Hoppo's E-Brewery Build

[captrichc]

Wow just read this whole thread. Awesome awesome awesome. I am in the process of planing a system. Would you give some updated reviews on the controller and the program for the ipad/ cell phone. Thanks again for an awesome documentation on your beautifully built system.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

You gotta paint that water heater to look like R2D2 or something cool - it's the one 'sore thumb' in an otherwie AWESOME build. Congrats on sticking it out and finishing it the way you wanted and the RIGHT way, even when it may have been easier to try and cut corners at time. You've got a thing of beauty there.
-Kevin

Yeah, I know, it is an eys sore. This area of the basement was supposed to simply be the mechanical and storage side until my wife gave me the green light to steal some of the storage space for the brewery. I live in a somewhat rural area and am currntly on propane.....ouch! It got up to $4/gallon this year and we didn't pre-buy like we usually do, so we have been battling $1000 propane bills for the past 3 months. Thankfully natural gas is coming to my neighborhood next summer and we can ditch the propane. Unfortunatley the hot water heater cannont be converted to NG with a simple orifice change like many gas appliances. The entire burner assembly has to be replaced and isn't worth the expense since the unit is over 8 years old now. Fortunately, I have an 86,000 BTU boiler mounted on the wall in the corner beside it, which can be converted from LP to NG. When we convert to NG, this boiler will provide all of our domestic hot water needs, as well as heating the basement floor. We have to purchase an insulated SS holding tank to tie into the boiler system and then my plumber will plumb it in. Depending on how much I want to spend in re-plumbing the existing water lines, I could move the tank to the back wall of the brewery on the other side of the boiler and open up some additional floor space. It really comes down to how much it would cost to re-plumb it, but its certainly doable. We'll see what happens, but for now it is what it is, but I appreciate all of the suggestions to blend it into the brewery though!

 

[Hoppopotomus]

You gotta paint that water heater to look like a big can of PBR
It will fit right in with the hanging light !

Beautifull Build Hoppo !!
I've been watching for some time.
Love the Lodge Pole Pine !

When can you start on my basment brewery ?!

Thanks man, I appreciate it. The rest of my house is NOT rustic at all, but I have always liked the lodge/cabin decor. We live in a wooded area with lots of wildlife and a seculded back yard, so I pitched the idea of going rustic in the basement to my wife and she was fine with it. Thankfully I have good supply of cedar logs on my dad's property in southern MI and I was able to buy a trailer load of knotty pine for next to nothing from a lumber yard up in Midland where one of my businesses is located. The only major expenses in the entire basement and brewery were my redwood bar top, the cabinetry in my bar, my kegging equipment, and the control panel for the brewery. Everything else I purchased from contractors on CL, on clearance, or salvaged and reused old materials. If you check out some of my other builds like my grain mill, fermentation chambers, keezer, etc. you will see that the bones of all of my builds are done very inexpensively......mostly with recycled materials, then I just cover them with knotty pine, cedar, travertine, etc. to make them look decent.

I live up in Oxford, not terribly far from where you are at, so if you ever want to check it out, let me know.

 

[steveoatley]

Hoppo

I'll give you a shout next time I am out your neck of the woods !
I'd love to talk my wife into the "cabin' in the basement idea.

Thx

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Wow just read this whole thread. Awesome awesome awesome. I am in the process of planing a system. Would you give some updated reviews on the controller and the program for the ipad/ cell phone. Thanks again for an awesome documentation on your beautifully built system.

No problem.

I am not an IT guy whatsoever, so bear with my use of terminology. I went with the 30 amp. control panel with a built in BCS module, which I purchased from www.ebrewsupply.com. The owner's name is Ryan and he is great to work with both during the planning/ordering process, as well as after the fact with programming. The BCS (Brewery Control System) is a little micro-computer module that can be programmed to control all phases of the brewing process. With my system, there are some things that I have to do manually, such as open and close my valves during the different brewing steps, switch hoses, etc. The BCS is what controls my outputs.....pumps and heating elements, as well as my inputs.....temp. probes for HLT, MLT, BK, and plate chiller. The BCS is capable of doing much more than I use it for. For instance, it can control outputs for electronic valves for hard plumbed systems, as well inputs for float switches for volumetric control to name a few. Some guys use the BCS to control their fermentations chambers as well, but I already built my own control center for that long before I purchased this panel.

