How Did This "Hard water is good for dark ales" myth get started?

[GilaMinumBeer]

Beers are brewed all over the world with waters of differing permanent hardness. Good beers are made with all of them. If you want to say that, for example, high sulfate PLUS a fermentation at 80F gives a bad flavor that wouldn't happen with just the 80F temp, I can believe that.
Jim

Are you assuming that NONE of these beers are being made with water that has been altered by the brewer? This is rare these days, which is why water profiles are useless for trying to clone a beer from a region unless you know the profile of the brew water.

 

[KYB]

I'll post this again since you have ignored it.

The presence of calcium sulfate (CaSO4) or calcium carbonate (CaCO3) can give beer a slightly astringent or bitter flavor. Calcium (Ca+2) and magnesium (Mg+2) in large amounts will produce a metallic flavor. Too much sodium (Na+) can start to give beer a salty flavor. Chloride (Cl-) alone or combined with sodium gives a more full-
bodied flavor.

These ions also affect the pH of your water. A high pH in the mash can cause poor extraction rates, darken the wort, and leach more tannins into your mash.

Hardness, either temporary or permanent, is not intrinsically good or bad. For pale ales, permanent hardness is good. For dark beers, temporary hardness is better. For Pilsen-style beers, neither is good.

http://www.byo.com/stories/recipes/article/indices/56-water/1510-the-elements-of-brewing-water

I don't know about you, but astringent, salty, and metallic are not flavors I am looking for in my lighter beers. I would consider them bad, off, or weird flavors. I couldn't pinpoint what I was tasting, but my friend said it was almost metallic tasting, which rung a bell in my head thinking it was an issue with my water.

 

[motobrewer]

all I want to know is, why are jdc's posts always formatted strangely?

 

[mmb]

I'm sorry, but I have to challenge this too. It just doesn't make sense. Beers are brewed all over the world with waters of differing permanent hardness. Good beers are made with all of them. If you want to say that, for example, high sulfate PLUS a fermentation at 80F gives a bad flavor that wouldn't happen with just the 80F temp, I can believe that.

Why the insistence for the 80°F temp point? That's just a variable and if it effects the fermentation profile at 80°F it would effect at a different temp point.

Yes, good beer is brewed all over the world but there are reasons why traditional styles developed specific to regions and water composition had a large part to do with development of those styles.

 

[motobrewer]

Beers are brewed all over the world with waters of differing permanent hardness.

I think he just contradicted himself right there.

yeah, they are, which is why certain styles are more prominent in certain areas.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

If you want to say that, for example, high sulfate PLUS a fermentation at 80F gives a bad flavor that wouldn't happen with just the 80F temp, I can believe that.

So, how do you explain away Monastic brewing results? IIRC, it's Achel or Rochefort that has extremely high sulfate (balanced by chloride additions) and we ALL know of the fermentation regime for those heavenly concoctions.

The ions make a HUGE difference if a balance is not achieved.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

all I want to know is, why are jdc's posts always formatted strangely?

To make quoting annoying.

 

[DRoyLenz]

As to the bleach/vinegar debate, you guys are arguing the same point. Yes, mixed incorrectly, it can be dangerous. On the other hand, if mixed correctly, yes, it CAN be used as a slightly more effective santizing agent then bleach alone. However, nobody on this forum is recommending this as a good solution, especially with all the no-rinse sanitizers out there. Since it seems we all agree, can we drop this moot argument?

As to the original intent of this thread, which I am finding very interesting, considering I'm trying to learn more about brewing chemistry. Is there confusion surrounding the definitions of "bad" flavors? Does brewing darker beers with highly alkaline water produce the same flavors as if you were brewing lighter beers, and it's just that those flavors complement darker beers, but come off negatively in lighter beers?

Or is it that the flavors produced in light vs. dark beers are completely different, and the outcome in the lighter beer is a "bad" or "off" flavor?

 

[Yooper]

As to the original intent of this thread, which I am finding very interesting, considering I'm trying to learn more about brewing chemistry. Is there confusion surrounding the definitions of "bad" flavors? Does brewing darker beers with highly alkaline water produce the same flavors as if you were brewing lighter beers, and it's just that those flavors complement darker beers, but come off negatively in lighter beers?

Or is it that the flavors produced in light vs. dark beers are completely different, and the outcome in the lighter beer is a "bad" or "off" flavor?

