Hopefully a simple water question.

[BaldyOnFire]

TL;DR. My RO systems adds back in "calcium carbonate". Is this the same as calcium chloride dihydrate?

Hey all. And thank you for your time and help in advance.

I'm looking for simplicity here since I'm brewing a batch of beer very soon. Based on the sticky that says this, "Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist", what do I do?

I just installed an APEC six stage RO system (ROES-PH75). The sixth stage says it remineralizes the water by "adds calcium carbonate to increase water alkalinity". The supply to this filter is softened water that is softened using potassium chloride, NOT sodium chloride. I feel like this is moot since the filter will remove nearly all of that anyway. Also, let's assume for now that my RO filter system works very well and I'm starting with nearly pure RO water.

1. How does the fact that the 6th stage adds calcium carbonate translate to brewing? As in, what mineral now does NOT need to be added to my RO water? Let's assume that it adds a "normal" amount. IOW, does this 6th stage add back the equivalent of "Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate..."?
2. WTF is sauermalz? I see people suggesting lactic acid but then the amounts suggested are all over the place.

I'm just looking for an answer something like, "you just need to add x amount of x mineral to get back to the baseline suggested in the quotes above."

NOTES:

1. I'm only brewing pale ales and balanced IPA's. That's the only water profile I care about.
2. I live in Phoenix, AZ and we have really hard water.
3. I bought this RO system so that I didn't have to go the store to buy water.
4. 5 gallon all grain batches
5. Soon I WILL be sending my water off to Ward Labs to get it tested.
6. I will be emailing/asking the RO filter maker more about this 6th stage and how much and what it adds back in.
7. I will NOT remove the sixth stage to gather brewing water. I don't want to be messing with valves under my sink, hastening their failure.
8. Since I have Amazon prime I'll hope to find whatever I need there instead of spending $7 for shipping on $6 of salts that I might need.
9. I'm not looking to make the best beer ever made so I don't need a perfect water profile, just looking to get a simple enough baseline water profile for pale ales until I can get my water tested.
10. For years I've been brewing with RO water (from the machines at the store) and adding my LHBS's free "salts". I've had no complaints ever about any of my ales. It's this 6th stage filter that has me confused a bit.
11. Lastly, obviously this is my first real venture into water profiling beyond knowing that if I used RO water I need to add something back in.
12. I recently brewed a rye pale ale and for the first time ever, used my my softened water that at the time was run through only this counter-top activated filter and IMO the beer came out great.

 

[newnick]

Wish I could give you a simple answer but I think your entering the twilight zone.
This water stuff is complicated to me, good luck with your adventure.

 

[Yooper]

You won't want water with added carbonate.

Can you skip that part?

 

[BaldyOnFire]

Thanks. Because of your post I added a TL;DR question.

Wish I could give you a simple answer but I think your entering the twilight zone.
This water stuff is complicated to me, good luck with your adventure.

 

[BaldyOnFire]

You won't want water with added carbonate.

Can you skip that part?

Yes, it's possible to remove the 6th stage, but not each time I need to gather water. It would be a one time change. Can you explain why? I ask because I see calcium carbonate for sale as something to use when modifying water profiles.

 

[D-Train]

Interesting, I thought calcium carbonate needed co2 or something like that to dissolve into water. Curious to know how that works with this RO system, not that it's really desired for brewing water.

 

[Yooper]

Yes, it's possible to remove the 6th stage, but not each time I need to gather water. It would be a one time change. Can you explain why? I ask because I see calcium carbonate for sale as something to use when modifying water profiles.

Mostly because you never want to add alkalinity in the form of calcium carbonate to any brewing water. Calcium carbonate is chalk, and not calcium chloride.

First, RO water is perfect in that it has very low alkalinity. You want RO water or other water without alkalinity for sparging, always, but usually for mashing as well.

On an occasion when you may need some akalinity in the mash for a proper mash pH (say, a grainbill with a lot of dark grains, like a stout), you wouldn't use calcium carbonate anyway as a rule. You'd use something like baking soda or lime if needed, but it's almost never needed.

I'm no water expert, so I have to ask why the 6th stage adds something that the softener takes out? It seems so odd to me, unless you are worried about corrosion of the pipes or something like that.