Essentially, I went with the 30 amp. system, because I do not plan on doing back to back batches, now that I can produce more than twice my prior volume. I don't have a need for 2 heating elements firing at the same time, so I went with the 30 amp. system to save a few bucks. The 50 amp system is capable of handling 2 elements simultaneously as well as providing power for the pumps. I spend a solid year planning and trying to decide what panel I wanted to go with. Essentially, like most of us on HBT, I started by exploring Kal's panel on www.theelectricbrewery.com, which is absolutely amazing. However, the cost of that panel was something like $2500 for the fully assembled version and I believe $1500 for the unassembled version. Then I came across the ebrew supply panel and it was $1500 fully assembled and ready to go. I simply didn't have 40 hrs. to devote to assembling my own panel and like I said, I'm not a tech. guy, so I went with Ryan's panel.

At the time, ebrew supply focused more on the automated panels, but were just started to produce panels with manual switches, PID's, etc. However, in speaking with Ryan, those panels were actually a little more expensive, as the BCS that handles a lot of these functions on a web based platform and is relatively inexpensive. I upgraded for $75 to have Ryan install a little wi-fi adapter, so that I didn't need to run an ethernet cable over to the panel and didn't have to tie it into my home network if I didn't want to. Ryan was nice enough to pre-load his brewing process into the BCS and had he not done that, it honestly would have been a train wreck for me.

The BCS based control panel takes a little time to get the hang of while programming the various processes, as well as the states and exit strategies within those processes that allow the program to transition from one process to the next. I supposed that if you have even a basic background in programming, it would be very simple, but for me there was a large learning curve. Thankfully, Ryan was great in assisting me with several programming glitches that I ran into over the phone and via email. Essentially, the brewing process that he loaded onto my BCS was a little different than my process, so I had to be tweaked a bit. I will say, however, once it is programmed it make the brewing process quite simple.

My only complaint with the BCS platform thus far is the fact that if you want to make small temperature adjustments on the fly, you have to transition out of the main page into the programming, select the process you are currently in, select the state within that process, then scroll down the make the change, then apply that change, then transition back to the main page. At times, I would prefer to just be able to push a damn button on the control panel to fine tune adjustments. Maybe there is still something that I don't know and maybe there is a simpler way to make subtle tweaks during the brewing process, but I'm not currently aware of them.

Also, since I do not have float switches to monitor volume levels within the vessels, there are some states within processes (like the fly sparging process) that I cannot enter an exit strategy to transition from one state to the next. For example, as I start my sparge both pumps are running and I manually adjust the valves to slowly pump wort out of the MLT over to the BK, while at the same time slowly pumping sparge water out of the HLT over to the top of the grain bed in the MLT. During this process, I have a state in which I have the HLT element firing to maintain the sparge water temp., then the next state is for all elements off, then the next state is BK element on. I have to monitor this closely to make sure that the volume isn't getting too low in the HLT to keep the element firing or that there is enough volume in the BK to start firing that element. In these instances, I have to either force jump to the next state on the main page or program the DIN button on the panel to serve as the exit condition for each state. For the longest time I had no idea what the hell the green button on the panel was for, so I called Ryan and he walked me through the process of programming exit strategies, so that when I push the Green button (DIN), it automatically transitions to the next state. This made life much simpler.

Like I said, I really like the panel and now that I have used it a handful of times and worked out the bugs, it has made my life easier. However, at times I wish that I could just manually push buttons and turn switches on the control panel itself, rather than having to use the IPad to access the programming for adjustments. The BCS is designed to fully automate a brewery. I tend to be more hands on in the brewing process, so I will not be adding float switches, electronic valves, or hard plumbing my system for complete automation. On the plus side, you can manually turn on the pumps without having to log onto the BCS, which is handy.