Water chemistry is fascinating, and there are lots of good sources for information. From How to Brew by John Palmer, along with his spreadsheets and nomograph, to Basic Brewing Radio podcasts, there is a wealth of information on it. I was just in my car, listening to an old Basic Brewing podcast from July 12, 2007 where John Palmer was talking about residual alkalinity and its effects on two beers- a pale ale and a stout. I recommend giving that a listen. Also, Kaiser (that's his HBT ID) has some interesting articles on water chemistry, as well as a spreadsheet that can help you learn about water chemistry in brewing. -th- (again, his HBT ID) has a very helpful spreadsheet on water chemistry, and Bobby_M has videos explaining how to use them to adjust for certain beers.

I have hard water with high residual alkalinity. That means I can make some kick ass stouts without any water modification. That's mostly because of the buffering capability of dark roasted grains. My pH is in a good range with darker malts. However, I make mostly APAs and IPAs, so I have to "dilute" my tap water with RO water and add salts back to it to get the right amount of calcium, sulfate, and chloride. Otherwise, my palest colored beers are a bit harsh and astringent. My kolsch particularly is harsh and astringent without adjusting my water. My mash pH is too high, in those cases.

 

[Bobby_M]

Here I am thinking that I finally figured out how to make a good light beer by caring for residual alkalinity in my mash water profile but it turns out I was all wrong. Despite several successful batches following water treatment and RO dilution, I guess I'll go back to plain tap water and just hope that the chemistry will just work itself out.

 

[Yooper]

Here I am thinking that I finally figured out how to make a good light beer by caring for residual alkalinity in my mash water profile but it turns out I was all wrong. Despite several successful batches following water treatment and RO dilution, I guess I'll go back to plain tap water and just hope that the chemistry will just work itself out.

As long as you don't use dry yeast, or ferment at 80 degrees, that should be fine.

 

[Desert_Sky]

"Hard" and "alkaline" aren't interchangeable terms.

But....my woman loves it when I get all worked up and alkaline

err, wait. Ok you win, so theyre not interchangeable

 

[Rhoobarb]

USMCruz, is this really you?

 

[jdc2]

Why the insistence for the 80°F temp point? That's just a variable and if it effects the fermentation profile at 80°F it would effect at a different temp point.

I don't insist on 80F, it's just a high number. How about 79F?
All chemical reactions produce more byproducts at higher
temperatures. You are going to get more byproducts at 80 than
at 65.
Jim

 

[Yooper]

I don't insist on 80F, it's just a high number. How about 79F?
All chemical reactions produce more byproducts at higher
temperatures. You are going to get more byproducts at 80 than
at 65.
Jim

Definitely. That's why none of us would consider fermenting at 80. Unless we were making a certain saison or Belgian.

 

[Homercidal]

I think that all of us agree that water affects the flavor of beer. I think we all agree that there are more important things besides water to focus our attention on.

However, once we are using proper techniques, like sanitation, temperature control, pitching rates; perhaps water is the next step?

You see, different chemistry in water does affect flavor. And I KNOW you aren't going to tell us that it doesn't. I think that is a point we can all agree on. What most on here are trying to explain, is that certain things in water, affect certain flavor aspects in the finished beer. Not only is there science behind it all (Lots of chemists work at breweries all over the world) but lots of proven flavor testing back it up as well.

There is a reason that certain beers were made in certain areas, even back before anyone had the knowledge to mess with their water. All they knew is that the beer that they make in that other place was harsh, or had funny flavors when brewed with their water. They used other malts and made a more enjoyable beer.

Eventually science gave us the reasons why.

 

[jdc2]

Definitely. That's why none of us would consider fermenting at 80. Unless we were making a certain saison or Belgian.

What does making belgian or saison have to do with making a clean
tasting light beer?
Jim

 

[jdc2]

I think that all of us agree that water affects the flavor of beer. I think we all agree that there are more important things besides water to focus our attention on.

However, once we are using proper techniques, like sanitation, temperature control, pitching rates; perhaps water is the next step?

You see, different chemistry in water does affect flavor. And I KNOW you aren't going to tell us that it doesn't. I think that is a point we can all agree on. What most on here are trying to explain, is that certain things in water, affect certain flavor aspects in the finished beer. Not only is there science behind it all (Lots of chemists work at breweries all over the world) but lots of proven flavor testing back it up as well.

There is a reason that certain beers were made in certain areas, even back before anyone had the knowledge to mess with their water. All they knew is that the beer that they make in that other place was harsh, or had funny flavors when brewed with their water. They used other malts and made a more enjoyable beer.

Eventually science gave us the reasons why.

