How hard is wine making?

[mdf191]

I have been brewing beer for awhile now, and the other day I thought..."why not wine".

It seems other then the corker all my beer gear is all I need to make wine. Am I wrong in assuming this? Its wine fairly simple to make? Or is it simple to make mediocre wine, but challenging to make a homebrew wine that compares to store bought quality bottles? Or is it like beer, and homebrewed versions can often surpass the taste of store bought? Also do these "juice and concentrate" kits produce wine of high quality?

Any wine making pro's out there?

 

[BigKahuna]

Lots of wine making pro's here.
But I'm gonna answer anyway.

Yooper gave a great comparison the other day about wine kits and the = Price Range of store bought. Maybe she'll chime in and point it out.

If you do AG beer, Wine Making is like making Kool Aid.
If you do Extract Beer, wine is a bit easier, but requires more time.

You don't need a corker, bottle it in beer bottles for your first batch. They are a better serving size anyway.

 

[JVD_X]

I am certainly no wine making pro but my wife and I have made several wines from kits.

Overall - they are not too shabby. The truth is that simply waiting and allowing the wine to age for several months makes a HUGE difference. The kits are "designed" to produce a drinkable wine in like 2 months but in reality a month to several months fermenting, a few months bulk aging in a keg or glass carboy before bottling and aging for another few months has made a major difference in the quality of the wine we produce.

The downside is that you need to make a lot of wine kits in a short period of time because it takes so long to make a truly great wine, so if you want enough to drink weekly you will need to make 1/2 batches every week or two to build up you supply.

Would I compare our wine to store bought? Absolutely. Would I compare it to mid-high quality out of NAPA... no.

When we tried our first bottle of home made it absolutely sucked. I almost dumped the whole batch. After a 2nd month aging, the wine got "wow - a 2 buck chuck", the third month... "a 3 buck chuck".

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I have found home made wine to be of much lower quality than store bought, even cheap bottles. However, it is cost effective (~$90 for 30 bottles) to make kit wines. I have found the whites to be much better than reds thus far. The main problem is that only the last runnings and lowest quality grapes get made into wine kits. IMHO, fruit wines and ciders are a much better way to go if you appreciate fine wine and expect your wine to be store quality.

That said, my family will be harvesting from our Wisconsin vineyard for the first time this year! 80 vines and 8 varieties of northern growing wine grapes! should be fun, but no-one is expecting good wine for at least a couple of years. We will likely be making a lot of Sangria!!!

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Would I compare our wine to store bought? Absolutely. Would I compare it to mid-high quality out of NAPA... no.

Very well put. If you are happy drinking jug wine or cheap boxed wine, then you should definitely make your own just because it is cheaper. But if you are spending $10 a bottle normally, you will not likely be very impressed with your homemade stuff.

 

[BigKahuna]

I wonder what kits you guys are making. We have even made the "El Cheapo" Island Mist $50 for 6 gallons of wine and it's as good as a typical fruit forward $4.00 bottle of wine.
I have heard (not Experienced) that the better kits that run in the $120 range are quite comparable to the $12 - $15 range of store bought wine.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Everyone's tastes are subjective. If you can, ask a LHBS owner or manager if they have any homemade wine you can try. That way you can decide for yourself how good it is.

 

[JVD_X]

I wonder what kits you guys are making. We have even made the "El Cheapo" Island Mist $50 for 6 gallons of wine and it's as good as a typical fruit forward $4.00 bottle of wine.
I have heard (not Experienced) that the better kits that run in the $120 range are quite comparable to the $12 - $15 range of store bought wine.

It's funny you mention that... we have had GREAT luck with the Island Mist. I definitely recommend Island Mist kits.

 

[CBBaron]

I made a $70 kit Vintner's Reserve Mezza Luna Red.
At 4 months it was fruity and only slightly better than a jug wine.
At 6 months it was much improved and similar to the inexpensive bottled wine.
At a year I feel it is comparable to most red wines in the $6-$10 range. Not a great wine but most people (who like red wine) seem to like it.

It is easy and you can bottle in beer bottles if you like. I bought some screw top bottles so I could give away "bottles of wine" without needing a corker. For my self I prefer the beer bottles.

Instructions are basically:
sanitize
pour concentrate in bucket
add a packet of 2 of extras
fill to 6 gal and aerate.
pitch yeast.
After some number of days transfer to 6gal carboy
stir in clarifiers.
Wait some more then bottle.

Or something like that.

It doesn't take much effort but the wine does take a while to be really ready to drink.

Making mead and country wines is also interesting and I find it more rewarding. There is alot more involvement in deciding the recipe and ensuring you have quality ingredients. But they don't usually require much more time and can produce some wonderful drinks. There is however a bigger risk of producing something where the flavors don't work well. With kits you do have a proven combination.

Craig


Craig

 

[Yooper]

I did give my impressions of expensive kits vs. "cheap" kits in the past, and I stick by it!

