Hoppy Flavour and Aroma

[S.R.S]

Hi All,
This is my 4th batch since brewing again and bottled a Beerworks President's Sierra Pale Ale Kit on 6th February which is now carbonating. https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/presidents-sierra-american-pale-ale-beerworks-craft-brewery-series/
I dry hopped with 50g Citra for 5 days at the end of fermentation.

I much prefer these flavoursome ales that you can get commercially where you can really smell and taste the hops but with the last 3 kits (different kits) using dry hop methods, I just can't get close to the taste I want.

Am I simply expecting too much from these kits and being unrealistic thinking I will achieve anything close?

thanks all

 

[jtrux]

Hi All,
This is my 4th batch since brewing again and bottled a Beerworks President's Sierra Pale Ale Kit on 6th February which is now carbonating. https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/presidents-sierra-american-pale-ale-beerworks-craft-brewery-series/
I dry hopped with 50g Citra for 5 days at the end of fermentation.

I much prefer these flavoursome ales that you can get commercially where you can really smell and taste the hops but with the last 3 kits (different kits) using dry hop methods, I just can't get close to the taste I want.

Am I simply expecting too much from these kits and being unrealistic thinking I will achieve anything close?

thanks all

Sometimes water chemistry can affect perceived hop flavors. Try brewing a batch using bottled spring water and see if the flavor profile changes. Just a thought. The quality of my beers got much better once I started using bottled spring water. Where I live they sell bottled water from the same spring Abita brewing uses.

 

[Jag75]

Really depends on the freshness of these kits . How do the hops smell when you open the package , are they nice and fresh or off color oxidized ? Another thing is what water are you using to make these kits ? When doing extract kits the water profile( salts & acids)was already done so it's best to use ro water . Your next brew wait on the dry hop addition. Wait until your beer is about 3-5 days away from being packaged then dry hop. I leave my beer in my FV for 3 weeks approx. With my IPA I dry hop on day 16 or 17 then keg on day 21. The hop profile seems better to me doing it this way . I'm not saying you have to leave your beer in the FV for 3 weeks like me , but try dry hopping later in the game .

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Nothing kills hops flavor and aroma faster than oxidation during dry hopping, conditioning, and packaging.
If you aren't controlling or limiting oxygen ingress during those stages, you will always be disappointed in the character of your late hops.
There are lots of threads on this.

 

[S.R.S]

Really depends on the freshness of these kits . How do the hops smell when you open the package , are they nice and fresh or off color oxidized ? Another thing is what water are you using to make these kits ? When doing extract kits the water profile( salts & acids)was already done so it's best to use ro water . Your next brew wait on the dry hop addition. Wait until your beer is about 3-5 days away from being packaged then dry hop. I leave my beer in my FV for 3 weeks approx. With my IPA I dry hop on day 16 or 17 then keg on day 21. The hop profile seems better to me doing it this way . I'm not saying you have to leave your beer in the FV for 3 weeks like me , but try dry hopping later in the game .

In order, they smelt good, they were vacuum packed.

I should have explained a little more. This batch, I did use bottled spring water so hoping for a significant improvement than the normal tap water used in previous batches.
In terms of process, I fermented for 16 days before cold crashing for 1 day (I have fermented previous batches for 3 weeks), dry hopped on day 17 in a warm environment, cold crashed again day 24. Bottled day 25, so in all 8 days of dry hopping.

 

[Jag75]

In order, they smelt good, they were vacuum packed.

I should have explained a little more. This batch, I did use bottled spring water so hoping for a significant improvement than the normal tap water used in previous batches.
In terms of process, I fermented for 16 days before cold crashing for 1 day (I have fermented previous batches for 3 weeks), dry hopped on day 17 in a warm environment, cold crashed again day 24. Bottled day 25, so in all 8 days of dry hopping.

