Honey & Attenuation

[SRJHops]

Looking for advice from those who use honey a lot as an adjunct...

I used honey for the first time and it caused my weizenbock to WAY over-attenuate. The FG should have been 1.015, but it's 1.005. Too dry for the style. Instead of the predicted 73-77% attenuation, I am at 90%!

I am wondering of anyone has a rule of thumb for using honey and predicting FG, etc. If I made a rule of thumb after this experience, it would be that a pound of honey can knock 10 points off your predicted FG (5.5 gallon batch).

I mashed at the recommended 152, but will mash higher next time if I use honey. I am going to add some lactose to get the beer back into range, but hoping to figure out how to better manage honey (or other sugar adjuncts) next time...

 

[Miraculix]

The honey ferments out completely, so whatever gravity points are based on honey will be gone after fermentation.

Did you use wb06 by any chance? If so, it is the yeast, not the honey. This yeast is a diastetic yeast.

 

[SRJHops]

The honey ferments out completely, so whatever gravity points are based on honey will be gone after fermentation.

Did you use wb06 by any chance? If so, it is the yeast, not the honey. This yeast is a diastetic yeast.

That makes sense. So, let me think this through: I shouldn't even list the honey in the calculation for FG then. But I should use it for the calculation for final ABV... Am I on the right track?

It was Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Wheat Yeast

 

[Miraculix]

That makes sense. So, let me think this through: I shouldn't even list the honey in the calculation for FG then. But I should use it for the calculation for final ABV... Am I on the right track?

It was Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Wheat Yeast

That is correct!

 

[SRJHops]

That is correct!

Do you happen to have a good (free) calculator that will do this? I just tried the one I use on Brewer's Friend, and the honey only added 1 FG point. The prediction with honey was 1.016 FG and without 1.015.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/allgrain-ogfg/

 

[SRJHops]

That is correct!

BTW the recipe is:

6 pounds German Pale Wheat
3 pounds German Vienna
1.5 pounds German Munich
.5 pounds German Carafoam
1 pound buckwheat honey

 

[Vale71]

Do you happen to have a good (free) calculator that will do this? I just tried the one I use on Brewer's Friend, and the honey only added 1 FG point. The prediction with honey was 1.016 FG and without 1.015.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/allgrain-ogfg/

That calculator appears to be broken. If you enter only honey in the grist FG and ABV will change according to the expected attenuation that you enter in the Yeast Alcohol Tolerance field, which is clearly wrong as honey is 100% fermentable by any yeast.

 

[SRJHops]

I found a calculator that allowed me to put in 100% yeast attenuation for a pound of honey. The OG for that pound was 1.005 and the FG was 1.001.* So, I think that tells me that the honey will cause a drop of 4 points. That does not seem to explain why my FG is off by 10 points. Unless the other 6 were caused by mashing too low -- though I mashed at the recommended 152.

I think there is a math question in here somewhere... The one pound of honey attenuating at 100% and the 10.5 pounds of grains (less the .5 carafoam) attenuating at 77% = 90% attenuation?

Did the honey super-charge the attenuation somehow?

* Interestingly, I did get 4 points in OG from the 1 pound of honey. I thought I would get 7, but my OG went from 153 to 157 after I added the honey at flameout.

 

[RM-MN]

Yeast attenuation is an estimate. Sometimes with perfect conditions my yeast will over attenuate even with no honey.

 

[SRJHops]

Yeast attenuation is an estimate. Sometimes with perfect conditions my yeast will over attenuate even with no honey.

I like to think I gave it perfect conditions. It certainly was a healthy fermentation.

I was trying to drive fermentation by starting at the low temp end for 10 FG gravity points (i.e. 1.057 OG down to 1.047), then ramping up to higher temps for the rest (down to 1.015).

Goal was a little clove and lots of banana. We will see how that works out. My concern for now is I might get a thin, dry, boozy beer, with those (good) esters -- not exactly to style.

I have never had any yeast go below 1.010, so I was pretty surprised this one did. I usually over-pitch, but this one was under-pitched and the wort was not aerated (which was the plan to drive the esters). So pretty surprised to reach 1.005...

My plan for this beer is to add 1.5 pounds of lactose in secondary, to add back some FG points/sweetness.

 

[odie]

I'm doing a honey brown...I chose Muntons yeast because I've had experience with it under attenuating before. hoping some of the honey will remain. I pitched the honey after peak krausen. it's just in the keg waiting for a tap to open...

some lactose might be a good idea as mentioned above

 

[dmtaylor]

One of two things is going on:

A) Mash temperature and time -- how long did you mash total? If you toyed with decoctions or long mash steps, then attenuation will tend to be very low.

or

B) You've got wild yeast from the honey. Did you boil the honey, or how was it added?

That's my guesses. It's not a honey sugar fermentability thing. It's either the wort, or it's something wild.

 

[Miraculix]

One of two things is going on:

A) Mash temperature and time -- how long did you mash total? If you toyed with decoctions or long mash steps, then attenuation will tend to be very low.

or

B) You've got wild yeast from the honey. Did you boil the honey, or how was it added?

That's my guesses. It's not a honey sugar fermentability thing. It's either the wort, or it's something wild.

