How Did This "Hard water is good for dark ales" myth get started?

[jdc2]

jdc2,

Have you brewed many light beers and dark beers using adjusted water and unadjusted water and blind taste-tested them? Your arguments, so far, have been agreeable to zero brewers who have posted on this thread because they have all experienced the difference first hand – not because they have chemistry degrees. Do yourself a favor and perform some experiments. It should be more educational for you than arguing.

As I"ve already said at least twice, I've brewed my own light and dark beers
with and without salts, but just tasted them, not blind tasted. The beers
with added sulfate have a harsher kind of bitterness, exactly what the books
say. My pale ale with added sulfates tasted similar to Samuel Smiths's Pale
Ale, at least in the character of the bitterness. I could make the same
kind of remark you just made: Have you ever brewed the same light beer at
different temperatures and with different yeasts to see if that is what
is causing a problem? I wonder why light lagers are fermented at 44-50
degrees? Why is it that Ashton Lewis says in his homebrew book that he
ferments all his ales at 64? Why do breweries invest so much in jacketed
fermenters which can control the temperature to within a tenth of a degree?
Is it possible that higher temperatures lead to off flavors? Gosh I dunno.....
Why is it that some stout breweries can get away with fermenting
at 75? Is it possible the dark malts hide or blend well with the flavors
produced by the yeast at that temperature? Gosh, I dunno.....
Jim

 

[Grinder12000]

Come on guys - let's lock this thread down - it's anal.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Come on guys - let's lock this thread down - it's anal.

Yeah, agreed. Like a friend of mine once said, about ******** who don't really want to have a conversation and just want attention, "don't feed the freaks".

 

[motobrewer]

no way, i find it hilarious

original topic:

" How Did This "Hard water is good for dark ales" myth get started?"

OP's last post:

"massive whining about fermentation temperature or something."

is jdc trying to steer people away from his obvious self-contradiction? gosh, i donno...

I said you are not going
to get bad flavors from ions like sulphate, Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, and you
are not.

I think you need go back and reread my posts. I'm not arguing that
water chemistry doesn't change flavor...

 

[z987k]

I think it needs to be said that the only "off" flavor your going to get from incorrect ions is astringency if you mash pH is to high. All else will be flavor profile on your palate. Something that will take an okay beer to outstanding... but certainly never off.
Yeast do NOT uptake Ca, Mg, SO4, Cl etc and produce a wide array of byproducts that would otherwise not be there. Someone said that. It is false.

I think jdc2 has a point though. I have judged far too many beers to believe that most homebrewers have a handle on the basic things. I would be willing to bet a much larger percentage on this site do, but in the general population, that is not the case. Fermentation temperature and pitching rate are usually the two things that jump out, and before you get those under control, forget about the damn water, you need to get that temp down first! If astringency is you problem only then would I suggest looking into water pH AFTER we look at your sparge technique.

This is of course moot if you do really know what you are doing, but like I said, a good portion of homebrewers do not.
Ever had an estery pilsner? How about a butter bomb stout?
Come to find out later that the pils was fermented with ale yeast. I mean come on wtf are you doing calling that a pils and then entering it?

 

[Rushis]

But still fun....

Bleach is perfectly effective without acid. It may be marginally
quicker acting with acid, but the difference wouldn't be noticed
by a human. On the other hand, the death of the brewer due
to chlorine gas formed would certainly effect the number of
batches he gets to finish.

...I'm going to pay attention to my own knowledge
of chemistry (in which I have two degrees). Using vinegar with
bleach is idiotic.

Two degree's? Congrats! :rockin:
Every good discussion starts with a little degree dropping...

Being an educated individual you should be aware of the mechanism by which hypochlorite results in microbial destruction. As it is pertinent to your above statements, I'ld like to point out some relevant reactions:

1) 2HOCl -> 2HCl + O2
2) HCl + HOCl <-> Cl2 + H2O

Both of these reactions contribute to the microbicidal activity of household bleach: 1) singlet oxygen is a powerful oxidant that will disrupt lipid bilayers and oxidize surface proteins and 2) chlorine can freely diffuse the cell membrane, allowing it to chlorinate proteins within the cell.