I think you need go back and reread my posts. I'm not arguing that
water chemistry doesn't change flavor, I'm arguing that water chemistry
is the last thing you should look at when trying to rid your light beer
of off flavors.
The original poster in the RO thread complained about off flavors
in his light beers, but not in his dark. He gave his water analysis,
it was perfectly ok, not too hard, not too alkaline. Another poster
tries to tell him that he needs more sulphates because it supposedly
makes dark beers taste better. I try to tell them that dark malts
hide off flavors, and Uncle Festus tries to tell me that it doesn't,
that I'm ridiculous, etc and moves my thread out of brew science,
then tries to deny that bleach and vinegar aren't a safe combination.
This entire discussion has been so idiotic it's beyond belief.
Jim

 

[Rushis]

I don't insist on 80F, it's just a high number. How about 79F?
All chemical reactions produce more byproducts at higher
temperatures. You are going to get more byproducts at 80 than
at 65.
Jim

No, that is just wrong. Some chemical reactions produce more byproducts at higher temperatures. Many reactions require high temperatures to obtain any products. Your insistence on comparing a metabolic transformation to synthetic chemistry is off-base.

 

[motobrewer]

I said you are not going to get bad flavors from ions like sulphate, Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, and you are not.
Jim

I'm not arguing that water chemistry doesn't change flavor...

i'm so glad this thread's not dead. now i have something to do this afternoon!

 

[Nyxator]

This is anecdotal, but messing with the sulfate/chloride ratio of my water had a HUGE impact on the harsh bitter taste I was getting from light, hoppy beers.

Let's start by saying that the water where I live is pretty bad, so I've been brewing with RO water and adding salts. I did this for a long time with a limited understanding of how to do it right. Getting my chloride/sulfate ratio under control probably had the biggest impact on the taste of my beer out of everything else I've tried, and that includes fermenting at 78°F when I first started.

I think it's a very valid conclusion to jump to when someone complains about harsh tasting light beers.

I also think that the beers that became popular in various parts of the world evolved there because of the water, not the other way around. Stouts are popular in Dublin because of the alkalinity of their water, etc.

 

[KYB]

I think you need go back and reread my posts. I'm not arguing that
water chemistry doesn't change flavor, I'm arguing that water chemistry
is the last thing you should look at when trying to rid your light beer
of off flavors.
The original poster in the RO thread complained about off flavors
in his light beers, but not in his dark. He gave his water analysis,
it was perfectly ok, not too hard, not too alkaline. Another poster
tries to tell him that he needs more sulphates because it supposedly
makes dark beers taste better. I try to tell them that dark malts
hide off flavors, and Uncle Festus tries to tell me that it doesn't,
that I'm ridiculous, etc and moves my thread out of brew science,
then tries to deny that bleach and vinegar aren't a safe combination.
This entire discussion has been so idiotic it's beyond belief.
Jim

Seriously? Also, in the rest of that post you are manipulating what exactly was said and in what context.

I said you are not going
to get bad flavors from ions like sulphate, Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, and you
are not. Poster in the RO thread and another thread last year seemed
to think that sulphates and permanent hardness were making their
beer taste bad, and it doesn't. It may make a beer you want to
taste like Harpoon Ale taste like Samuel Smith's Pale Ale, but it won't
be bad.
Jim

There shouldn't be any unpleasant off flavors due to ions.
Jim

Second, you seemed to be complaining about "weird" flavors in
your light beers. I assume that means "bad" flavors, if not, my
apologies. But there shouldn't be any "bad" flavors due to water
hardness. Different from soft, but not bad. Usually you are
adjusting water because you want to duplicate a commercial
beer exactly, so you have to get the ionic concentration right.
If you don't, the beer won't be "bad", it will just not taste
the same as the beer you were trying to duplicate.

Add a bunch of salt to your water next time and tell me ions don't impact flavor.

Do I really need to quote BYO again? You seem to be ignoring that article. My water is hard. I am waiting on specifics, but I bet it has a lot of calcium in it. Calcium in large amounts produces a metallic flavor. That is weird and unpleasant to me, and very noticeable in a light beer. Every light beer I have brewed has had the same off flavor in it.

 

[jdc2]

Add a bunch of salt to your water next time and tell me ions don't impact flavor.

Adding a bunch of salt isn't the issue. The issue is whether your water
as it stands is causing your light beers to taste funny. Obviously, if you
add a huge amount of any salt, much greater than is naturally found in
any tap water, you will have a funny flavor.

