How do I tell if my apartment can handle a 240V brewing system?

[vance]

Follow up on my older thread, but different (ish) topic. I'm moving into a new apartment in a few weeks, and seriously contemplating moving my brewing indoors. I currently brew 5 gallon batches on a propane burner outside, using single vessel BIAB. However, I'm sick of being a slave to the weather and daylight, and want to move to probably a 2 vessel HERMS system. I don't have a garage, but I do have a laundry room with a dryer (and presumably a 240V plug) just off my kitchen.

However, my knowledge with regards to practical electricity is sorely lacking. What am I looking for in this apartment to be sure I can do this safely? It's a rental, so I can't really bring an electrician in to do any changes or anything. I'm currently undecided on how I'm actually doing to do this, but I figure the first step is to see if it can be done at all without setting my house on fire.

 

[LittlejohnBrew]

You need a 240V 30A circuit. The most likely source of power would be a laundry dryer outlet. You may have other appliances on 240V circuits, but typically these outlets are not as accessible (range, furnace, etc).

So if the apartment comes with a dryer or atleast a laundry room you should be good. To be 100% sure open the breaker box and check that the dryer is on a 30A or greater breaker. See the attached photo for breaker example.

Also attached is what your dryer outlet will look like (either 4 or 3 prong) which will dictate which electric controller you will buy or build.

 

[augiedoggy]

If it's designed to work with a full sized electric dryer it has to be a 30a outlet.. it it came down to it thought even with 20a you can use a 4500w ripple with no problems.

 

[madscientist451]

If you don't have temperature control for fermenting, I'd get that before obtaining an electric brewing rig. You can do 5 gallon batches on most kitchen stoves. Making wort is the easy part, taking care of your fermentation will produce way better beer.

 

[vance]

If you don't have temperature control for fermenting, I'd get that before obtaining an electric brewing rig. You can do 5 gallon batches on most kitchen stoves. Making wort is the easy part, taking care of your fermentation will produce way better beer.

I've got everything I need to make good beer right now. I brew with propane in my backyard, have a keezer and fermenting fridge, etc. I'm just tired of being a slave to the weather for brewing - I didn't brew (on my own system) once between October and March last winter, because it was always cold/raining/dark/all three.

 

[madscientist451]

I hear ya, I brew inside, mostly in the winter, usually when its dark and snowing/raining outside.
Have you considered the electric " brew in a basket" rigs? Basically its a pot with electric heating, a controller, a pump, and a metal basket that replaces the cloth BIAB bag. Your wort recirculates during the mash, then you pull the basket and turn up the heat to boil. Seems like something like that would be good for an apartment.
Here's a recirculating system, but uses a cloth bag instead of a basket:

https://www.highgravitybrew.com/sto...c-Wort-Hog-5-10-Gallon-BIAB-240V-445p3987.htm

 

[vance]

I hear ya, I brew inside, mostly in the winter, usually when its dark and snowing/raining outside.
Have you considered the electric " brew in a basket" rigs? Basically its a pot with electric heating, a controller, a pump, and a metal basket that replaces the cloth BIAB bag. Your wort recirculates during the mash, then you pull the basket and turn up the heat to boil. Seems like something like that would be good for an apartment.
Here's a recirculating system, but uses a cloth bag instead of a basket:

https://www.highgravitybrew.com/sto...c-Wort-Hog-5-10-Gallon-BIAB-240V-445p3987.htm

I've looked into eBIAB, but I'm kind of ready to move to a 2 vessel system. I've never been able to figure out my efficiency woes doing BIAB, and I enjoyed brewing on a buddy's system who has the same 2 vessel HERMS type of thing I'm imagining, so I'm just modelling this after his.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

I've looked into eBIAB, but I'm kind of ready to move to a 2 vessel system. I've never been able to figure out my efficiency woes doing BIAB, and I enjoyed brewing on a buddy's system who has the same 2 vessel HERMS type of thing I'm imagining, so I'm just modelling this after his.

With all due respect, if you can't figure out your efficiency with BIAB, then going to something more complex won't fix it. Are you getting inconsitent results, or just low efficiency? (and if so, how low?)

To answer your direct question, if you have a four-prong dryer plug on a 30A circuit, that should be enough to handle most homebrew level electrical demand.