Balanced reaction from #1 and #2: 3HOCl -> HCl + O2 + Cl2 + H2O
Solubility of chlorine gas: aprox. 7g Cl2/1 L H2O
Reccomended sanitizing concentration of sodium hypochlorite: 1%

Calculate the theoretical yield of Cl2
Assumption: pH <= 5.4 for 99+% formation of HOCl
Solutuion prepared with distilled water

(10 g NaOCl per 1 L H2O) / (77.44 g NaOCl per mole) = 0.129 M NaOCl
0.129M NaOCl @ pH = 5.4 -> 0.129 M concentration of HOCl
1 mole Cl2 / 3 moles HOCl * 0.129 M HOCl = 0.043 M Cl2
0.043 M Cl2 * 70.096 g Cl2 per mole = 3.01 g Cl2 / 1 L H2O

Translation: No chlorine gas will evolved at proper sanitizing concentrations under strongly acidic pH conditions. Or, in other words, the brewer lives.

Done properly the pH of the hypochlorite solution can be safely adjusted to 7.4 in distilled water to maximize the generation of chlorine and singlet oxygen thereby improving the sanitizing capabilities of the solution. Commercial bleach solutions have a pH = aprox. 12. If your tap water is sufficiently buffered to maintain a pH = 7.4-8.4 after making a 1% bleach solution, there is no reason to add additional acid. However, if the sanitizing solution has a pH > 8.4, reducing the alkalinity of the solution with a dilute weak acid (acetic acid, i.e. vinegar) can improve the effectiveness.

 

[jdc2]

But still fun....





Two degree's? Congrats! :rockin:
Every good discussion starts with a little degree dropping...

I didn't start with degree dropping, I began with some common-sense
advice concerning off-flavors in light beers. Then Uncle Fester removed
my posts on the Brew Science forum saying

I moved this thread out of "brew science" since it seems like there is little in this thread that involves actual science like water chemistry, or even the chemistry of mixing bleach and vinegar

which from my point of view was a joke.

Being an educated individual you should be aware of the mechanism by which hypochlorite results in microbial destruction. As it is pertinent to your above statements, I'ld like to point out some relevant reactions:

1) 2HOCl -> 2HCl + O2
2) HCl + HOCl <-> Cl2 + H2O

Both of these reactions contribute to the microbicidal activity of household bleach: 1) singlet oxygen is a powerful oxidant that will disrupt lipid bilayers and oxidize surface proteins and 2) chlorine can freely diffuse the cell membrane, allowing it to chlorinate proteins within the cell.

Balanced reaction from #1 and #2: 3HOCl -> HCl + O2 + Cl2 + H2O
Solubility of chlorine gas: aprox. 7g Cl2/1 L H2O
Reccomended sanitizing concentration of sodium hypochlorite: 1%

Calculate the theoretical yield of Cl2
Assumption: pH <= 5.4 for 99+% formation of HOCl
Solutuion prepared with distilled water

(10 g NaOCl per 1 L H2O) / (77.44 g NaOCl per mole) = 0.129 M NaOCl
0.129M NaOCl @ pH = 5.4 -> 0.129 M concentration of HOCl
1 mole Cl2 / 3 moles HOCl * 0.129 M HOCl = 0.043 M Cl2
0.043 M Cl2 * 70.096 g Cl2 per mole = 3.01 g Cl2 / 1 L H2O

Translation: No chlorine gas will evolved at proper sanitizing concentrations under strongly acidic pH conditions. Or, in other words, the brewer lives.

Done properly

AHAHAHAHAAAA!!! And you think some of these guys are going to
monitor pH and do it "properly"? AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

the pH of the hypochlorite solution can be safely adjusted to 7.4 in distilled water to maximize the generation of chlorine and singlet oxygen thereby improving the sanitizing capabilities of the solution. Commercial bleach solutions have a pH = aprox. 12. If your tap water is sufficiently buffered to maintain a pH = 7.4-8.4 after making a 1% bleach solution, there is no reason to add additional acid. However, if the sanitizing solution has a pH > 8.4, reducing the alkalinity of the solution with a dilute weak acid (acetic acid, i.e. vinegar) can improve the effectiveness.

But you don't need to improve the effectiveness.

http://chemistry.about.com/b/2009/02/02/why-people-mix-bleach-and-vinegar.htm

3 grams of chlorine is about 1 liter of Cl2 gas, if you want to trust that it
will all stay in solution at room temperature, and nobody uses hot steaming
water with it, be my guest. I would trust a trained chemist in a hood to work with it, but not a homebrewer. I know that's not going to stop anyone here.
Jim

 

[Yuri_Rage]

jdc, you continuously underestimate other brewers in a condescending manner. Your stance seemed to suggest that brewers are too dumb to understand water chemistry, so they should blame their own incompetence for off flavors. Now you claim that brewers are not capable of properly lowering the pH of a bleach solution. When confronted, you simply retort with, "I have a degree, therefore your assertion is idiotic."

