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I DID mean 2 to 1. But that's close to math. Let's not go there.
Homemade PBW Recipe
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Always refrain from performing Math in Public. Words to live by.
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No truer words were ever spoken.
Three kinds of people in the world:
-those who are good at math, and
-those who are not.
-those who are good at math, and
-those who are not.
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For those who know dose the PBW look this;
Download jmc's PBW Excel Calculation Spreadsheet at ://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/extras.htm
Download jmc's PBW Excel Calculation Spreadsheet at ://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/extras.htm
LarMoeCur
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So, I'm ordering the ingredients to mix up some of this and got to thinking. About, how the pH is really what get's the cleaning done. So, I spent sometime on google and from what I can find PBW's pH should be around 12. Now here's the dangerous part, "I got to thinking". Wouldn't adding 7th Generation Dish washing detergent which contains citric acid lower the pH enough to make it some what neutral or closer to neutral? I've got a good water softener and I'm thinking I may not need 7th Gen if it's being used mainly for the cleating agents.
Thoughts? Preferably less dangerous then my own.
Thank you.
Thoughts? Preferably less dangerous then my own.
Thank you.
I have softened water and I don't add the 7th Gen to mine.
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I think the purpose of 7th. Generation is to act as a surfactant. Any acid in a dishwashing liquid probably wouldn't be low enough pH to neutralize any large volumn of PBW with that much alkalinity. You'd have to add more than a squirter or two of 7th Gen. to a BV or fermenter full of pH 11.0 cleaner.
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I'm sure @Silver_Is_Money could calculate the mole equivalent free OH buffered whatnot thingydowhitchits.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Add Citric Acid to it and it is no longer a PBW_Like cleaner. No need for expended effort here.
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and you call yourself an ocd dataphile. Shame!
LarMoeCur
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thank you for the replies. I'll be sticking to the 2 to 1 oxiclean free and red devil. I wanna keep the pH high.
I made some a few years ago, close to the OP's recipe. IIRC, it turned out just north of $2.00/lb. Went back to Amazon to check prices of the ingredients, and they've gone way up. I didn't calculate the per pound amount of the clone, but not sure it's much of a savings over PBW anymore.
What are you all paying per pound, once the ingredients are assembled? Maybe some better sources out there? The TSP/90 can be found at home center stores, but I don't want to be running in and out of several stores to get all the ingredients.
I see they have 50lb pails of PBW for $195 and free shipping, which works out to $3.90/lb.
What are you all paying per pound, once the ingredients are assembled? Maybe some better sources out there? The TSP/90 can be found at home center stores, but I don't want to be running in and out of several stores to get all the ingredients.
I see they have 50lb pails of PBW for $195 and free shipping, which works out to $3.90/lb.
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Bought 3# sodium metasillicate for $18, need 1/3#, = $2
Bought 20# sodium percarbonate for $50, need 2/3# = $1.5
Unless I'm all wrong, and "2 scoops to 1 scoop" does not work out to "2 pounds to 1 pound", then I think I am spending $3.50/#
doogie
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And have to store half as much at the most.
LarMoeCur
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As far as I can tell it's two ingredients. My life sucks because I'm always at some kind of store buying this thing or that thing. So, when I see what I need I just throw it in the cart. So it's not to much a hassle for me.
I got a 3# tub of Oxiclean Free for $5.
I got 2 one pound bags of Red Devil/90 for $3.76.
4.5# of DIY PBW for $8.76 that's right around $1.94 per pound.
50# of PBW seems like a life time supply. I'd rather scrub a little more and buy $185 dollars worth of grain and hops.
4# of PBW on Amazon is $24 which is still $6 bucks a pound. If it works almost as good that still quite a bit of savings in my book.
On a side note if someone bought a 50# and broke it down into 10# containers. I'd pay the $40 for 10#.
I got a 3# tub of Oxiclean Free for $5.
I got 2 one pound bags of Red Devil/90 for $3.76.
4.5# of DIY PBW for $8.76 that's right around $1.94 per pound.
50# of PBW seems like a life time supply. I'd rather scrub a little more and buy $185 dollars worth of grain and hops.
4# of PBW on Amazon is $24 which is still $6 bucks a pound. If it works almost as good that still quite a bit of savings in my book.
