Hot side aeration while sparging

[okiedog]

If hot side aeration can occur at temps down to 120F, how do you avoid it during fly sparging? That has been a nagging question in the back of my mind for some time now. Whenever I see all that heated wort squirting out of a sparge arm, I can't help but think that it is being aerated in the process.

 

[Homercidal]

Have you noticed any detriment to your beers from this?

 

[wobdee]

Get rid of the sparge arm and run a hose on top of the grain bed. You can also treat your sparge water with sodium bimetasulfite, it will scavenge up the O2.

There's a lot of good info over on the German brewing forum about the role of O2 in the brewing process, take a gander.

 

[Gameface]

If hot side aeration can occur at temps down to 120F, how do you avoid it during fly sparging? That has been a nagging question in the back of my mind for some time now. Whenever I see all that heated wort squirting out of a sparge arm, I can't help but think that it is being aerated in the process.

I've never given any thought or consideration to hot side aeration. I thought it was exposed as a brewing boogeyman a long time ago.

 

[okiedog]

Have you noticed any detriment to your beers from this?

Currently, I don't use a sparge arm, but had planned on adding a pump and sparge arm when I start upgrading. I've also been looking at the sparge float ball assembly from Williams Brewing.

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/SPARGE-FLOAT-BALL-ASSEMBLY-FOR-MASH-WATER-HEATER-P3720.aspx

 

[Gameface]

I've never given any thought or consideration to hot side aeration. I thought it was exposed as a brewing boogeyman a long time ago.

Silicone tubing will float all by itself. No need to put a bobber on it.

I use lok-line for my eHERMS system so I just bend it so that the opening is very slightly submerged, but I don't do that out of concern for HSA, I don't want the wort losing any more heat than necessary to the air.

 

[KeninMN]

http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/18/is-hot-side-aeration-fact-or-fiction-exbeeriment-results/

 

[okiedog]

Get rid of the sparge arm and run a hose on top of the grain bed. You can also treat your sparge water with sodium bimetasulfite, it will scavenge up the O2.

There's a lot of good info over on the German brewing forum about the role of O2 in the brewing process, take a gander.

Are you saying that sodium bimetasulfite will de-oxidize fatty acids that have been oxidized from hot side aeration?

 

[dmtaylor]

Hot side aeration doesn't hurt anything. Yet another old brewer's tale that won't die.

 

[okiedog]

Wobdee, I'm looking for the German Brewing forum you mentioned. Could you please point me in the right direction?

 

[Yooper]

Hot wort doesn't spurt out of the sparge arm- water comes out of the sparge arm, and the wort goes into the kettle.

 

[Denny]

Get rid of the sparge arm and run a hose on top of the grain bed. You can also treat your sparge water with sodium bimetasulfite, it will scavenge up the O2.

There's a lot of good info over on the German brewing forum about the role of O2 in the brewing process, take a gander.

There's a lot of speculation there, but no solid proof.

 

[Denny]

I've never given any thought or consideration to hot side aeration. I thought it was exposed as a brewing boogeyman a long time ago.

Not necessarily. My take is that it's not problem it was once thought to be, but you should try to avoid it if possible.

 

[beersk]

Hot wort doesn't spurt out of the sparge arm- water comes out of the sparge arm, and the wort goes into the kettle.

In terms of hot side oxidation, what does it matter if it's the wort or the brewing water? It's still in your process whether there's malt sugar involved or not.

Whether it's a legitimate problem or not, is anyone's guess.

@Okiedog germanbrewing.net

 

[wobdee]

There's a lot of speculation there, but no solid proof.

I'll go by what Narziss, Kunz and Fix have to say on the subject before I believe a flawed homebrew experiment.

 

[Denny]

I'll go by what Narziss, Kunz and Fix have to say on the subject before I believe a flawed homebrew experiment.

Yes, their experiment does seem to have flaws.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'll go by what Narziss, Kunz and Fix have to say on the subject before I believe a flawed homebrew experiment.

I love how the experience of a couple two/three guys always seems to be weighted more heavily by many than the experience of tens of thousands of others. Personally I trust my own experience more than anyone else's, because not just often, but usually, the experience of others is not perfect. We all need to challenge assumptions, weigh all evidence available, and come to our own conclusions. And also we all need to recognize that even in so doing, we are likely wrong ourselves. Myself included.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I think hot side aeration in general, at the home brewing scale, is a just a myth.

 

[wobdee]

Well, I think it's real but it's not as bad as once thought. I don't think you get super off flavors from a little bit of HSA but you could lose some malt and hop flavors as well as some darkening of color. Probably not really noticeable except in lighter styles.

 

[okiedog]

Hot wort doesn't spurt out of the sparge arm- water comes out of the sparge arm, and the wort goes into the kettle.