I find your manner and tone absolutely deplorable.

 

[Yooper]

Then Uncle Fester removed
my posts on the Brew Science forum saying........

"Uncle Fester" (that's twice you've called me that- while I have called you no names or been disrespectful to you, in case you haven't noticed) removed the post from the science forum because of the trolling nature of the thread, the condescending manner, and the lack of credible data backing up your claims that the topics are myths.

I don't appreciate the Uncle Fester comments, but I will say that you are the first person to ever call me that.

You are rude, argumentative, and wrong in some of your statements. Your answer when being told of other data is "I know everything, so I'm not going to listen".

If you are happy with the quality of your beer because of your vast knowledge, that's wonderful. My beer is ok as well. Of course, by your direction, it's probably not because I have a knowledge of proper brewing techniques and water chemisty. It's because I don't use dry yeast or ferment at 80 degrees.

You can certainly have your opinions, but when you are wrong you will be challenged. That's all this is. People don't swallow your every word, so you must employ namecalling. That's not the way to win people over. Let's see the science.

Let's see the science behind your claims on low SRM beers and water chemistry. Let's see the science behind your claims on dry yeast having 30 hour lag times. Without the data to back you up, you're just a big wind bag.

 

[annasdadhockey]

Then Uncle Fester removed
my posts on the Brew Science forum saying


Quote:
I moved this thread out of "brew science" since it seems like there is little in this thread that involves actual science like water chemistry, or even the chemistry of mixing bleach and vinegar

which from my point of view was a joke.

You do realize that the uncle fester you are talking about is actually a woman, right? A Well known and beloved woman here on this forum. I guess multiple degrees don't teach you that.

Carry on.

 

[Reelale]

"Uncle Fester" (that's twice you've called me that- while I have called you no names or been disrespectful to you, in case you haven't noticed) removed the post from the science forum because of the trolling nature of the thread, the condescending manner, and the lack of credible data backing up your claims that the topics are myths.

I don't appreciate the Uncle Fester comments, but I will say that you are the first person to ever call me that.

You are rude, argumentative, and wrong in some of your statements. Your answer when being told of other data is "I know everything, so I'm not going to listen".

If you are happy with the quality of your beer because of your vast knowledge, that's wonderful. My beer is ok as well. Of course, by your direction, it's probably not because I have a knowledge of proper brewing techniques and water chemisty. It's because I don't use dry yeast or ferment at 80 degrees.

You can certainly have your opinions, but when you are wrong you will be challenged. That's all this is. People don't swallow your every word, so you must employ namecalling. That's not the way to win people over. Let's see the science.

Let's see the science behind your claims on low SRM beers and water chemistry. Let's see the science behind your claims on dry yeast having 30 hour lag times. Without the data to back you up, you're just a big wind bag.

Well said Yooper. I've always heard it's not a lie if you believe it

 

[Rushis]

AHAHAHAHAAAA!!! And you think some of these guys are going to
monitor pH and do it "properly"? AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

But you don't need to improve the effectiveness.

http://chemistry.about.com/b/2009/02/02/why-people-mix-bleach-and-vinegar.htm

3 grams of chlorine is about 1 liter of Cl2 gas, if you want to trust that it
will all stay in solution at room temperature, and nobody uses hot steaming
water with it, be my guest. I would trust a trained chemist in a hood to work with it, but not a homebrewer. I know that's not going to stop anyone here.
Jim

Measure pH? Why? what's the pKa of acetic acid? 4.5, maybe?
Given the reactions will pH = 4.5 lead to a different result than 5.4?
Still safe.

About.com isn't my defacto source for reliable information. Didn't you trust your knowledge of chemistry?
I am pleased to see that about.com corroborated the information I've provided and err'd on the sign of caution for the masses. A good example of responsible scientific blogging.

Steaming hot water, sure, let's take what most people set their hot water heater to, 140F (60C.)

Solubility of Chlorine vs. Temperature

Over 3g (nice work on the ideal gas law, btw) of chlorine is soluble at 60C. Still safe.
The chemistry works...

 

[wildwest450]

Our mods have the patience of Job. I would have dropped the hammer on this turd long ago. Anyone who continually baits this guy is a fool, let it be people.