 

[mongoose33]

I'm sure glad you didn't ask a complicated question because I might not have followed it.

I'm new at this, and I wish I'd had Yooper's advice (in another thread) before I spent money on some things.

I had my water tested at Wards. I'm kind of glad I did, so I know what I have, but I wish I had that $42 back to put toward an RO system. Turns out I was kind of flummoxed by the advice I had over how to deal with my very hard water, so much so that Saturday I just mostly used distilled water I bought at Wal-mart.

Yooper suggested an RO system, and that's really the way I plan to go. I think it's just so much easier to add to RO water than try to adjust everything with water that's not suited for brewing most of the styles I want to brew.

I'm looking at getting a system that I can use portably--feed with water from the normal tap, fill the kettle with it. I should pay for it in about 20 batches, I'd think, and I'll save myself the trips to go get water.

So--unless you just want to know, if you're already planning on using RO water, I'd skip the Wards report.

 

[BaldyOnFire]

When I was researching the RO system I knew very little about water profiling and just figured six stages is better than five. The 6 stage model I bought also coincidentally had 50% more daily output which impacted my decision.

I think they offer this 6th stage for two reasons:

1. some people think they need minerals in their drinking water. I don't think so myself - I eat plenty of fruits and vegetables.
2. I've read that it's also for preventing corrosion of pipes such as a copper line running to your ice maker.

 

[BaldyOnFire]

Take a look at the APEC system in my link above.

Better yet, looks like the five stage is the way to go for brewing.
http://www.amazon.com/APEC-Premium-5-Stage-Reverse-Drinking/dp/B00I0ZGOZM/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1456182436&sr=1-1&keywords=apec+roes-50

I'm sure glad you didn't ask a complicated question because I might not have followed it.

I'm new at this, and I wish I'd had Yooper's advice (in another thread) before I spent money on some things.

I had my water tested at Wards. I'm kind of glad I did, so I know what I have, but I wish I had that $42 back to put toward an RO system. Turns out I was kind of flummoxed by the advice I had over how to deal with my very hard water, so much so that Saturday I just mostly used distilled water I bought at Wal-mart.

Yooper suggested an RO system, and that's really the way I plan to go. I think it's just so much easier to add to RO water than try to adjust everything with water that's not suited for brewing most of the styles I want to brew.

I'm looking at getting a system that I can use portably--feed with water from the normal tap, fill the kettle with it. I should pay for it in about 20 batches, I'd think, and I'll save myself the trips to go get water.

So--unless you just want to know, if you're already planning on using RO water, I'd skip the Wards report.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

When I was researching the RO system I knew very little about water profiling and just figured six stages is better than five. The 6 stage model I bought also coincidentally had 50% more daily output which impacted my decision.

I think they offer this 6th stage for two reasons:

1. some people think they need minerals in their drinking water. I don't think so myself - I eat plenty of fruits and vegetables.
2. I've read that it's also for preventing corrosion of pipes such as a copper line running to your ice maker.

Yes, buffered alkaline water is better for pipes.

It looks like you should be able to just remove the cartridge from the top of the setup to prevent chalk (Calcium carbonate) from being added back in to your water.

 

[BaldyOnFire]

Bummer, looks like I wasted a little money then. Seems like you guys are saying if I remove this last stage I could use the simple steps in that sticky. "add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist".

You guys are helping so far. Ok, then what do I buy for the 2% sauermalz part?

EDIT: okay, I had originally only first heard of sauermalz by reading that sticky and got all confused when people talked about the percentages of acid etc. I'm finding some answers now.

Yes, buffered alkaline water is better for pipes.

It looks like you should be able to just remove the cartridge from the top of the setup to prevent chalk (Calcium carbonate) from being added back in to your water.

 

[BaldyOnFire]

F me. I was wondering why when I searched for sauermalz none of the online retailers showed up. I eventually figured out it's also called acidulated malt? That's for sale everywhere! That's it?! We're done?

So, remove my 6th stage (of course drain the under sink tank too). Then add 1 tsp of calcium chloride (add this to the strike water?) and 2% (by weight of grain in recipe) acidulated malt?!