Do I really need to quote BYO again? You seem to be ignoring that article. My water is hard. I am waiting on specifics, but I bet it has a lot of calcium in it. Calcium in large amounts produces a metallic flavor. That is weird and unpleasant to me, and very noticeable in a light beer. Every light beer I have brewed has had the same off flavor in it.

Do I need to quote your own and Bobby M's posts again? I guess I do.

Ca Mg Na Cl SO4 CaCO3
Mash Water Profile: 60 13 53 113 89 43

Yea I guess it would be best to add some things. How's this profile look for those beers?

Then Bobby M says:

Too much Na and Cl, not enough SO4.

I'd like something closer to Ca 60, Mg 15, Na 20, Cl 50, SO4 150 for a nice light hoppy beer.

So now he's telling you to make it even harder with sulfate, which
is the opposite of what you seem to want to do now. I was trying
to point out that your water is fine as is, it should be fine for most
beers unless you are trying to make a Samuel Smith Pale Ale clone,
and your taste problems are probably due to something else, like
too high a temperature for the fermentation, or too high a temp
for that particular yeast. I would try fermenting at 62 and see
what you get, if you are not already that low, or try changing the
yeast. Every yeast puts out different flavors, you have to
experiment to get the flavor you want. It took me a while to
figure out that Wyeast American ale isn't what I like, and that
Wyeast London III gave me the flavor I wanted in all my beers,
light or dark.
Jim

 

[wildwest450]

Aren't you the same cat who was pointlessly arguing that dry yeast was garbage?

You are a troll, plain and simple. Bad troll!

 

[Bobby_M]

What conclusion I'm coming to is that I need to avoid any thread that you post in because your style of discourse makes me murder hookers.

Chemist or not, your reading comprehension is horrible.

My response about adding salts was in response to his attempt to build a water profile from RO base, NOT to his questionable tap water for which he did NOT post all the specifics.

 

[KYB]

Adding a bunch of salt isn't the issue. The issue is whether your water
as it stands is causing your light beers to taste funny. Obviously, if you
add a huge amount of any salt, much greater than is naturally found in
any tap water, you will have a funny flavor.

The point is, add a lot of a certain ion and it will be very noticeable. I have a lot of calicum in my water, much more than the city of Pilsen, so it will be noticeable in a light beer.

So now he's telling you to make it even harder with sulfate, which
is the opposite of what you seem to want to do now. I was trying
to point out that your water is fine as is...

You do realize that this post:

Ca Mg Na Cl SO4 CaCO3
Mash Water Profile: 60 13 53 113 89 43

Yea I guess it would be best to add some things. How's this profile look for those beers?

Is not my tap water profile. It was a water profile I came up with by adding ions to RO water.

My tap water report says this - I am waiting on a more detailed report:
Hardness levels of water leaving our water
treatment plants range from 110 (hard) to 326 parts per
million (very hard)

 

[Bobby_M]

And therefore jdc cannot possibly know if your water is "fine" for light beer unless his position is indeed that any water can be fine for any beer. Of course, that notion is pure nonsense.

 

[jmo88]

jdc2,

Have you brewed many light beers and dark beers using adjusted water and unadjusted water and blind taste-tested them? Your arguments, so far, have been agreeable to zero brewers who have posted on this thread because they have all experienced the difference first hand – not because they have chemistry degrees. Do yourself a favor and perform some experiments. It should be more educational for you than arguing.

 

[TheWhaleShark]

@jdc2: If your water contains an excess of a particular ion, it will certainly lead to off-flavors and other ill effects. Too high of a sulfate content? That will lead to excessive bitterness and astringency. Too much chloride? It'll taste like bleach.

The real issue with water chemistry relates back to mash pH (for the most part). Water with a greater residual alkalinity has a higher pH than other water. Lighter roasted grains do less to acidify the mash than darker roasted grains. So, if you have very alkaline water and you try to make a light beer, your mash pH will be too high. That will inhibit enzyme activity, because the enzymes will begin to denature once they're outside of their optimal pH range.

Likewise, if you have very soft water which is low in bicarbonate (and hence has a low alkalinity), and you attempt to brew a dark beer, your dark grains will acidify the mash too much, and again you will have a poor conversion.

You need more alkalinity to balance the acidity from dark grains. You need less alkalinity with lighter grains in order to ensure that your mixture is not too alkaline.

Does that clear it up for you?

 

[Grinder12000]

It's like his other threads where he just disagrees with others, not really listening to anybody.


OH - I see wildwest450 has it correct - a troll. I called it - 1st in on page 2 LOL