 

[KYB]

Yea either a troll, an idiot, or both. He keeps avoiding my posts proving him wrong, and starts rambling on about yeast and bleach. By the way, my room is a steady 64-65. No more, no less. I have a thermometer in here on 24/7. I now always pitch more than enough yeast (according to Mr Malty).

 

[z987k]

But still fun....





Two degree's? Congrats! :rockin:
Every good discussion starts with a little degree dropping...

Being an educated individual you should be aware of the mechanism by which hypochlorite results in microbial destruction. As it is pertinent to your above statements, I'ld like to point out some relevant reactions:

1) 2HOCl -> 2HCl + O2
2) HCl + HOCl <-> Cl2 + H2O

Both of these reactions contribute to the microbicidal activity of household bleach: 1) singlet oxygen is a powerful oxidant that will disrupt lipid bilayers and oxidize surface proteins and 2) chlorine can freely diffuse the cell membrane, allowing it to chlorinate proteins within the cell.

Balanced reaction from #1 and #2: 3HOCl -> HCl + O2 + Cl2 + H2O
Solubility of chlorine gas: aprox. 7g Cl2/1 L H2O
Reccomended sanitizing concentration of sodium hypochlorite: 1%

Calculate the theoretical yield of Cl2
Assumption: pH <= 5.4 for 99+% formation of HOCl
Solutuion prepared with distilled water

(10 g NaOCl per 1 L H2O) / (77.44 g NaOCl per mole) = 0.129 M NaOCl
0.129M NaOCl @ pH = 5.4 -> 0.129 M concentration of HOCl
1 mole Cl2 / 3 moles HOCl * 0.129 M HOCl = 0.043 M Cl2
0.043 M Cl2 * 70.096 g Cl2 per mole = 3.01 g Cl2 / 1 L H2O

Translation: No chlorine gas will evolved at proper sanitizing concentrations under strongly acidic pH conditions. Or, in other words, the brewer lives.

Done properly the pH of the hypochlorite solution can be safely adjusted to 7.4 in distilled water to maximize the generation of chlorine and singlet oxygen thereby improving the sanitizing capabilities of the solution. Commercial bleach solutions have a pH = aprox. 12. If your tap water is sufficiently buffered to maintain a pH = 7.4-8.4 after making a 1% bleach solution, there is no reason to add additional acid. However, if the sanitizing solution has a pH > 8.4, reducing the alkalinity of the solution with a dilute weak acid (acetic acid, i.e. vinegar) can improve the effectiveness.

IDK yoop, might have to move this thread back now. There's now more science in this thread than the entire first page in the Brew Science forum.

 

[dwarven_stout]

jdc2, I can't help but notice that your profile lists you as "single".



Hmm.

 

[jdc2]

jdc, you continuously underestimate other brewers in a condescending manner. Your stance seemed to suggest that brewers are too dumb to understand water chemistry, so they should blame their own incompetence for off flavors. Now you claim that brewers are not capable of properly lowering the pH of a bleach solution. When confronted, you simply retort with, "I have a degree, therefore your assertion is idiotic."

I find your manner and tone absolutely deplorable.

Sorry you feel that way, but if you read my posts in sequence
you might have different view. And I never said that, or anything
even close to it, which is why I make any negative comments at
all. This place is filled with people who can't read and who insist
on distorting what's being said in a very negative way.
In any case, temporary hardness is good but not necessary
for mashing all grain dark beers, permanent hardness doesn't have
anything to do with off flavors in either light or dark beers.
Smart people would learn from that and move on, idiots will
complain about the "tone" in which it was said, or pass notes
about sneaking out for a smoke after the boring chemistry class.
Jim

 

[Edcculus]

I like to trust John Palmer.

Just wanted to throw in that I'm not sure I've ever seen this "myth" before. I don't claim to have any science degrees, but what I've read Palmers book is how high RA water is better for dark beers. The acidity of roasted grain will offset the RA bringing it into the proper mash pH. High RA in a all pils mash will yeild an improper mash pH and will extract tannins or polyphenols. I can see how someone might confuse RA, or another water term for hardness. As far as people claiming off flavors from bad water, I've never really seen that either. I like Jamil's explanation best. You might get a 30-40 point beer with no water modification. Water modification is what will push you up into the mid to high 40's. Especially for light lagers and darker beers.