Or get a grainfather. In retrospect, that's probably the easiest solution. I have a couple of friends who have them, and I am envious of how easy their brewdays are, and how little space their gear takes up.

 

[vance]

With all due respect, if you can't figure out your efficiency with BIAB, then going to something more complex won't fix it. Are you getting inconsitent results, or just low efficiency? (and if so, how low?)

To answer your direct question, if you have a four-prong dryer plug on a 30A circuit, that should be enough to handle most homebrew level electrical demand.

Or get a grainfather. In retrospect, that's probably the easiest solution. I have a couple of friends who have them, and I am envious of how easy their brewdays are, and how little space their gear takes up.

Generally low, some inconsistency. I think my efficiency is usually 50-55%. I've never figured out how to get good volume readings, though, so I've never been able to lock down a firm and consistent number. I've tried the etching method, which never worked for me, and I eventually made a dipstick but it's not the most precise method. Part of this project would be buying a kettle with volume markings on it, which should help me figure out a reliable efficiency number.

I have two LHBS I buy grain from - one you mill your own, the other mills for you. I've tried adjusting the gap at the shop you mill your own, and I've tried asking them to double mill at the other one, and never noticed any difference, my efficiency is just always ridiculously low, so I'm pretty much done with BIAB.

I've looked at the grainfather/similar systems... in some ways, they're appealing, but I want to improve my (sorely lacking) DIY skills with a project like this, and they're a little too hands off for my taste anyways..

 

[Jayjay1976]

Check your apartment kitchen to confirm it's wired with two separate, 20A circuits. Most are as that is a code requirement in most of the country since the late 1970's. If so, then you can build a controller with dual SSR's driving two separate 110V, 2000W elements each powered by its own circuit, and presto, 220V performance right in your kitchen with easy access to water, drain, etc.

Beats brewing in a laundry room or garage.

 

[vance]

Check your apartment kitchen to confirm it's wired with two separate, 20A circuits. Most are as that is a code requirement in most of the country since the late 1970's. If so, then you can build a controller with dual SSR's driving two separate 110V, 2000W elements each powered by its own circuit, and presto, 220V performance right in your kitchen with easy access to water, drain, etc.

Beats brewing in a laundry room or garage.

The laundry room is just off my kitchen, so I was planning to run an extension cord so I could brew on my counter (have a nice big island with the sink). I need to double check the distance once I move in but it'd probably be 10-15 feet. From my understanding 240V extension cords are a bit pricy, but do exist.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Generally low, some inconsistency. I think my efficiency is usually 50-55%. I've never figured out how to get good volume readings, though, so I've never been able to lock down a firm and consistent number. I've tried the etching method, which never worked for me, and I eventually made a dipstick but it's not the most precise method. Part of this project would be buying a kettle with volume markings on it, which should help me figure out a reliable efficiency number.

I have two LHBS I buy grain from - one you mill your own, the other mills for you. I've tried adjusting the gap at the shop you mill your own, and I've tried asking them to double mill at the other one, and never noticed any difference, my efficiency is just always ridiculously low, so I'm pretty much done with BIAB.

I've looked at the grainfather/similar systems... in some ways, they're appealing, but I want to improve my (sorely lacking) DIY skills with a project like this, and they're a little too hands off for my taste anyways..

To me, if you are 55% efficiency, you have a process issue, a grain issue, or a math issue, and not an equipment issue. My last BIAB was at 78%, double-crushing grain at my LHBS using their grain mill. My entire process was: heat water, add grain, stir/check temp every 20 min for an hour, pull the bag and drain, and then boil. No sparge, didn't use my HLT or mash tun, just a bag and a kettle and a burner.

I would start looking for a grain mill first, if I was in your position. Also, depending on how much you brew, a grain mill pays for itself if you buy in bulk in about a year.

I hope I am not coming across as a jerk - I don't mean to be. My concern is that you go out, spend a bunch of money, build a complex system, and then get 55% efficiency there. Brewing is a process, and better gear <> better beer. Figure out what is going wonky in your process, then get distracted by the shiny.

Also, by the time I finish my e-BIAB, I will probably have spent more than a grainfather, with less nifty functionality. YMMV.

