? No thanks for me

 

[Bramling Cross]

Every time I add grains, I can't help but think that all the bubbles floating to the surface contain harmful oxygen rising through the stike strike water. And this happens after I cleared my strike water of most of the oxygen by using yeast.

How big of an issue is this and does it negate oxygen scavaging efforts?

It's not that big of an issue if you underlet slowly and utilize trifecta blend to scavenge any oxygen introduced during the strike. I'd like to include some links for you, but I recently learned that we're not supposed to be linking to a site from which my links originate. Unfortunately, searching on this site doesn't yield what I'm looking for, I'll go dig around on our LODO sub forum and see if I can dig anything up for you.

 

[BrewerofBeers]

Thanks! I'm aware of the trifecta

 

[Bramling Cross]

Thanks! I'm aware of the trifecta

Cool, I gave it a good dig around, but couldn't find a sanctioned source that went into the nitty gritty details. Unfortunately, my searches led me to my Panther Piss article, which isn't a good source for proper LODO technique.

 

[MaxStout]

You have to go to the other site--they cover it in detail. Easy Google search. Some Brewtan B, ascorbic acid and sodium metabisulfite.

The BtB can be purchased by the ounce at William's Brewing. A little goes a long way.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The BtB can be purchased by the ounce at William's Brewing. A little goes a long way.

Also OxBlox (trifecta blend?) at MoreBeer.

 

[BrewerofBeers]

I do use all 3. However I think brewtan b in the strike water is enough. It can remain viable all the way into the finished beer. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid), on the other hand, can diminish over time in boiling wort, so I also like to add that again at bottling/kegging. I only add campden to the strike water after yeast scavenge the oxygen in it. I don't add any of the 3 immediately post boil. I think the remaining Vitamin C and brewtan B are enough at that point. Besides, after pitching, most of the oxidative activity will stop as soon as yeast are active enough.

 

[Bobby_M]

CO2 purge into the drain valve slowly would displace oxygen before you add the strike water. It's a bit over the top and I'm not advocating for it, but that would be one way to make those bubbles "not oxygen".

 

[Bramling Cross]

Also OxBlox (trifecta blend?) at MoreBeer.

I've used that for about a year, I think I got better results with homebrew trifecta, but I can't say that for sure. I need to wait for my current jar of OxBlox to run out--which won't happen until late next winter. I'm not bothered enough about it to pony up the big bucks for a shipment of Brewtan-B. Really, it's more of a hunch that I have, coupled with my disgust at MoreBeer's business practices, than anything else.

 

[Bassman2003]

Dough-in is the most exposed part of the entire process. All one can do is underlet slowly (10 min+) to give time for sulfites to 'win the battle' so to speak. After all of the strike water is in, a stir will dislodge any trapped air pockets and the rest is history. The air is in the grain, so even purging the mash tun does not totally cure the problem.

 

[Bassman2003]

I've used that for about a year, I think I got better results with homebrew trifecta, but I can't say that for sure. I need to wait for my current jar of OxBlox to run out--which won't happen until late next winter. I'm not bothered enough about it to pony up the big bucks for a shipment of Brewtan-B. Really, it's more of a hunch that I have, coupled with my disgust at MoreBeer's business practices, than anything else.

Sulfites are what you need for oxygen mitigation. Brewtan-B is for clarity and metal chelation. Brewtan helps one get crystal clear wort from the mash and the boil. Some is added to both with sulfites only being added to the mash. Ascorbic acid is not really used anymore by "the group".

 

[BrewerofBeers]

CO2 purge into the drain valve slowly would displace oxygen before you add the strike water. It's a bit over the top and I'm not advocating for it, but that would be one way to make those bubbles "not oxygen".

It's more than that. It's also the little tiny bubbles of air that get trapped inside the husks and other compartments that can trap little air bubbles as soon as the grain hits the water.

One solution I can think of is using a vacuum to remove as much as possible, but this is exceedingly complicated because you'd have to get the grains in the stike water while they're under vacuum.

Another method would be to soak all the grains in water ahead of time to get all the air out. This, of course, comes with its own issues.

 

[Bassman2003]

Some folks have purged mash tuns and can pull a vacuum... but they still use sulfites. Some German breweries devised a way to mill the grain inside a flow of de-aerated strike water directly into the mash tun. Over the top but they can not use sulfites.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Sulfites are what you need for oxygen mitigation. Brewtan-B is for clarity and metal chelation. Brewtan helps one get crystal clear wort from the mash and the boil. Some is added to both with sulfites only being added to the mash. Ascorbic acid is not really used anymore by "the group".

I really appreciate that. Since I decided to adopt LODO as part of the Panther Piss Project, then saw the results, I haven't given any thought to "the group." I have something that works, and it works well, and that's fine with me. I currently don't see a need to improve.