 

[FlyGuy]

This place is filled with people who can't read and who insist on distorting what's being said in a very negative way.

permanent hardness doesn't have
anything to do with off flavors in either light or dark beers.
Smart people would learn from that and move on

Wow -- I just can't believe you made these two statements so deliberately. Not only are offending the entire community here by demeaning us, but at the same time, you make ridiculously false statements and tell us that we are idiots if we don't believe you. Please educate yourself on the basics of brewing and come back with an open mind.

 

[motobrewer]

passing notes to sneak out for a smoke? i doubt this guy's ever been to a college class.

two degrees in chem, and an about.com quote! I love it!

excuse me, but I have to get back to submitting specs, using various wikipedia articles as sources.

 

[jdc2]

I like to trust John Palmer.

I like Jamil's explanation best. You might get a 30-40 point beer with no water modification. Water modification is what will push you up into the mid to high 40's. Especially for light lagers and darker beers.

Agreed. Water modification is important if you want to duplicate
a style with some precision.
Jim

 

[olllllo]

Smart people would learn from that and move on...
Jim

Wondering if you are capable of following your own advice.

 

[Homercidal]

Sorry, I just had to LOL at the "Uncle Fester" thing. Having met Yooper, and having posted with her many, many times on this forum, I find it extremely insulting, and yet strangely humorous. If you have somehow managed to get her upset at you, then woe be unto you. And shame on you.

I hate myself for even saying this, but if you can't handle holding a discussion about brewing in a civilized manner, then perhaps you should visit some of the other brewing sites. I know The Brewing Network has some very smart folks over there, who would be more than happy to hold discourse about water chemistry.

 

[Grinder12000]

I can't help but notice that your profile lists you as "single".

LOL - Now I see why this thread is still around. THAT was funny!!

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

OH - I see wildwest450 has it correct - a troll. I called it - 1st in on page 2 LOL

I called it over a month ago.

 

[Nyxator]

Maybe I can hijack this thread and turn it into something useful. I doubt it, but I'll give it a go.

What is temporary hardness, permanent hardness, and how do they affect residual alkalinity (RA)? Many of the brewers have correctly pointed that mashing pH is effected by RA of the brewing water, which can effect conversion efficiency, but can it also lead to off-flavors?

Did I also read correctly that we all agree that sulfates can lead to harsh bitterness in beer? This was my personal experience, and since my sparging technique did not change (eliminating tannins as a possibility), I can only assume that sulfate was the culprit.

 

[Homercidal]

Maybe I can hijack this thread and turn it into something useful. I doubt it, but I'll give it a go.

What is temporary hardness, permanent hardness, and how do they affect residual alkalinity (RA)? Many of the brewers have correctly pointed that mashing pH is effected by RA of the brewing water, which can effect conversion efficiency, but can it also lead to off-flavors?

Did I also read correctly that we all agree that sulfates can lead to harsh bitterness in beer? This was my personal experience, and since my sparging technique did not change (eliminating tannins as a possibility), I can only assume that sulfate was the culprit.

I think you have it. I am not even sure that I would say that it causes "off flavors" most of the time. I think it usually manifests itself as a lack of certain flavors, or it be a "harshness".

Of course I'm talking about drinking water in general. Some water is just so high in some things that it doesn't taste good plain, and therefore you most likely don't want to brew with it anyway. Very high levels of Magnesium, for example, are said to promote loose stools. That is why Milk of Magnesia is useful for what it is used for.

 

[wildwest450]

Maybe you all should shut your pie holes and stop feeding the trolls. The fact that this thread has not been locked is an embarrassment to HBT. Jesus , how long does a pointless thread need to go on???

Yes, I've had a sh*t ton of beers tonight, but I still make more sense than the OP.:rockin:

 

[Steelers77]

Just one note, Harpoon cannot taste like Sammy Smith. Harpoon is an American IPA and Sammy smith is an English IPA. Not really an important point but it just frustrated me that he used the two beers for his comparison when no matter what water adjustments you make your not going to get one tasting like other due to the fact they have different ingedients, mash schedules, fermentation schedules, ect. Just a thought.

 

[dwarven_stout]

Just one note, Harpoon cannot taste like Sammy Smith. Harpoon is an American IPA and Sammy smith is an English IPA. Not really an important point but it just frustrated me that he used the two beers for his comparison when no matter what water adjustments you make your not going to get one tasting like other due to the fact they have different ingedients, mash schedules, fermentation schedules, ect. Just a thought.

I dunno... I had a ESB from Burton the other night, and it tasted nothing like my Stone IPA. I blame the brewers.