Hope this helps!

 

[captrichc]

Thanks for that great in depth review. That's exactly what I was looking for. I too started my looking at kal design. Was all set to purchase it and then isaw your ssystem. I really like the controller that ryan puts out. As I have spoken to him as well. Thanks for the feedback. I'm about 8 weeks out from doing the brewery build. I also like the fact that bcs can go full auto if I decide to do that route.

cheers.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

No problem and good luck. If there is anything that I can do to help you out through the process let me know. Also, when you start a thread and shoot me a PM, so I can follow along. I love to track these builds from start to finish.

 

[captrichc]

No problem and good luck. If there is anything that I can do to help you out through the process let me know. Also, when you start a thread and shoot me a PM, so I can follow along. I love to track these builds from start to finish.

Yes will do. I don't know where to start it though. It's a big project that is going to go in many directions

 

[Hoppopotomus]

You can tackle it with mulitple threads for each component like I did or just chronicle it in one big thread.

On a side note. I am going to be placing the order for a reverse osmosis system. I have decided to go with a light commerical unit. I plan on ordering it with a 14 gallon storage tank (11 gallon capacity), a booster pump, and either 150 or 300 gpd. I typically need about 20 gallons of water to brew 10.5 gallons of wort, so I figured that if I have a system with a somewhat high capacity of production I could fill my HLT most of the way early in the a.m. Then a little later top it off and fill my MLT with the appropriate volume of strike water, as I heat my strike water via the HERMs coil in the HLT. With this higher capacity unit, I'm going to add a 4 way manifold and run pex to a faucet in the brewery, one at the kitchen sink, and one to each of my 2 refrigerators for the ice/water dispensers. Not sure if I will need a distrubution pump or not, so I'm calling Titan a little later today. Also, I need to brew 2 more batches before tearing the system apart to finish the floor.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Then a little later top it off and fill my MLT with the appropriate volume of strike water, as I heat my strike water via the HERMs coil in the HLT.

So you fill your MLT with cold water, then heat it to strike via the HERMS? How long does that take?! Is this the way that others are doing it? I typically fill my HLT up, heat it to my strike temp, dump the appropriate volume into the MLT, and then refill the HLT and heat to my first mash step temp (which is lower than strike temp anyways). I can't imagine that the HERMS can heat the strike water as quickly as a submerged element can... Is there a reason you do it your way?

-Kevin

 

[Terek]

wow, you got a high eff. tank water heater, and a high eff. tankless w/h!?! im jealous

 

[Hoppopotomus]

So you fill your MLT with cold water, then heat it to strike via the HERMS? How long does that take?! Is this the way that others are doing it? I typically fill my HLT up, heat it to my strike temp, dump the appropriate volume into the MLT, and then refill the HLT and heat to my first mash step temp (which is lower than strike temp anyways). I can't imagine that the HERMS can heat the strike water as quickly as a submerged element can... Is there a reason you do it your way?

-Kevin

Yes, that's how I do it. It takes about 45 minutes to do it this way. I've tried it both ways and it's six of one and a half dozen of the other for my set up. I'm using 15.5 gallon sanke's for my vessels and I'm using a PICO false bottom, which creates about 2.5 gallons of dead space under my grain bed. When I fill up the HLT to 15 gallons and bring it up to strike temp it takes about 20 minutes or so. I typically use between 20 and 24 lbs of grains for my mash depending on what I'm brewing, which requires 7 to 8 gallons of strike water. This combined with the dead space volume in my MLT exhausts 2/3 of the volume in my MLT. It takes 10 gallons of sparge water in my HLT for the HERMs coil to be fully submerged. With the time taken to transfer the strike over to the MLT, then refill the HLT with 5 to 6 more gallons of cold water to fully submerge the HERMs coil and then elevate the temperature back up to my mash temperature, it's really not too far off time wise. If I had bigger vessels, say 20 gallons, then it would make more sense to do it your way.