I don't want to be a pain in the butt, but would you mind giving a quick and dirty explanation about Ascorbic's fall from grace? I'm still using it, quite happily.

Don't kill yourself, however! When I did my Panther Piss write up I discovered just how awful it is to try to explain this stuff. Seriously, don't bother unless it's something you're excited to talk about. I can do my own digging, if I find a reason to do so. It would be helpful, however it you gave me a link to "the group." I haven't the foggiest idea what that is or where I can find it.

 

[Broothru]

It's not that big of an issue if you underlet slowly and utilize trifecta blend to scavenge any oxygen introduced during the strike. I'd like to include some links for you, but I recently learned that we're not supposed to be linking to a site from which my links originate. Unfortunately, searching on this site doesn't yield what I'm looking for, I'll go dig around on our LODO sub forum and see if I can dig anything up for you.

My normal protocols are Yeast Oxygen Scavenging (YOS) and adding 1.8 grams Trifecta per 10 gallons of strike water.

The YOS treatment gets done the night before brew day, and supposedly will continue to reduce dissolved O2 to “barely measurable levels” for several days, or until it gets denatured early in the mash.

The Trifecta gets added with the brewing salts and calculated acidification just prior to mash in. It’s been so successful for me that I no longer bother with underletting the strike water. There’s no D.O. in the strike water, and the Trifecta takes care or any O2 pickup during the actual mashing.

In the two years I’ve been doing this, my beers have shown amazing shelf life, though hoppy beers still tend to fade a bit with time. But staling of the beer and its associated off-tastes get held off for months. It’s been a while since I’ve had a ‘dumper’ due to sherry-like or ‘wet cardboard’ from an older beer.

I tend to brew mostly lighter ales and Continental lagers, which tend to not age gracefully and leave no cover for flaws. Off-flavors from oxygen staling would be easily noticeable.

 

[Bassman2003]

The ascorbic acid thing kind of just died off. People started not using it and realized they saw no difference compared to when they did use it. There are some research papers showing that AA can easily be turned into a 'super oxidizer' which obviously drew some attention! So folks just have taken it out of the regimen and it is viewed as one less thing to add...

I would say that underletting is very important. A slow underlet gives time for the sulfites to work in small doses. Less gets trapped as the water level pushes the air out. So I would not abandon the underletting.

So for my 5 gallon batch, full volume mashes I use:

2g per gallon of dry baker's yeast & 2g of table sugar per gallon. (usually 8.25 gallons of water, 16 grams of yeast & 16 grams of sugar)
-This is left overnight at ~95-100F but at that dosage level, you can let it sit for as short at 30 minutes before heating for the mash.
1 to 1.4 grams of Sodium Metabisulfite depending on the style of beer which is added to the heated strike a few minutes before underletting.
2 grams of Brewtan B in the mash and 1.5 grams with 15min left in the boil. I put the Brewtan on top of the milled grain.

SMB levels are personal and system dependent. The tighter your system, the less you can use. But as I stated before, the guys with uber systems still use 25ppm (which on my system would be about .7 grams) as they still serve an important role.

I am happy to talk about this stuff. I have been studying this method since 2018 and still enjoy it. Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[Dland]

While not necessarily a LODO brewer, I always underlet the strike water, for several reasons. Hopefully this question is not to tangential to the discussion; If one underlets strike water very slowly, is there a risk of enzymes in some of the grain at bottom of mash being denatured due to the prolonged exposure to higher temp water?

I ask because one time when my pump was acting up, I decided to gravity feed the underleting strike while I fixed the pump, which obviously took much longer than if it was pumped. The result was a normal mash, with the added benefit of no dougballs, however, I noticed the efficiency of the mash was about 15% lower than expected for the recipe, one I have brewed regularly, with 20#s grist and about 7 gallons strike water.

It occurred to me at the time possible enzyme denaturing might have been a factor. Reading this thread, I figured someone here might have insight into this.

 

[MaxStout]

It was my understanding from what I gathered on that other site, is that AA by itself can actually become an oxidizer, but in conjunction with SMB, it is not. Perhaps it just does nothing, at best, and the SMB does the heavy lifting.

It's interesting about their findings re AA, as juice manufacturers commonly add it for shelf stability.

I might try leaving out the AA next time I bottle, and see how it works. I've had noticeably positive results from mash trifecta and bottling with AA/SMB.

 

[Bassman2003]

Bottling might be different than mashing for AA. The mash has a lot going on chemically compared to finished beer. Some proper testing would need to be done which would be quite simple to adjust dosages to different bottles and take notes as they age.

The fact that nothing changed when people left AA out of their mash was the main reason it was left behind. If things had deteriorated without AA, everybody would still be using it as it has less of an overall impact than sulfites. The group wanted AA to take the place of SMB but they just do not work the same way.