So looks like your process is good to me . Are you purging your FV when you dry hop?
The only thing that sticks out to me is cold crashing (suckback) and bottling IPAs. As you know they're suseptable to oxidation. I'm to scared to bottle prime them . I'm making an IPA for someone right now and I'm going to keg , carb then bottle and give to them . I've heard it's really hard to bottle prime IPAs without oxidizing.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Without going into oxygen reduction methods, you can significantly speed up the process and thereby reduce the amount of time your beer and hops are exposed to oxygen.
If you study up on and improve your yeast health practices, a pale ale at room temp should be done fermenting in less than a week. I'm usually at final gravity in 3-4 days.
Dry hoppping experiments have shown a real diminishing return beyond 3 days, and virtually no increase in flavor/aroma beyond 5 days.
Don't cold crash THEN dry hop - your dry hopping should be done prior to cold crashing. The purpose of cold crashing is to aid in clearing the beer by dropping out precipitates.
Beware of/eliminate suckback (including of air) during cold crashing.

 

[S.R.S]

So looks like your process is good to me . Are you purging your FV when you dry hop?
The only thing that sticks out to me is cold crashing (suckback) and bottling IPAs. As you know they're suseptable to oxidation. I'm to scared to bottle prime them . I'm making an IPA for someone right now and I'm going to keg , carb then bottle and give to them . I've heard it's really hard to bottle prime IPAs without oxidizing.

when you say purging, I assume you mean with Co2 - the answer is no. As for kegging etc. I don't think I am there yet in terms of ability.
So it looks like I need to explore beer types other than IPA's that are not susceptible to oxidation.
Perhaps the Coopers FV with krausen collar that allows for the lid to move does not help, but there again, its not like its left open all the time.

 

[S.R.S]

Without going into oxygen reduction methods, you can significantly speed up the process and thereby reduce the amount of time your beer and hops are exposed to oxygen.
If you study up on and improve your yeast health practices, a pale ale at room temp should be done fermenting in less than a week. I'm usually at final gravity in 3-4 days.
Dry hoppping experiments have shown a real diminishing return beyond 3 days, and virtually no increase in flavor/aroma beyond 5 days.
Don't cold crash THEN dry hop - your dry hopping should be done prior to cold crashing. The purpose of cold crashing is to aid in clearing the beer by dropping out precipitates.
Beware of/eliminate suckback (including of air) during cold crashing.

thank you for all feedback. I still think I am expecting too much from a simple canned kit and would achieve better results with a part grain kit.
I will try your idea of less time fermenting and dry hopping, however, if not cold crashing I would imagine the beer will be much more cloudy due to less time allowed for clearing?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

thank you for all feedback. I still think I am expecting too much from a simple canned kit and would achieve better results with a part grain kit.
I will try your idea of less time fermenting and dry hopping, however, if not cold crashing I would imagine the beer will be much more cloudy due to less time allowed for clearing?

I'm not saying don't cold crash - just do your dry hopping before you cold crash. The point of cold crashing is to clear up the beer. Dry hopping will add particulates to the beer. If you already "cleared" it and then you dry hop, you are just adding Schmutz back in.
Dry hop THEN cold crash to help clear up the beer. Just look up suckback and ways to prevent/mitigate it (suckback can be in the form of liquid or air, neither of which are especially good for your beer, especially if it is dry hopped).

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Perhaps the Coopers FV with krausen collar that allows for the lid to move does not help, but there again, its not like its left open all the time.

THat's not the issue - the issue is opening the FV to add the dry hops. You've just compromised the headspace of the FV, which during fermentation was full of CO2. When you open it to dry hop, you let all that CO2 escape and the headspace becomes filled with outside air chock full of oxygen.
Don't believe the myth of the "heavier-than-air blanket of CO2" that is supposed to protect your beer. That is an old wive's tale that still gets repeated, unfortunately. Gases intermix freely, even against pressure, which is counterintuitive.