I find that if I fill the MLT up with enough water to account for my dead space below the false bottom and for my initial strike volume, it's somewhere between 9.5 to 10.5 gallons. It's just easier for me to fill the MLT with the volume I need, then fill my HLT up with 10 gallons and let it all start heating at once. The HLT gets up to temp. in about 30 minutes and the MLT catches up about 15 minutes later. I have an alarm that sounds when my MLT gets to temp., so usually start heating and then find something to keep me busy. I find that if I bring everything up to 160 to 165 degrees in both vessels, add the grains, and then wait a few minutes to start circulating through the HERMs, I typically equalize out to the low 152 to 154 range within a few minutes. Then I just tweak temps as needed. It may take a touch longer to go this route, but it's less transferring and hose swapping. I usually take the time to measure out salt additions, hop additions, start sanitizing fermenters, etc. I'll eventually upgrade to larger vessel, but for now this seems to be working out well.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

.....P.S. I plan on setting up communication between my control panel and my wireless home network. That way, if I want to brew on a Friday night, I can fill my kettles up before I go to work, log onto my network from my office, and start heating up the system, so that it's ready when I get home. Ryan, the guy who I purchased the panel from does it this way as well. He explained that it works out well for people that like to brew in the morning as well. Just fill the kettles up the night before, set your alarm clock to wake up, pick up your smart phone, start the "Heat to Strike" process, and go back to sleep for a bit. Since you can monitor everything from your smart phone or tables, with this wifi enabled, BCS system, you can be out mowing your lawn and keeps tabs on the strike temps progress. Pretty slick.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

wow, you got a high eff. tank water heater, and a high eff. tankless w/h!?! im jealous

Kind of.....I have a high eff. 75 gallon Lochinvar tank heater, which was installed when we built the house. We have a large jetted jacuzzi tub in our master bathroom, so we needed something that could heat enough water to fill that volume and to be able to re-heat to temp. quickly. Fortunately Consumers Energy is running natural gas to my neighborhood next summer. Unfortunately, this large water heater cannot be converted from LP to NG without replacing the entire burner assembly....not worth it for an 8 year old unit. What you see hanging on the wall next to it is a high eff. Lochinvar Knight, 85,000 BTU boiler that heats my basement floors and is convertible between LP and NG. Once we make the conversion from LP to NG, the 75 gallon unit will go bye, bye and will be replaced with a ss storage tank at which point the boiler system will provide all of our domestic hot water needs.

 

[Terek]

U have radiant heat in ur basement? Now I'm real jealous. Lol sorry for off topic, I'm in heating and plumbing. The brewing set up u got is one of the nicest I have seen. Only one that can compete is almost identical, but all stainless. I prefer the wood look though

 

[cfrazier77]

Hoppo,
A friend of mine does water treatment and has put/moved a ro system in three houses now. He had taught me a lot on how to set them up for brewing. One of the things you can do is to T off the line going to the tank and add a 4 gallon tank. If you put a shut off valve on each you can wait till evening to fill the big one and your consumption points, ice and drinking, will have plenty of water. I am adding a thirty gallon non pressure tank with a float switch because the water at my new house is horrible. If you use a non pressure tank and a pressure tank for drinking you have to put a check valve on the pressure tank line so it does not get emptied into the other tank.

Good luck with ro water, I hope that your beers come out even better than they are now.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[cfrazier77]

Here is my Grampa's old PBR light. I put it up in the brew storage room. Thanks for the inspiration.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Nice!.....our grandpas would be proud.

I have been brewing quite a bit lately with 30 gallons fermenting right now and another 10 gallon batch that I plan to knock out sometime this week. We installed a pool late last summer, so it's our first full season to use it, which means lots of weekend gatherings at the house. I'm one of those hosts that supplies all of the refreshments for my gatherings, so I'm getting stocked up now. My friends and neighbors know that when they come over, they need not bring anything.

With all of this brewing, I'm sick of hauling 20 gallons of R/O water home from Meijer every brew session, so I seriously need to get a new R/O system. I'll be picking your brain a little more since you have a better working knowledge of how to set these things up for home brewing, but don't have time to ask the questions now.