 

[Broothru]

Bottling might be different than mashing for AA. The mash has a lot going on chemically compared to finished beer. Some proper testing would need to be done which would be quite simple to adjust dosages to different bottles and take notes as they age.

The fact that nothing changed when people left AA out of their mash was the main reason it was left behind. If things had deteriorated without AA, everybody would still be using it as it has less of an overall impact than sulfites. The group wanted AA to take the place of SMB but they just do not work the same way.

So does AA not work? Only in combination with SMB? Does Brewtan B have a negative or positive effect?

All interesting points. I may try leaving the AA out of the Trifecta blend, but not until I finish brewing my last two beers for this year’s competitions. No need to tease the animals and jinx my positive past successes.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I don't know about hot-side applications but when I started adding a teaspoon of AA dissolved in 30ml of water to my kegs the shelf life easily doubled. I'm enjoying hazy dipas that are still fully alive five months in the keg...

Cheers!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Bottling might be different than mashing for AA. [...] Some proper testing would need to be done which would be quite simple to adjust dosages to different bottles and take notes as they age.

"Been there, done that" using a standard bottle fill and not 'capping on foam'.

I split the batches at bottling time - comparing

a) bottle conditioning temperature (65F v 75F),​

b) fresh yeast (CBC-1 & EC-1118), or not, and​

c) AA or not.​

Each batch had a couple of bottles that were

1) at 65F with just priming sugar and​

2) at 75F with priming sugar, fresh yeast and AA.​

My current bottling process is standard fill, not 'capping on foam', fresh yeast (CBC-1 or EC-1118) at 75F with AA - and when bottle conditioning is done, put the bottles in the fridge.

 

[Bassman2003]

So does AA not work? Only in combination with SMB? Does Brewtan B have a negative or positive effect?

All interesting points. I may try leaving the AA out of the Trifecta blend, but not until I finish brewing my last two beers for this year’s competitions. No need to tease the animals and jinx my positive past successes.

I think the mash is a different animal than cold side uses. Does AA work in the mash? User feedback was non-discernable from not using AA to using AA. So folks stopped using it in the mash. It could be a speed thing. Oxidation happens quite quickly in the mash and SMB is very speedy. It could be that AA is not quick enough to have an impact in mash interactions. The best thing about AA is that it is basically invisible to the beer. Nothing negative so it does not hurt to add it, but it might not stop oxidizing interactions in the mash either!

Brewtan has a positive impact on the wort in the mash & boil.

 

[Bassman2003]

"Been there, done that" using a standard bottle fill and not 'capping on foam'.

I split the batches at bottling time - comparing

a) bottle conditioning temperature (65F v 75F),​

b) fresh yeast (CBC-1 & EC-1118), or not, and​

c) AA or not.​

Each batch had a couple of bottles that were

1) at 65F with just priming sugar and​

2) at 75F with priming sugar, fresh yeast and AA.​

My current bottling process is standard fill, not 'capping on foam', fresh yeast (CBC-1 or EC-1118) at 75F with AA - and when bottle conditioning is done, put the bottles in the fridge.

Thanks for sharing. I could guess that the cooler temperatures and being in finished beer must help the AA have a positive impact.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I could guess that the cooler temperatures and being in finished beer must help the AA have a positive impact.

My guess is that the AA additional helps 'clean up' any weaknesses in my bottling transfer process. Those with a high quality transfer process probably won't notice a difference. I have one final (for the moment) bottling process change that I'm looking into - and after that, I'll use the current process for a while.

[...] does it negate oxygen scavaging efforts?

IMO, no.

Perhaps this side-by-side brewing experiment offers some additional insights:

• BIAB where one "squeezes the bag like it owes you money".
• In the 1st batch, do nothing LODO related.
• In the 2nd batch, go "full LODO".

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

With regard to AA becoming an oxidizer, from what I'm reading, this can happen when certain metals (e.g. copper) are present. Brewtan-B seems to be a preventative. The New IPA as well as the authors web site would likely be a good source of additional information.

 

[Miraculix]

With regard to AA becoming an oxidizer, from what I'm reading, this can happen when certain metals (e.g. copper) are present. Brewtan-B seems to be a preventative. The New IPA as well as the authors web site would likely be a good source of additional information.

Yes there's a lot written in it in that regard.

I just don't seem to see the benefits of vitamin c against SMB. Accept that SMB seems to work faster, which speaks against vitamin c. But maybe it has it's benefits only on the long run? If used only for bottling or kegging, it's probably better as it is unproblematic for the yeast. But then, why would one want to use it only for bottling or kegging.

The ultra sonic bottling technique pretty much eliminated oxygen completely from the gas phase in the bottle and the little that might be present in the liquid gets used up in 30 minutes to 1 hour once the yeast starts feeding on the priming sugar.