Then I have a fairly reliable water profile? And I don't have to drive to the store to get and pay for water?

If that's it, then thanks all!

Bummer, looks like I wasted a little money then. Seems like you guys are saying if I remove this last stage I could use the simple steps in that sticky. "add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist".

You guys are helping so far. Ok, then what do I buy for the 2% sauermalz part?

EDIT: okay, I had originally only first heard of sauermalz by reading that sticky and got all confused when people talked about the percentages of acid etc. I'm finding some answers now.

 

[Yooper]

F me. I was wondering why when I searched for sauermalz none of the online retailers showed up. I eventually figured out it's also called acidulated malt? That's for sale everywhere! That's it?! We're done?

So, remove my 6th stage (of course drain the under sink tank too). Then add 1 tsp of calcium chloride (add this to the strike water?) and 2% (by weight of grain in recipe) acidulated malt?!

Then I have a fairly reliable water profile? And I don't have to drive to the store to get and pay for water?

If that's it, then thanks all!

Yes, that's the basic profile. Add 1 teaspoon of gypsum for hoppy beers. You can always run the recipe by us first, to make sure it's not going to have a too high or too low mash pH, or to double check to see if you want more than the "basic" water primer- but you will make good beer with just that there.

 

[BaldyOnFire]

Yes, that's the basic profile. Add 1 teaspoon of gypsum for hoppy beers. You can always run the recipe by us first, to make sure it's not going to have a too high or too low mash pH, or to double check to see if you want more than the "basic" water primer- but you will make good beer with just that there.

Uhhhhh, damn. Calcium chloride is gypsum? I didn't know that. I just ordered a 1 lb. bag of calcium chloride online despite already having a bag of gypsum at home. :smack: Brewing... never seems to get easier. The more I know the more I realize I don't know. I guess I have to try to remember if brewing was so easy far more people would be doing it.

Oh, and maybe more importantly, all of my batches of beer in my 3 years of brewing have been damned good!

I did also donate to Martin for the full version of the Bru'n Water so that should help.

 

[BrunDog]

No, Calcium Chloride is Calcium Chloride. Gypsum is another name for Calcium Sulfate. Two different compounds. Both add calcium. One adds chloride and the other sulfate. Use in combination to get your calcium where you want it, and balance the two to affect your malty/hoppy character, higher sulfate:chloride being the latter of those two.

 

[newnick]

Couldn't help myself on the first reply, sorry. Can you tee off between the 5th and 6th stage and give yourself a way to get the water you want?

 

[Yooper]

Uhhhhh, damn. Calcium chloride is gypsum? I didn't know that. I just ordered a 1 lb. bag of calcium chloride online despite already having a bag of gypsum at home. :smack: Brewing... never seems to get easier. The more I know the more I realize I don't know. I guess I have to try to remember if brewing was so easy far more people would be doing it.

Oh, and maybe more importantly, all of my batches of beer in my 3 years of brewing have been damned good!

I did also donate to Martin for the full version of the Bru'n Water so that should help.

No, no- sorry for the confusion! You asked if calcium carbonate was calcium chloride- it is not. gypsum is calcium sulfate (CaSO4), and Calcium chloride is CaCl2. Calcium carbonate (chalk) is CaC03.

The primer calls for calcium chloride, but to add gypsum as well for hoppy beers. sorry to be so confusing!

 

[The_Bishop]

Do yourself a big favor and call Buckeye Hydro before you order that system. They'll guide you in the right direction.

 

[beernbourbon]

Do yourself a big favor and call Buckeye Hydro before you order that system. They'll guide you in the right direction.

Unless in my sleep deprived state I misread all of OP's posts, I think ship has sailed and he already has that system installed.

 

[The_Bishop]

Yeah, didn't realize there was a second page. Doh.

 

[BaldyOnFire]

Thanks all. When I posted yesterday I had literally just started reading about water. I'm a few hours smarter now I've got a water profile using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet. Looks like I need just a tad of gypsum, calcium chloride and just 1 oz or so of acidulated malt. I've ordered all 3 of those and a scale accurate to .01. Can't wait to see if this next beer tastes better.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Ha! We'll be here when its time to replace your filters. Happy brewing!