Or the Tools used for measuring gravity and/or temperature are not working correctly.

I had this exact same problem, turned out that my thermometer was displaying about five degrees too high and my hydrometer was off in a similar range as well.

That sucked, but was easy to figure out and fix.

 

[dmtaylor]

Or the Tools used for measuring gravity and/or temperature are not working correctly.

Well yes, obviously!

Yeah it could be a thermometer calibration issue as well... which basically goes along with my theory (A), actually.

 

[SRJHops]

One of two things is going on:

A) Mash temperature and time -- how long did you mash total? If you toyed with decoctions or long mash steps, then attenuation will tend to be very low.

or

B) You've got wild yeast from the honey. Did you boil the honey, or how was it added?

That's my guesses. It's not a honey sugar fermentability thing. It's either the wort, or it's something wild.

Mash was 60 at 152.

But I did extend the boil to 75 mins to get to my post boil target SG of 1.053. Added the honey at flameout.

 

[SRJHops]

Or the Tools used for measuring gravity and/or temperature are not working correctly.

I had this exact same problem, turned out that my thermometer was displaying about five degrees too high and my hydrometer was off in a similar range as well.

That sucked, but was easy to figure out and fix.

This is a possibility. I am using my new Tilt for the first time. I did calibrate it, but who knows... Will take an old school hydrometer reading this weekend.

 

[dmtaylor]

This is a possibility. I am using my new Tilt for the first time. I did calibrate it, but who knows... Will take an old school hydrometer reading this weekend.

AHA! Great point. Regardless of calibration, the Tilt will read lower than reality when there is gunk stuck to it, that's a known fact. It's useful for knowing when fermentation is complete, but if there is anything stuck to it, you still need to take a sample and read FG the old fashioned way with a real hydrometer.

And *maybe* you have contamination, IF the Tilt is anywhere close to being right. But it might be way off.

 

[SRJHops]

AHA! Great point. Regardless of calibration, the Tilt will read lower than reality when there is gunk stuck to it, that's a known fact. It's useful for knowing when fermentation is complete, but if there is anything stuck to it, you still need to take a sample and read FG the old fashioned way with a real hydrometer.

And *maybe* you have contamination, IF the Tilt is anywhere close to being right. But it might be way off.

Good to know about the gunk factor. Actually makes more sense than the reading I am getting... Will report back after the hydrometer measurement tomorrow...

 

[SRJHops]

Good to know about the gunk factor. Actually makes more sense than the reading I am getting... Will report back after the hydrometer measurement tomorrow...

Holy moly! I can cleaned off the gunk and the FG went from 1.005 to 1.018! That is actually a few points high now, but close enough to my 1.016 target.

I had no idea the Tilt was so sensitive to gunk. Thank you for telling me! No lactose needed...

Might not move to secondary now so prob no hydrometer until bottling day...

 

[Miraculix]

Holy moly! I can cleaned off the gunk and the FG went from 1.005 to 1.018! That is actually a few points high now, but close enough to my 1.016 target.

I had no idea the Tilt was so sensitive to gunk. Thank you for telling me! No lactose needed...

Might not move to secondary now so prob no hydrometer until bottling day...

Awesome!

 

[Vale71]

I had no idea the Tilt was so sensitive to gunk.

That's an issue with any instrument that is left in the fermenter during active fermentation, even a simple hydrometer free-floating inside. There's also the possibility that CO2 bubbles sticking to the gadget will make it read too high.
It's also the reason why people are mostly dissatisfied with these types of gizmos.

 

[SRJHops]

That's an issue with any instrument that is left in the fermenter during active fermentation, even a simple hydrometer free-floating inside. There's also the possibility that CO2 bubbles sticking to the gadget will make it read too high.
It's also the reason why people are mostly dissatisfied with these types of gizmos.

Yeah, I was pretty excited to give myself the Tilt for Xmas, but I am a bit underwhelmed. Still, it's at least useful to track when fermentation is slowing down and ends, even if the numbers can't fully be trusted. While I am not worried about oxidation with this style, my main style is New England IPA, and I don't want to open the fermenter to check the gravity on those...

 

[SRJHops]

So, an update:

Thanks to the folks who posted above, I learned that my new Tilt is super sensitive to gunk. It it also sensitive to being jostled. After removing the gunk, I initially got a reading of 1.018, but it settled down to 1.009 after a hour or so and stayed there.

While I still missed my FG goal of 1.015/16, it's not as alarming as being at 1.005, which really wasn't close. Rather than honey being the culprit, the miss can be explained by missing my OG by 3 points (low) and maybe the yeast over-attenuating a bit due to either mash temp and/or the 75-minute boil.

I did decide to add lactose, and got up to my FG goal of 1.016. I also took an old-school hydrometer reading, and it exactly matched the gunk-free Tilt reading of 1.009 prior to adding the lactose.

I will keep using the Tilt, because it does help track active fermentation, but I will not totally trust the SG or FG numbers until I confirm with a hydrometer.

I'll also keep using honey, which is good way to keep my SRM lighter and the ABV higher!

Thanks to the awesome homebrewers who helped me figure this out!