 

[vance]

To me, if you are 55% efficiency, you have a process issue, a grain issue, or a math issue, and not an equipment issue. My last BIAB was at 78%, double-crushing grain at my LHBS using their grain mill. My entire process was: heat water, add grain, stir/check temp every 20 min for an hour, pull the bag and drain, and then boil. No sparge, didn't use my HLT or mash tun, just a bag and a kettle and a burner.

I would start looking for a grain mill first, if I was in your position. Also, depending on how much you brew, a grain mill pays for itself if you buy in bulk in about a year.

I hope I am not coming across as a jerk - I don't mean to be. My concern is that you go out, spend a bunch of money, build a complex system, and then get 55% efficiency there. Brewing is a process, and better gear <> better beer. Figure out what is going wonky in your process, then get distracted by the shiny.

Also, by the time I finish my e-BIAB, I will probably have spent more than a grainfather, with less nifty functionality. YMMV.

Oh yeah, I've got an issue somewhere - my hunch is it's a combination of milling and inconsistent volumes readings. I actually have been borrowing my club's mill for a while, but my drill is old and shitty and can't actually power it, so I've never got around to using it.

Really though, I'm not super worried about efficiency - I'd like to increase it, but my motivation for getting a new system is probably 85% being able to brew inside without worrying about weather, 10% wanting to improve my DIY skills in the process, and *maybe* 5% improving my efficiency. If I just cared about efficiency I'd buy a grain mill and a kettle with volume markings and be done with it.

 

[bleme]

You can get higher efficiency with BIAB than any other process because it is the only process that allows you to squeeze the grains dry. It is also the most compact method, which is pretty important in an apartment. I sometimes brew with a friend who has a beautiful all-electric, 2-vessel RIMS system and he can't touch my 90% efficiency.

 

[Jayjay1976]

The laundry room is just off my kitchen, so I was planning to run an extension cord so I could brew on my counter (have a nice big island with the sink). I need to double check the distance once I move in but it'd probably be 10-15 feet. From my understanding 240V extension cords are a bit pricy, but do exist.

Let's hope your next apartment also has a laundry room adjacent to the kitchen. My setup will work in just about any residential kitchen and uses inexpensive standard gauge cabling.

 

[LittlejohnBrew]

The laundry room is just off my kitchen, so I was planning to run an extension cord so I could brew on my counter (have a nice big island with the sink). I need to double check the distance once I move in but it'd probably be 10-15 feet. From my understanding 240V extension cords are a bit pricy, but do exist.

You can get extension cords online for a decent price. I got mine off Amazon from MPI tools for less than $2 a foot (3-wire). Its a little more expensive for the typical 4-wire setup.

You're gonna hear varying arguments with regards to 240v vs 120v dual elements. At the end of the day you have to figure out what works best for your situation which it sounds like it's best to wait until after you move to your new apartment.

One thing I forgot to mention and I do not believe others have either is that you need to ensure the controller is plugged into a circuit protected with a GFCI (ground fault current interruptor). With 120v setup that is easily achieve since your kitchen outlets should be protected and you will know if it has an outlet with test and reset buttons. Some outlets may not have these buttons but are still protected. To verify you can buy a GFCI tester for a few bucks online or at a local big box stores.

For 240v it's a little trickier. The dryer outlet is not protected and the most common method to get protection is to install an external spa panel that includes a gfci breaker. For my setup I got extremely lucky and found a portable in-line GFCI breaker with 25ft 10 gauge cable built in for $67.

 

[z-bob]

I brew on my kitchen stove most of the time. If it's too hot in the house for that, I'll brew out on the back deck (but I got rained on last time i did that)

I bought one of these last year (I don't remember it costing this much) and it makes all the difference in the world https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotrod.htm -- both trying to brew on the stove, and to conserve propane when I brew outside. I used a 120V 1650W water heater element and I plug it in to the kitchen counter outlet, or run an extension cord from the garage when I brew outside.

There's no temperature controller on it, it runs full blast, and I control the boil by turning down the gas burner.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I brew on my kitchen stove most of the time. If it's too hot in the house for that, I'll brew out on the back deck (but I got rained on last time i did that)

I bought one of these last year (I don't remember it costing this much) and it makes all the difference in the world https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotrod.htm -- both trying to brew on the stove, and to conserve propane when I brew outside. I used a 120V 1650W water heater element and I plug it in to the kitchen counter outlet, or run an extension cord from the garage when I brew outside.