Actually, I must have been confusing that with re-circulatiuon.

 

[okiedog]

It looks as though I have more reading and studying to do on the subject of HSA. From what I have read about HSA, melanoidins, tannins and fatty acids in wort can become oxidized and later affect the finished beer by giving up oxygen to alcohols to form aldehydes and other staling and flavor degrading compounds.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I recall Charlie Bamforth saying something along the lines that anything you could do to cause HSA is dwarfed by even minor oxidation caused post fermentation. As in, if you're getting oxidation problems, I could safely bet body parts that it's cold side (even the most minor access) before it would actually be HSA. As in, yes, it's real, but it's scarcely a problem, and at the homebrew scale, unless you're transferring under CO2 in a closed system, your open racking is going to oxidize more than HSA ever could.

 

[okiedog]

Qhrumphf, that's kinda what I thought. Boiling expels oxygen from the wort. I would think that much of the HSA oxygen that could cause oxidation would have a good chance of becoming detached and vaporized in the boil. I am just looking for answers and ways to improve my process. So far, I have been very happy with my beers except for those that I age or cold condition longer, such as Oktoberfest. I may need to concentrate on reduction of cold side aeration.

 

[okiedog]

Have you noticed any detriment to your beers from this?

Homercidal, my apologies for not fully answering your question. A couple of my beers that were lagered or aged for longer periods, such as Oktoberfest, have had judging comments mentioning papery notes. My other beers though, have not had such judging comments.

 

[Homercidal]

Homercidal, my apologies for not fully answering your question. A couple of my beers that were lagered or aged for longer periods, such as Oktoberfest, have had judging comments mentioning papery notes. My other beers though, have not had such judging comments.

I personally don't worry too much about HSA. I listened to a podcast from Charlie Bamforth who said that although it may scientifically exist, the negatives provided are much, much less than improperly handled Cold Side beer. Meaning, focus your attention on how you handle the beer after fermentation. Be gentle when bottling. Don't splash, etc.

That doesn't mean you should not at least try to be gentle when handling hot wort, but the odds of oxidation are much more likely to happen through carelessness after fermentation.

 

[Yooper]

If I remember correctly, I think Charlie B said that HSA affects the colloidal stability, quoting from DeClerck.

That affects long term aging stability, so that would explain why a long aged lager may exhibit some HSA signs while its younger version would not, and it would also explain why as homebrewers, this is rarely a concern.

 

[wobdee]

I think it's well worth it for homebrews to at least once try and eliminate HSA right from the start of your brew day with your mash in water. You may be surprised as I was.

 

[pwnshop]

I dont understand this thread really. I must be missing something.

When I mash in I stir like crazy for a few minutes, definitely mixing in tons of oxygen.
I then drain the tun and pour in my sparge water, which adds air and oxygen, and I stir like crazy again, adding even more.
Then when i collect the wort from the sparge it combines with the first runnings and there is splashing and whatnot at this point as well.

I don't think my process is really any different than others, since I learned it from videos and posts of others doing the same.

If HSA when mashing was an issue then how can we justify stirring the grains or batch sparging? HSA seems unavoidable in this process...

I dont have an opinion about HSA either way, I just don't understand how it is really avoidable.

also doesnt that oxygen come out of solution over the course of a 60-90 minute boil?

 

[Denny]

If I remember correctly, I think Charlie B said that HSA affects the colloidal stability, quoting from DeClerck.

That affects long term aging stability, so that would explain why a long aged lager may exhibit some HSA signs while its younger version would not, and it would also explain why as homebrewers, this is rarely a concern.

I was recently informed that due to recent discoveries, Bamforth is rethinking his position.

 

[kh54s10]

I dont understand this thread really. I must be missing something.

When I mash in I stir like crazy for a few minutes, definitely mixing in tons of oxygen.
I then drain the tun and pour in my sparge water, which adds air and oxygen, and I stir like crazy again, adding even more.
Then when i collect the wort from the sparge it combines with the first runnings and there is splashing and whatnot at this point as well.

I don't think my process is really any different than others, since I learned it from videos and posts of others doing the same.

If HSA when mashing was an issue then how can we justify stirring the grains or batch sparging? HSA seems unavoidable in this process...

I dont have an opinion about HSA either way, I just don't understand how it is really avoidable.

also doesnt that oxygen come out of solution over the course of a 60-90 minute boil?

I agree.
All this talk of HSA and most procedures will be sloppy in this concern anyway.

Almost all advice given to people with low efficiency posts suggest adding the sparge water then Stir like it owes you money!!!.

Almost all videos I have seen draining the mash tun into the BK have the tubing just going over the rim of the kettle, then the wort drops from there to the bottom, aerating the crap out of the wort.