On a side note if someone bought a 50# and broke it down into 10# containers. I'd pay the $40 for 10#.
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I use All Oxi-Free and Savogran TSP. Works for me.
Real TSP is the best option, TSP/90 being a phosphate-free substitute.
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awesome. guess i'll need to grab some more oxi free at the walmarts so i can mix a batch.
That will be awesome and probably the best DIY substitute for PBW, I'd recommend using it sparingly, reserving it for super tough cleaning jobs and use plain old oxi free for routine type cleaning.
InspectorJon
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Real TSP is readily available in the paint section of most hardware stores, at least here in California. Is there any reason not to use that?
redrocker652002
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OK. I am really late to this party, but please break it down for the simpleton I am. What do I need and how much of each for a batch? LOL.
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I use 2/3 sodium percarbonate and 1/3 TSP/90, by rough volume not weight
The TSP/90 is specified because it is sodium metasilicate, while TSP is not, and the PBW we are trying to duplicate has sodium metasilicate.
I think.
The TSP/90 is specified because it is sodium metasilicate, while TSP is not, and the PBW we are trying to duplicate has sodium metasilicate.
I think.
DuncB
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I've always gone by weight and add 5% EDTA to the mix.
You can envision that as being as mixture of 50% Sodium Carbonate (Na2CO3) and 50% Sodium BiCarbonate (NaHCO3) (by moles, not weight).
Sodium Carbonate (Na2CO3), commonly known as "washing soda," is usually already present in OxiClean Free (it's cutting it).
The % of Sodium Carbonate depends on the brand. It makes up the balance of the active ingredient, Sodium PerCarbonate, the chemical that releases the Oxygen, which is what you're buying it for.
Sodium BiCarbonate (NaHCO3) aka Baking Soda, is a pH buffering agent, merely adds alkalinity, but not a good degreaser/cleaner.
Yes, you do. And return the /PF.
TSP/90 is 100% Sodium Metasilicate PentaHydrate (2013):
https://www.whatsinproducts.com/typ...e Free, Powder, 0261-05/30/2013/p>/18-007-174
I was going to ask about this.. I have been looking for the Red Devil /90 TSP and cant find it. I assume it is no longer produced by them. I found the
Savogran TSP and was trying to determine if it is the same thing. Also I see the Lundmark brand. I cant see anythwere on the product where it shows the ingredient. I cant tell if the ingredients and concentrations are the same. The Landmark version is 12$ for 4 lbs.
Can anyone offer some info if there are any differences?
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TSP/90 is the sodium metasilicate, which is the ingredient in PBW this thread is trying to match.
"Regular" TSP is tri-sodium phosphate and 25% sodium carbonate.
It may work just fine.
Have you searched on the web? That's where I got my data from in #949.^
Somewhere upthread, someone reported positive experience using "real" TSP...
The recipe uses TSP/90 because it's trying to mimic PBW, but TSP/90 is a phosphate-free version of TSP (i.e. not really TSP at all) that serves the same purpose. So I'd imagine they perform similarly...
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Just FYI, you *can* simply purchase bags of sodium percarbonate and sodium metasilicate online (ebay, amazon, etc)
I finally ran out of homemade PBW today and had to revisit this topic. I was using the version with 70% sodium percarbonate and 30% sodium metasilicate. It seemed to work fine for me. And I use it constantly, not just for brewing but for dishes and other kinds of cleaning.
Unfortunately as others noted, sodium percarbonate has gotten a lot more expensive. Sodium metasilicate pentahydrate (or Red Devil TSP/90) is also hard to come by on Amazon and eBay any more. All I can find is the anhydrous version on Amazon ($18/1 lb or or $39/5 lb) or other inconveniently large industrial quantities also for about $8/lb. (Even some of those places are out of stock.) The cheap cleaning products like TSP/90 are no longer available except for some random old stock bags being sold at high prices.
Since the cleaning products use the pentahydrate form I wanted to see what the price would be like using the anhydrous form. It's the same thing, just more concentrated as it carries no worthless water. If I did the math correctly, you can multiply your sodium metasilicate pentahydrate required amount by 0.575 to get the equivalent in the anhydrous form.