I have made some very good homemade wine. My best is actually a chokecherry that is fantastic- and I hope I can actually recreate that! No one who has tried it can guess what it is- usually they guess cabernet sauvignon, but it is excellent. The crabapple wine is a good dinner wine. The kits make pretty decent dinner wines.

If you can buy a pail of fresh grape juice from wine grapes, and have the ability to put it through MLF, I think you'd be more likely to get a "great" one. Still, I've been very pleased with all of my wines so far and recommend giving it a try!

You should have all the equipment you need for fermentation.

 

[summersolstice]

I have found home made wine to be of much lower quality than store bought, even cheap bottles. However, it is cost effective (~$90 for 30 bottles) to make kit wines. I have found the whites to be much better than reds thus far. The main problem is that only the last runnings and lowest quality grapes get made into wine kits.

This is a very broad statement and, though certainly a personal opinion and not based in objectivity, it doesn't do anything to help promote home brewing, home winemaking, or any other aspect of our hobby.

The fact is that statement may have been true for all kits 15 years ago, or lower end "value priced" kits of today. However, most manufacturers currently offer kits in the $150-$200 range that come with 16 and 18 liters of juice sourced from the most respected wine growing regions in the world and they likely include grape skins or the jam-like grape packs that add additional suspended solids. These kits age well for upwards of five years – longer than country, or fruit, wines will remain at their peak.

Kit manufacturers are almost exclusively Canadian owned and the largest are huge companies with buying power that far exceeds most commercial wineries and they don't have to settle for "the last runnings and lowest quality grapes".

Many wine drinkers don't like, and most wine connoisseurs look down on, the native and hybrid grapes grown in the US Midwest but it would be irresponsible to make blanket statements condemning all such wines.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I am not getting down on home winemaking... I do it after all. I just don't think building peoples expectations up to unrealistic levels is a good idea.

 

[BigKahuna]

summersolstice: Someone should buy you a year's membership for that!

I am not getting down on home winemaking... I do it after all. I just don't think building peoples expectations up to unrealistic levels is a good idea.

I don't think that telling someone that they can make as good or better wine than you can but is unrealistic.
I've personally disliked more wine that I've purchased than wine I've made. Nearly everything i've ever made has been very good. I've actually dumped wine that I've purchased.

If you are making wine that is sub par, perhaps you should either look at your ingredients (looks like you've got a handle on that) or your process.

 

[Freezeblade]

The way I see it, (and this includes any of my home-brewing/meading etc. endevors) Is that it is far more "worth it" to make that which you could not get/buy easily. This is sort of the same idea as some people wanting to clone BMC, why do it, when you can pick it up for cheap. I lived in a wine country or california for many years, grape wine is cheap, so would I make a Zinfindel, Cab or Tempranillo? no. But would I make a pineapple wine, a strawberry? For sure.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

:lost in translation:

I am not making a point out of good or bad wine making practices. I am speaking for a position where I know a lot of people in the wine trade and drink a lot of very high quality wine. I also know a lot of people who are very big into home wine making. I like homemade wine and enjoy the process myself. I was simply trying to answer the OP's question:

Is wine fairly simple to make? Or is it simple to make mediocre wine, but challenging to make a homebrew wine that compares to store bought quality bottles?

to me this sounded like he was into wine, and wondering if he can easily make wine that is comparable to a good store bought wine. This is why in my original response, I stated that everyone's tastes are different and that everything posted on forums must be taken with a grain of salt. Most of the wine makers I know love their wine and don't particularly like store bought wines. That is fine and there is nothing wrong with that. However, if you are someone who enjoys fine wines, I will almost guarantee that home made wines will not wow your palate. They may be "mediocre" but they will not be "good" as compared with "good" commercial examples.

 

[BigKahuna]

They may be "mediocre" but they will not be "good" as compared with "good" commercial examples.

you keep saying this, and I have to keep disagreeing with you. I enjoy a lot of things, wine being one of them.
I will just have to respectfully disagree with you and we can avoid getting into petty argument.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Agreed!! I believe I will toast you with a glass of my mediocre home made wine tonight!

 

[BigKahuna]

Agreed!! I believe I will toast you with a glass of my mediocre home made wine tonight!

And I shall Toast with a "Good" Bottle of store Bought.

 

[mdf191]

Thanks for all the feedback! I think what made me question the potential quality of kit wine particularly reds, is the lack of skins. Red wines are crushed and fermented with the skins. I would imagine something must be lost when fermenting with just juice.
I have also seen that some more expensive kits offer a extra packet of skins to be added during fermentation. Has anyone tried these kits. It seems from what you are all saying..the more expensive the kit...the more quality wine you can produce. Is this true?
It sounds like everyone is also pushing for producing more fruity hard to find wines... So if I am someone who likes to purchase a 15 dollar bottle of chianti for a good italian meal... If I made a higher priced chianti kit wine...will I be disappointed?