There's no temperature controller on it, it runs full blast, and I control the boil by turning down the gas burner.

My dual element setup uses two of those 1650W units. I run them on a 20A circuit but they would be fine on a 15A since they don't actually pull 1650.

 

[vance]

Are there any small projects that can teach me useful skills for this? I've basically come to the conclusion that I have no idea what I'm doing (in terms of building a controller) and so I'm just gonna say screw it and shell out for a prebuilt controller. I still want to learn what all of this madness is eventually but I have no idea where first start with smaller projects to get my hands dirty. Any ideas?

 

[LittlejohnBrew]

Are there any small projects that can teach me useful skills for this? I've basically come to the conclusion that I have no idea what I'm doing (in terms of building a controller) and so I'm just gonna say screw it and shell out for a prebuilt controller. I still want to learn what all of this madness is eventually but I have no idea where first start with smaller projects to get my hands dirty. Any ideas?

You could consider the inkbird ipb-16 controller. It's prebuilt, but there are some minor mods you could do to improve it which would give you some experience doing minor electrical work. Looks like it supports up to 240v 12A or 120v 15A.

You would likely need a second heat source so either install a second element and make a simple switch enclosure which again would give you some experience or you could buy a hot rod heat stick.

This setup probably isn't ideal, but would give you a blend of prebuilt and DIY.

 

[madscientist451]

There's a couple of (cheap) things you can try to boost your BIAB efficiency issues.
Efficiency problems that I've encountered have usually been caused by using too much water, over estimating the grain absorption and boil evaporation and then ending up with more wort than I expected.
#1 Don't worry about etchings on a kettle, buy a gallon jug of water at the store ($1 or less) and use the jug to measure your that you are using.
#2 Do a 1/2 hour boil test to figure how much evaporation you actually get.
#3 Use your water jug to measure water into your fermenter and make marks with duct tape or something similar. Your volume of wort to the fermenter is important to know if you are trying to establish what your efficiency is.
#4 Stir the mash, dunk the bag and/or manually recirculate the wort.
#5 If you just can't figure it out, adding some more grain to the recipe is much cheaper than buying a fancy rig. You'd have to brew something like 1000 batches to break even.
E-BIAB rigs that use a circulation pump (supposedly) don't have efficiency problems, but your results could be different.....
Back to the original question: Your dryer circuit shouldn't have any problem handling the load from a simple 5 gallon brewing rig. But the best thing do to is check with the manufacturer of the unit you are interested in and see what requirements they specify.

 

[vance]

There's a couple of (cheap) things you can try to boost your BIAB efficiency issues.
Efficiency problems that I've encountered have usually been caused by using too much water, over estimating the grain absorption and boil evaporation and then ending up with more wort than I expected.
#1 Don't worry about etchings on a kettle, buy a gallon jug of water at the store ($1 or less) and use the jug to measure your that you are using.
#2 Do a 1/2 hour boil test to figure how much evaporation you actually get.
#3 Use your water jug to measure water into your fermenter and make marks with duct tape or something similar. Your volume of wort to the fermenter is important to know if you are trying to establish what your efficiency is.
#4 Stir the mash, dunk the bag and/or manually recirculate the wort.
#5 If you just can't figure it out, adding some more grain to the recipe is much cheaper than buying a fancy rig. You'd have to brew something like 1000 batches to break even.
E-BIAB rigs that use a circulation pump (supposedly) don't have efficiency problems, but your results could be different.....
Back to the original question: Your dryer circuit shouldn't have any problem handling the load from a simple 5 gallon brewing rig. But the best thing do to is check with the manufacturer of the unit you are interested in and see what requirements they specify.

I've done or do all of these things, with no luck in efficiency. I'm really not building a new rig just to get more efficiency though, so I'm not stressed about it.

 

[Swamproad]

I have been doing BIAB and EBIAB for about 10 years. I found that low efficiency meant my grind was not right. I check the gap with a credit card every time I use my mill. The other issue I found was that thermometers can be way off. I eliminated that problem when I bought the Thermapen MK4. Last year I went to 12 gallon batches with a 20 gallon Spike kettle and the Brew Bag. I didn't notice any drop in efficiency. I don't recirculate as I don't see the need. I just stir about every 30 minutes. I do use a pump to transfer to my conical.