That still makes the anhydrous form a worse deal since TSP/90 was like $4/lb when you could get it, and it's about $9/lb for anhydrous if you buy the 5 lb bag. Because it is more concentrated, it's the equivalent of paying ~$5/lb for TSP/90. That isn't so bad, but the price increase on sodium percarbonate is the real killer.
This makes the total cost of homemade PBW, with today's prices I can find on sodium percarbonate and sodium metasilicate (anhydrous), about $0.44/oz. This approximately ties the cost per oz of the 5 lb jar of PBW. If you buy the 50 lb bucket of PBW off Amazon, it's about $0.37/oz.
I may buy some sodium metasilicate (anhydrous) to use up the remaining cheap sodium percarbonate I have on hand, the the glory days of cheap homemade PBW seem to be over unless someone can find good deals on the ingredients.
I have attached the recipe and costs spreadsheet I made to figure this out. It's pretty crude but it gets the job done.
Edit to add: This place sells a 55 lb sack of sodium percarbonate for $101 shipped. That cuts the cost per oz to as little as $0.20 depending on your sodium metasilicate supply costs.
https://garmentcleaningsupply.com/chemicals/sodium-percarbonate-55-lbs.html
Unfortunately as others noted, sodium percarbonate has gotten a lot more expensive. Sodium metasilicate pentahydrate (or Red Devil TSP/90) is also hard to come by on Amazon and eBay any more. All I can find is the anhydrous version on Amazon ($18/1 lb or or $39/5 lb) or other inconveniently large industrial quantities also for about $8/lb. (Even some of those places are out of stock.) The cheap cleaning products like TSP/90 are no longer available except for some random old stock bags being sold at high prices.
Since the cleaning products use the pentahydrate form I wanted to see what the price would be like using the anhydrous form. It's the same thing, just more concentrated as it carries no worthless water. If I did the math correctly, you can multiply your sodium metasilicate pentahydrate required amount by 0.575 to get the equivalent in the anhydrous form.
That still makes the anhydrous form a worse deal since TSP/90 was like $4/lb when you could get it, and it's about $9/lb for anhydrous if you buy the 5 lb bag. Because it is more concentrated, it's the equivalent of paying ~$5/lb for TSP/90. That isn't so bad, but the price increase on sodium percarbonate is the real killer.
This makes the total cost of homemade PBW, with today's prices I can find on sodium percarbonate and sodium metasilicate (anhydrous), about $0.44/oz. This approximately ties the cost per oz of the 5 lb jar of PBW. If you buy the 50 lb bucket of PBW off Amazon, it's about $0.37/oz.
I may buy some sodium metasilicate (anhydrous) to use up the remaining cheap sodium percarbonate I have on hand, the the glory days of cheap homemade PBW seem to be over unless someone can find good deals on the ingredients.
I have attached the recipe and costs spreadsheet I made to figure this out. It's pretty crude but it gets the job done.
Edit to add: This place sells a 55 lb sack of sodium percarbonate for $101 shipped. That cuts the cost per oz to as little as $0.20 depending on your sodium metasilicate supply costs.
https://garmentcleaningsupply.com/chemicals/sodium-percarbonate-55-lbs.html
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Red over White
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Check out eco geeks sodium percarbonate on Amazon, 10 lb for $40. I use it, super washing soda and some 7th gen detergent in my homemade sauce. It works fantastic for the price.
Good find, thanks, I missed that. This makes the cost of PBW made with the anhydrous compound about $0.33/oz.
Their 20 lb box is even better for a final cost of $0.29/oz.
Their 20 lb box is even better for a final cost of $0.29/oz.
DuncB
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4lb of PBW is 45 us dollars equivalent here.
I'll recheck current ingredients cost but I think making it still a good deal here.
I'll recheck current ingredients cost but I think making it still a good deal here.
What ratio did you use for the three ingredients. Yeah, I could go back and look, but I'm sure others have used different percentages of each ingredient in their mixes. I'm about out of my homemade sauce and may try a different mix and/or brand. I've got some 7th left, so it would be a matter of just adding the eco and the super washing soda (Arm & Hammer?).
DuncB
Well-Known Member
From memory I use
75% Sodium Percarbonate, 20% Sodium Metasilicate, 5% EDTA all by weight.
75% Sodium Percarbonate, 20% Sodium Metasilicate, 5% EDTA all by weight.