 

[cfrazier77]

That is a lot of brewing, having your own RO system will help a lot. A side benefit is having really good drinking water, we can't drink beer all the time right?

Whatever I can do to help, I will.

 

[KPSquared]

we can't drink beer all the time right?

Umm... what? Says who?

 

[jeffmeh]

That is a lot of brewing, having your own RO system will help a lot. A side benefit is having really good drinking water, we can't drink beer all the time right?

Whatever I can do to help, I will.

Nothing wrong with drinking RO water, but be aware that you are not getting the mineral content that you would be getting otherwise.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Hoppo,
A friend of mine does water treatment and has put/moved a ro system in three houses now. He had taught me a lot on how to set them up for brewing. One of the things you can do is to T off the line going to the tank and add a 4 gallon tank. If you put a shut off valve on each you can wait till evening to fill the big one and your consumption points, ice and drinking, will have plenty of water. I am adding a thirty gallon non pressure tank with a float switch because the water at my new house is horrible. If you use a non pressure tank and a pressure tank for drinking you have to put a check valve on the pressure tank line so it does not get emptied into the other tank.

Good luck with ro water, I hope that your beers come out even better than they are now.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Home Brew mobile app

OK.....I have a bit of time to ask a few questions about the proper way to set up an R/O system for a home brewery. So are you saying to use a large tank (14 gallon) and a smaller tank (6 gallon) in the system. For that type of a setup, would I simply just be using the smaller tank for everyday domestic needs? Having a shut off valve on each, then would I turn supply onto the larger one for brew days to get more volume? Then do I turn off the supply and drain the larger tank after I get the volume that I need? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this.

I spoke with a guy from Titan who tried to educate me on R/O systems. He explained that the GPD production rate listed for any particular unit is based off of controlled testing with supply water temps at 77 degrees. Obviously this is not a realistic supply temp for most, so he said that I would then simply reduce the production volume by 2% for every degree my supply water is below 77 degrees. Based on his information I did some calculations to see where I was at and I fall > 25 degrees F below the testing temp, so I could anticipate slightly greater than a 50% loss in volume production compared to what is listed by the manufacturer.

My thinking was to go with a higher output unit of 300 GPD and use a 14 gallon tank that holds 11 gallons of actual water volume. I typically use 20 gallons of water volume for my 10.5 - 11 gallon batches. I was thinking that the night before or the morning of brew day, I could drain off 10 gallons, leaving a gallon for the ice makers to keep functioning. Then according to my calculations a unit of this capacity with my water temps should be able to produce 150 GPD or 6.25 gallons per hour. So, within an hour and a half, I should have the remaining volume needed to fill my system and start brewing.

Is there a significant down side to having one large tank as opposed to a larger and a smaller tank as you propose? Is there a problem oversizing the tank that holds far more volume than is needed for everyday domestic purposes? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this, so your experience and expertise is appreciated.

 

[cfrazier77]

Here are my thoughts based on what I have been taught. Starting with production, temp is one factor, the other is pressure differential. The bigger the pressure difference on the incoming side of the filter and the outgoing side of the filter the more efficient it will be. That is why systems can come with electric and hydraulic pumps. I have a hydraulic on mine. So, without knowing your incoming water PSI it is hard to guess what your real output is going to be.

The next issue is storage. There are two main options, pressure vessel or open atmosphere. Both have their pros and cons. With a pressure vessel the rate of flow decreases as volume decreases. So lets say that you have one gallon left of 11 original. You may not have enough pressure to properly feed an ice maker and your drinking water output at the sink will be very low. This is because as the air bladder expands the psi it is exerting on the water bladder decreases. If you go this route this is why I would recommend a small secondary tank for your drinking water and ice maker. You don't even have to use shut off valves, a check valve would do the same thing.

The pros of a big pressure vessel is that it is sealed, no bugs. The cons are increased cost, can require a bigger gallon per day system, you have to wait on more water to be produced, and it takes more time to dispense the water (the output can be 1/4").