So from my limited perspective, there's not much left speaking for vitamin c, except for maybe kegging without natural carbonation.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

 

[Bassman2003]

From my perspective, it is important to know which additives really work and which are just 'thought to work'. I do not want to add anything unless is makes a real impact. Sort of a Reinheitsgebot view but the homebrew world is prone to less than positive dogmatic practices.

If I was a bottler I would be all over the 'shake and bake' method!

 

[kohalajohn]

Thanks! I'm aware of the trifecta

I’m not aware of the trifecta. What is it, please

 

[Miraculix]

I’m not aware of the trifecta. What is it, please

A mix of brewtan b, sodium metabisulfite and ascorbic acid aka vitamin c. It is a bit dated and not considered the best option by the guys who invented it. Nowadays, it is only sodium metabisulfite plus brewtan b.

 

[kohalajohn]

A mix of brewtan b, sodium metabisulfite and ascorbic acid aka vitamin c. It is a bit dated and not considered the best option by the guys who invented it. Nowadays, it is only sodium metabisulfite plus brewtan b.

I have sms and have ordered Brewtan.

At what stages would they be added? I have a copper chiller that I will use to chill the boiling strike water and then again to chill the boiled wort

 

[kohalajohn]

I have sms and have ordered Brewtan.

At what stages would they be added? I have a copper chiller that I will use to chill the boiling strike water and then again to chill the boiled wort

Also, I am curious about what BrewTan actually does. I see comments that it helps with the effects of copper chillers, and that SS chillers do not need this help.

Does BrewTan, which I think is just tannic acid, interfere with the reaction between copper and oils? I know that in cooking, people deliberately use pans with interior lining of copper, when whipping egg whites, as copper has some interaction with lypids.

 

[BrewerofBeers]

According to a few sources, below, Brewtan B is a natural gallotannin -- ie tannic acid for brewing, like you said. It is used to improve clarity, shelf life, and flavor stability. It causes proteins to precipitate out, reducing chill haze and preventing staling. It's also an iron chelator, inhibiting oxidation. A littler more research told me that iron is a catalyst in oxidation reactions, and when Brewtan B gets a chance, it binds to iron, gets it out, and significantly SLOWS down oxidation.

Yes, wort does contain iron, along with other "transition metals," in trace amounts. Iron, even at low levels, can significantly impact beer quality by promoting oxidation and contributing to metallic off-flavors. Iron in wort mostly comes from the malt but also possibly from brewing water and equipment.

You can dive a lot deeper than that.

https://wyeastlab.com/product/wyeast-brewtan-b/
https://sbi4beer.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/BR03-Brewtan-B-Mashing-fact-sheet-v5.0.pdf
https://atpgroup.com/product/brewtan/
https://brewsrq.com/products/brewtan-b

 

[Miraculix]

According to a few sources, below, Brewtan B is a natural gallotannin -- ie tannic acid for brewing, like you said. It is used to improve clarity, shelf life, and flavor stability. It causes proteins to precipitate out, reducing chill haze and preventing staling. It's also an iron chelator, inhibiting oxidation. A littler more research told me that iron is a catalyst in oxidation reactions, and when Brewtan B gets a chance, it binds to iron, gets it out, and significantly SLOWS down oxidation.

Yes, wort does contain iron, along with other "transition metals," in trace amounts. Iron, even at low levels, can significantly impact beer quality by promoting oxidation and contributing to metallic off-flavors. Iron in wort mostly comes from the malt but also possibly from brewing water and equipment.

You can dive a lot deeper than that.

https://wyeastlab.com/product/wyeast-brewtan-b/
https://sbi4beer.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/BR03-Brewtan-B-Mashing-fact-sheet-v5.0.pdf
https://atpgroup.com/product/brewtan/
https://brewsrq.com/products/brewtan-b

I wonder if Irish moss actually does the same thing.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Probably not.

This might be of interest: Using Tannic Acid to Clarify and Stabilize Your Brew [HomeBrewCon 2019] (link) (note the use of rehydrated Irish Moss). The audio of these presentations often contains additional information.

Enhanced web search filtering (don't confuse it with human research) yielded a couple of pages of words that seemed plausible when skimming. I might verify if I have the time/further interest. The summary of the exBEERiments also seemed to be worth a deeper look.

 

[kohalajohn]

CO2 purge into the drain valve slowly would displace oxygen before you add the strike water. It's a bit over the top and I'm not advocating for it, but that would be one way to make those bubbles "not oxygen".

Would this indicate an advantage in AIO? In 3V you boil the strike water in your boiler and move it to your mash tun, which might add a tiny bit of O2.

 

[Bassman2003]

It has been found, purging helps, but can't stop what is already trapped in the crushed grain. Your best weapons are YOS/preboil, slow underletting of the strike water/gentle slow introduction of the grain and use of sulfites.