 

[Dgallo]

50 grams is less than two ounces so that’s a pretty low dryhop amount. You should at minimum double it

 

[S.R.S]

THat's not the issue - the issue is opening the FV to add the dry hops. You've just compromised the headspace of the FV, which during fermentation was full of CO2. When you open it to dry hop, you let all that CO2 escape and the headspace becomes filled with outside air chock full of oxygen.
Don't believe the myth of the "heavier-than-air blanket of CO2" that is supposed to protect your beer. That is an old wive's tale that still gets repeated, unfortunately. Gases intermix freely, even against pressure, which is counterintuitive.

so no real way of avoiding it if dry hops is to be added

 

[Cavpilot2000]

so no real way of avoiding it if dry hops is to be added

There are ways, but they get into more advanced brewing techniques and additional equipment required.
If you are at least aware and cognizant of oxygen ingress, you can do things to minimize exposure by opening the FV less (only when absolutely necessary, reducing time that the beer sits at room temp (oxidation reactions occur faster at higher temps, and slower at cold temps), etc.

And I agree with DGALLO that less than 2 oz is a little light on the dry hops. For a pale ale 2-3 oz (57-85 g) is more appropriate than 50 g. Then adjust to taste for next batch. I usually only dry hop 2 oz for a pale ale, but I have extensive oxygen mitigation procedures, so I lose very little in aroma or flavor. However, since you are losing a lot of aroma, until you can tighten up your process, 3-4 oz is probably better for you.

One step at a time and yo'll tighten up your process and expand your equipment over time, but right now there are a few things you can do right away and that don't require more equipment.

 

[Jag75]

so no real way of avoiding it if dry hops is to be added

Dgallo has a valid point 50g -2oz isnt very much at all. I dry hop 4 to 5 oz for 5.5 gallon batch . As for o2 during dry hopping , I've done the dry hopping by opening a port at the top then purging with co2 and haven't had any bad effects.

 

[JimRausch]

S.R.S- one way to cut down on the threat of oxidation is to do your dryhopping while the beer is still fermenting. That way new CO2 is still being produced. If you know your fermentation is mostly over in 5-7 days, then dryhop at day4.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

S.R.S- one way to cut down on the threat of oxidation is to do your dryhopping while the beer is still fermenting. That way new CO2 is still being produced. If you know your fermentation is mostly over in 5-7 days, then dryhop at day4.

True, but if you aren't following that up with a closed transfer using purged vessels, all you are gaining is mitigating one opening of the FV.
Most NEIPAs dry hop during fermentation for biotransformation, but look at all the threads about peoples' NEIPAs turning to mud in the bottle - it's because their post-fermentation practices allowed that hops to become oxidized.

I'm not knocking the practice - I too sometimes dry hop while there is still some fermentation going on, but it is all for naught if you aren't taking additional measures to mitigate oxygen exposure.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Am I simply expecting too much from these kits

Perhaps. The kit is short on details, but the style looks like a "classic" west coast IPA. That amount of Citra by itself is probably not going to provide the flavors you are looking for (more along the lines of a late 2010s NEIPA?)

... [am i] being unrealistic thinking I will achieve anything close?

No, but 'getting close' may require a different recipe, some changes in process, and some additional equipment. Many ideas were presented above.

What are some examples of commercial styles of beer that are similar to what you want to brew?

Water chemistry will help make the 1st beer of the batch taste better. Avoiding "oxygen ingress" will help the last beer of the batch taste as good as the first.

But if you don't like the recipe (1st bottle), it may not matter if the last bottle was oxidized.

 

[S.R.S]

Perhaps. The kit is short on details, but the style looks like a "classic" west coast IPA. That amount of Citra by itself is probably not going to provide the flavors you are looking for (more along the lines of a late 2010s NEIPA?)

No, but 'getting close' may require a different recipe, some changes in process, and some additional equipment. Many ideas were presented above.

What are some examples of commercial styles of beer that are similar to what you want to brew?

Water chemistry will help make the 1st beer of the batch taste better. Avoiding "oxygen ingress" will help the last beer of the batch taste as good as the first.

But if you don't like the recipe (1st bottle), it may not matter if the last bottle was oxidized.

I guess you are right, my preference is more NEIPA.
The kind of beers I prefer are;

Fruju
https://www.bigsmokebrew.co.uk/fruju

Hazey Days
https://www.thelondonbeerfactory.com/product/hazey-daze/

and one I recently discovered

Auric
https://www.eebriatrade.com/products/beer/salopian-brewery/4018-auric

I prefer closer to ABV 4%

 

[mattdee1]

Am I simply expecting too much from these kits and being unrealistic thinking I will achieve anything close?

In theory, no. In practical/realistic terms, yes.

Somebody has to say it, sorry.

Back when I was bottling, I tried several all-grain hoppy beers and they were, if I'm being brutally honest, woefully disappointing.

Eventually I'd had it. There's an old adage that says, to paraphrase, "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity." With this wisdom in mind, I self-imposed a moratorium on brewing hoppy styles until I had some new, concrete ideas or techniques to try (as an aside, "adding more hops" does not qualify for this, and is not an answer. It's a great way to piss money away and make sharp, harsh tasting homebrew though.)

When I moved to kegging, I thought "a ha! Maybe kegging is the secret to hoppy beers!" So I lifted the moratorium and tried again. The results may have been slightly better, but still a major letdown. Then, I tried dry hopping in the keg, figuring I'd literally trap the hops in the vessel. It barely helped at all, and actually made the beer taste grassy compared to kegs of the same beer that had no keg hops. Moratorium re-instated. That was 2 years ago.

Less than a year ago, on this site, I started reading through some of the methods people are using to avoid exposing their beer to oxygen after fermentation. When you first approach the subject and see all the different things people are doing, with confusing explanations and pictures of hoses going this way and that, it's kind of exhausting. But eventually, you start to see the same kinds of approaches implemented on different setups and you realize it's really not that complicated. I figured this qualifies as a "new technique" so I lifted the moratorium and gave it a try. I am still tweaking the process but I am extremely happy with the results so far.

There's no two ways about it: the limitation of post-fermentation oxygen exposure is the secret sauce I have been missing all along.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

my preference is more NEIPA.
...
I prefer closer to ABV 4%

I'm (currently) not a fan of the style, so I'm not much help with recipe ideas.

Maybe someone else here has pointers to sessionable NEIPA recipes.

 

[S.R.S]

thanks again for all your messages.
It looks like the recipes I have been brewing are never going to be close to the NEIPA style I prefer.
Either way it seems that Kegging has to be the way forward to reduce oxidation
Now I have to learn how to use a keg system and how to bottle from it!

 

[S.R.S]

looking at kegs - are they all 19l? I brew (as I expect others do) 23l batches?

 

[Jag75]

I think I've seen 23l kegs online . Not 100% sure

 

[S.R.S]

I think I've seen 23l kegs online . Not 100% sure

are you UK based?
I'm now considering continuing bottling but using a soda stream to purge bottles prior to filling.

 

[Jag75]

are you UK based?
I'm now considering continuing bottling but using a soda stream to purge bottles prior to filling.

No sir . United States

If your bottle priming no need to purge , you'll just be wasting your co2. If you bottle from a keg then purging is good idea.

 

[Jag75]

Trying to find the 23l kegs but no luck. You might just have to go with 1/4 barrel or pony keg which holds 29l

Here ya go . Not sure if this helps

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58358

 

[S.R.S]

Trying to find the 23l kegs but no luck. You might just have to go with 1/4 barrel or pony keg which holds 29l

Here ya go . Not sure if this helps

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58358

appreciate that Jag 75, thank you

 

[mattdee1]

looking at kegs - are they all 19l? I brew (as I expect others do) 23l batches?

There are several sizes out there but by far the most common is the 5gal / 19L, at least in North America... not sure about the UK.

Going with 5gal enables you to take advantage of the vast market for used kegs, which cost a fraction of new ones.