The other option is a open atmosphere tanks. For example a friend of mine bought a 55 gallon food grade drum on Craigslist for $15. It had been used to store food grade phosphoric acid so it was bug free. He put a hose to the bottom of it to draw from, he has a pump that pulls a suction, a float switch to turn off the incoming water when it is full, and a inline hepa filter as a breather to keep bugs out of it. I am going to do the same with my setup exept that I am going to put mine on a shelf and put a ball valve on the bottom so I don't have to use a pump.

If you do the second option you will need a small pressure tank for ice and drinking. You T the line coming out of the membrane, one goes to the big tank, the other goes to the pressure tank. You have to put a check valve on the line to the small pressure tank so that it does not flow back into the big tank. Also, while the big tank is filling the small tank will not fill. Water will go to the path of least resistance.

Cons,
It is not a closed system.
Pros,
Cheaper tank, don't need 300 GPD system, have all of your water ready at the start of your brew day, faster dispensing of brew water.

I would recommend option 2. I looked at doing a large pressure vessel but the cost was too high. Secondly, option 2 is going to dispense a lot faster.

If figure that this is just the start, let me know what you think and what questions you have.

OK.....I have a bit of time to ask a few questions about the proper way to set up an R/O system for a home brewery. So are you saying to use a large tank (14 gallon) and a smaller tank (6 gallon) in the system. For that type of a setup, would I simply just be using the smaller tank for everyday domestic needs? Having a shut off valve on each, then would I turn supply onto the larger one for brew days to get more volume? Then do I turn off the supply and drain the larger tank after I get the volume that I need? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this.

I spoke with a guy from Titan who tried to educate me on R/O systems. He explained that the GPD production rate listed for any particular unit is based off of controlled testing with supply water temps at 77 degrees. Obviously this is not a realistic supply temp for most, so he said that I would then simply reduce the production volume by 2% for every degree my supply water is below 77 degrees. Based on his information I did some calculations to see where I was at and I fall > 25 degrees F below the testing temp, so I could anticipate slightly greater than a 50% loss in volume production compared to what is listed by the manufacturer.

My thinking was to go with a higher output unit of 300 GPD and use a 14 gallon tank that holds 11 gallons of actual water volume. I typically use 20 gallons of water volume for my 10.5 - 11 gallon batches. I was thinking that the night before or the morning of brew day, I could drain off 10 gallons, leaving a gallon for the ice makers to keep functioning. Then according to my calculations a unit of this capacity with my water temps should be able to produce 150 GPD or 6.25 gallons per hour. So, within an hour and a half, I should have the remaining volume needed to fill my system and start brewing.

Is there a significant down side to having one large tank as opposed to a larger and a smaller tank as you propose? Is there a problem oversizing the tank that holds far more volume than is needed for everyday domestic purposes? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this, so your experience and expertise is appreciated.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Good day today! I won one of the grand prizes yesterday in the big 2014 HBT Giveaway from Keg Connection. I won the two tap jockey box, two new ss kegs, and the regulator and hoses to operate it. Pretty cool! Should make for some fun neighborhood pool parties this year.

PS....thanks for the R/O pics cfrazier77, very helpful.

 

[KPSquared]

That's so awesome man! Pics when you get the stuff set up!

 

[cfrazier77]

Good day today! I won one of the grand prizes yesterday in the big 2014 HBT Giveaway from Keg Connection. I won the two tap jockey box, two new ss kegs, and the regulator and hoses to operate it. Pretty cool! Should make for some fun neighborhood pool parties this year.

PS....thanks for the R/O pics cfrazier77, very helpful.

You do know that you cannot just use that jockey box as is. You have to clad it in knotty pine. It just won't look right without it!

 

[Hoppopotomus]

You read my mind. Now if I could just get Txbrew to reply to my PM to verify my claim of the prize, that would be a relief. I sent a PM last night and another this a.m. with my shipping info, but so far.....no response. I know he had his hands full with this drawing, so I'm sure he is getting around to it, but I would hate to miss out on it.

 

[KPSquared]

Your name is in itallics so im going to guess he got it!

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Thanks, he just sent me a pm, so I guess it's official.

 

[jeffmeh]

Congrats!