 

[summersolstice]

Thanks for all the feedback! I think what made me question the potential quality of kit wine particularly reds, is the lack of skins. Red wines are crushed and fermented with the skins. I would imagine something must be lost when fermenting with just juice.
I have also seen that some more expensive kits offer a extra packet of skins to be added during fermentation. Has anyone tried these kits. It seems from what you are all saying..the more expensive the kit...the more quality wine you can produce. Is this true?
It sounds like everyone is also pushing for producing more fruity hard to find wines... So if I am someone who likes to purchase a 15 dollar bottle of chianti for a good italian meal... If I made a higher priced chianti kit wine...will I be disappointed?

The more expensive kits by the top kit manufacturers - WineExpert, RJ Spagnols, Heron Bay, and Cellar Craft - are usually better than lower priced kits - even those made by the same manufacturer. The reason is because they have more juice (16-18 liters rather than 8-10 liters) and because they come with crushed skin packs. Of course, there are always exceptions and a kit can certainly be screwed up. A good "middle of the road" choice are the recently developed 12 liter kits. Some of them have grape packs and are quite good and don't break the bank.

RJ Spagnols makes several different Chianti kits and their top of the line Italian Chianti Riserva is currently on sale at grapestomers.com. I would practically guarantee it would be as good as a bottle of $15 Chianti if you follow the instructions and allow it to age for a year.

 

[DUCCCC]

One other thing I haven't seen addressed in the thread is that you won't want to use all your beer stuff for wine.

I am pretty happy using a dedicated 7.9 gallon bucket for the wine's primary fermentation, as well as a 6 gallon Better Bottle™ for secondary/clearing. These pieces don't see any beer duty. I do use the standard Ale Pail with a spigot for bottling, and it's the same one I use for beer, but it doesn't hold either wine or beer long enough to impart any lasting scents or flavors.

Get a floor corker if you buy anything. If you're not sure about the investment, borrow one, but using one is so easy and foolproof, you're wasting your time and money on the lesser corking devices. I bought mine from my LHBS for under $60 and it's worth twice as much to me now.

Wine making is easy with a kit. If you want to do a cheaper kit I'd suggest sticking with a white. The Vintner's Reserve Chardonnay that SWMBO and I did was our first foray into wine, and not only was it fun, it was pretty good! My father's a wine snob and he really enjoyed the stuff, which is saying alot. He didn't call it a great wine, but a really respectable table wine he'd be happy to serve at a casual dinner at his table anytime. We took it as quite a compliment.

I've got a RJ Spagnol's '08 Aussie Shiraz in the Better Bottle™ right now that I'll be bottling tomorrow, hopefully, and I don't intend to open one of these for at least 90 days after botting, so it'll be a while, but hopefully worth the wait.

 

[Shonuff]

Just curious, if you buy a kit put their juice in a bucket a ferment it are you really making wine? I'll throw a frozen pizza in the oven, bake it at 325 for 25 min, but I don't serve it to guests as something I made myself.

But if you picked/bought and crushed your own grapes wouldn't that be similar to making a pizza from scratch?

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Just an observation about kit wines from someone who enjoys wine, but has never made any.

My father used to make kit wines. He would make red wine, mostly for the table. I never saw him make it, and saw no indication that he had a load of gear for it taking over the kitchen or anything. He would simply serve it with meals and tell us a little about it.

The only way that we could know that it was not a middle-priced shop bought wine was that we recognised the brand of shrink tops, and his poorly made labels He had previously, in the late 60's made wine from dandelions, blackberries, roadkill....all of it tasted like wombat poo. (So did his beer) Since those days though, he also learned to cook very well, so that was an obvious help. All the kit wine that he made in his later years was never anything less than good. From his experience alone, I would have no hesitation in doing a kit wine if the feeling took me.

I know thats not a lot of help, being as I don't make wine. Just a little different perspective maybe to put with all the rest.

 

[DUCCCC]

Just curious, if you buy a kit put their juice in a bucket a ferment it are you really making wine? I'll throw a frozen pizza in the oven, bake it at 325 for 25 min, but I don't serve it to guests as something I made myself.

But if you picked/bought and crushed your own grapes wouldn't that be similar to making a pizza from scratch?

I think you're a little off, in that it's slightly more complicated than a frozen pizza. Now if you're talking about using a Pilsbury crust, and sauce from a jar, but still assembling it yourself then I think the correlation becomes a little more accurate. Just the same, if you start with higher quality "crusts, cheese, sauce etc.", and take care to prepare everything properly you'll come out with a better finished product than you can purchase in some cases, and often at a lower price. I know I make a better pizza than Pizza Hut, and I like my kit wines alot more than Mogan David or Thunderbird.

 

[HomerT]

Just curious, if you buy a kit put their juice in a bucket a ferment it are you really making wine? I'll throw a frozen pizza in the oven, bake it at 325 for 25 min, but I don't serve it to guests as something I made myself.

But if you picked/bought and crushed your own grapes wouldn't that be similar to making a pizza from scratch?

No different than brewing from extract vs all grain argument. If you buy a recipe kit using extract...are you really making beer?

But what do I know, I make kit wines and extract brews. All I know is I think the end result rocks for both.:rockin: