Homemade PBW Recipe

[Mordhaus]

Here in SoCal, the Kroger brand "oxygen cleaner" posted upthread is ~$4 for a 3.5 lb tub..

Available at the the Kroger owned supermarkets like Ralphs, Food4Less, etc.

I just pick up 2 tubs today at Food4Less for $3.99 each.

Yeah, I didn't see that part of the thread until after I made my purchase over the weekend. I finally read the whole thread today.

Kroger is huge here and where we buy most of our groceries. I'll be looking for their brand oxi cleaner on our next trip.

 

[Jambro64]

So all you Oregonians that want to buy this recipe, I found the
7th Heaven 45 oz powder at BiMart for $4.99 a box
Kroger Brand Oxyclean 56 oz powder at Fred Meyers for $4.39
Red Devil TSP/90 1lb powder at Fred Meyers for $3.99

So I am going to try this recipe:
one 56oz bucket of the oxyclean (56oz)
two 1lb Red Devil TSP/90 (32ox)
1/2 of the 45oz box of the 7th heaven (24oz)

Total cost is $10.88 for 7lbs or $1.55 per LB.

@FloppyKnockers
@bradleypariah

 

[aeviaanah]

So all you Oregonians that want to buy this recipe, I found the
7th Heaven 45 oz powder at BiMart for $4.99 a box
Kroger Brand Oxyclean 56 oz powder at Fred Meyers for $4.39
Red Devil TSP/90 1lb powder at Fred Meyers for $3.99

So I am going to try this recipe:
one 56oz bucket of the oxyclean (56oz)
two 1lb Red Devil TSP/90 (32ox)
1/2 of the 45oz box of the 7th heaven (24oz)

Total cost is $10.88 for 7lbs or $1.55 per LB.

@FloppyKnockers
@bradleypariah

What are you using for dose rate?

 

[Jambro64]

What are you using for dose rate?

I think it says 1 oz per gallon somewhere in the thread.
I haven't mixed them yet but hopefully there is a scoop in the oxyclean.

Jim

 

[Jambro64]

Works quite well. Might be able to fit two recipe amounts in the one container.

And there was a 1 oz scoop in the oxyclean. YAY.

 

[whosradl]

The simplest recipe is 70% sodium percarbonate and 30% sodium metasilicate. It's working well for me. A few pages back I posted Amazon links to the cheapest chemicals I could find.

I found a 5 lb bag of sodium percarbonate and a 2.5 lb bag of sodium metasilicate on Amazon as per your suggestion. Is there any harm to just mixing both bags fully together? It would be 66.66% SP and 33.33% SM instead of the 70/30 split.

 

[Horseflesh]

I would be surprised if those proportions resulted in some kind of disaster. My bucket of powder is probably not mixed perfectly and I bet I've used off proportions because of that.

You do need to be careful not to let un-dissolved powder sit on the items you're cleaning as some, like aluminum, can be etched by the sodium metasilicate. Your mix will be a bit more prone to that. Just make sure to use hot water and dissolve all the powder before you walk away to let things soak. (I damaged an aluminum baking pan this way, but have been cavalier with glass and corny kegs and not had a problem.)

 

[b-boy]

Aluminum definitely is a problem with this stuff.

I never soak for more than an hour or so. If you leave it overnight, you'll end up with an interesting looking pot. Mine has tiger stripes.

 

[IslandLizard]

I found a 5 lb bag of sodium percarbonate and a 2.5 lb bag of sodium metasilicate on Amazon as per your suggestion. Is there any harm to just mixing both bags fully together? It would be 66.66% SP and 33.33% SM instead of the 70/30 split.

Close enough!
Or save some metasilicate out for next time you mix a batch. Or add when some extra will benefit, like recirculating through your hoses and chiller. I actually add some NaOH to that mix when recirculating boiling hot for a few hours.

I would be surprised if those proportions resulted in some kind of disaster. My bucket of powder is probably not mixed perfectly and I bet I've used off proportions because of that.

You do need to be careful not to let un-dissolved powder sit on the items you're cleaning as some, like aluminum, can be etched by the sodium metasilicate. Your mix will be a bit more prone to that. Just make sure to use hot water and dissolve all the powder before you walk away to let things soak. (I damaged an aluminum baking pan this way, but have been cavalier with glass and corny kegs and not had a problem.)

Aluminum is amphoteric and will dissolve in both acids and alkalis. Its passivating oxide is not very resistant to them either, or even chlorides (salt). So don't let aluminum objects soak for extended times in them. Best is to clean, use some detergent if needed and work quickly, rinse off thoroughly with water, then dry and leave exposed to air where the dark gray passivating oxide is (re)formed. Aluminum kettles and objects can last a lifetime or longer when handled correctly.

 

[MidniteFlyer]

The latest recipe is as follow

all Oxi Laundry Booster, Free Clear: 2x 52 Ounce tubs
Red Devil 0265 TSP 90 Heavy Duty Cleaner: 1x 4-Pound bag
Seventh Generation, Free & Clear Auto Dish Powder: 45 ounces (of a 75 Ounce box)

Wow, 569 posts in this thread! Spent the last hour reading these posts. So is this the latest recipe that we all agree on?

 

[jtratcliff]

So is this the latest recipe that we all agree on?

Depends on your definition of "agree"

Many of us are happy with 70/30 Oxi/TSP90 and don't see the need for the 7th Gen.... Many use the recipe as given and are quite happy with it.... Either way, you come out less expensive than PBW...

 

[MidniteFlyer]

Depends on your definition of "agree"

Many of us are happy with 70/30 Oxi/TSP90 and don't see the need for the 7th Gen.... Many use the recipe as given and are quite happy with it.... Either way, you come out less expensive than PBW...

ok i'll go with that! Oh the things we go thru to save a buck. Reminds me of how copper wire was invented. Two homebrewers fighting over a penny!

 

[Jambro64]

I noticed that it doesn't like cold water. I need to do a better job capturing my chiller water and recycle.

 

[JeffLacoy]

Hunted around a bit, my experience, in New England.

2x 3lb oxiclean versatile free @7.49 each
45oz seventh generation @5.42

Both at Hannaford supermarket. Tried a few local Ace hardware, no dice on tsp substitute, only the real stuff.

4lb bag tsp 90 on Amazon prime @19 after tax.

So 12.5lbs for $39.40, $3.15/lb, that math works for me!

 

[actionjackson905]

I have checked around here, but not even the little packets are at Canadian Tire around here. The Oxi with TSP works fine for me, not haze so our water must not be that hard.

Update for Canadians. 7th Gen is available at Nature's Emporium. I'll assume it would also be available at other Naturo/Organic grocery stores as well.

 

[jtratcliff]

2x 3lb oxiclean versatile free @7.49 each

You're paying for the Oxiclean name... you can find store brand "Oxygen Cleaner" for nearly half the price... Kroger brand is often $3.99 for example (see upthread)...

As long as it has only sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate (washing soda) with no fragrance, you're good to go!

 

[JeffLacoy]

I don't live near any such grocery store. And tried all the dollar stores. My heart isn't broken, still a great deal.

 

[jmcquesten]

OxiClean free (or generic substitute) and TSP90 at a 70/30 ratio is what I'm currently using.

 

[user 40839]

I don't live near any such grocery store. And tried all the dollar stores. My heart isn't broken, still a great deal.

Yeah, same thing here - have never found any oxygen-based cleaner that doesn’t have fragrance in it around these parts so end up paying for the Oxiclean name premium as well. Mind you, end of the day I’m still able to make a ~13lb tub of cleaner for about $2.50 a lb, which is a lot better than the $6+ the “real thing” costs. $50 for an 8lb tub now!!

 

[JeffLacoy]

I just ran a full brew day, my electric elements and kettle are just as shiny with my knock-off pbw, as it was with the brand name stuff.

 

[mullet6577]

I've read a large portion of this thread and saw mention earlier that the ingredients in TSP/90 had changed.
The MSDS for this TSP/90 doesn't list metasilicate.
Would I be better using just the metasilicate shown HERE ?

 

[JeffLacoy]

From the October 2017 revision, still 100% sodium metasilicate.

 

[matt_m]

Seems several of these ingredients are getting harder to find at retail stores.

None of the big box home improvement stores (Lowes/Home Depot/Menards) carry TSP/90, at least in this region. They are getting a phosphate-free version from the companies that supply them various other paint cleaners & solvents that have different chemical makeups. An Ace Hardware had one bag, but told me its a discontinued product at their warehouse. I called several others and they didn't carry it. Still shows as available to order online though from Ace so that's a little confusing. Amazon has it for $18-19 depending on the day which is 50% higher than the last bag at Ace.

The 7th Generation powder is unavailable at Walmart, Meijer, and now Kroger (found 2 boxes on clearance, but am told its discontinued across the region.) Target has a 75oz box still for about $7. The closest target to me had one facing on the bottom shelf with 2 boxes. Might not be around much longer as everyone is moving to pods. Its ridiculously expensive at Amazon @ $20 for 2 boxes.

Meijer and Walmart no longer carry a off-brand/generic oxygen cleaner around here, they only have the Oxyclean at $7-8/pack. Kroger still has theirs though.

 

[schematix]

Next time i'm just going to buy the 50lb bucket of real PBW.... at that volume its basically the same cost per lb as the DIY version.

 

[matt_m]

Yeah, I've got everything but the TSP/90 stockpiled for 3 batches and I'm looking for 2 more bags of that so I should be good for a good long time but I suspect when that's gone it will be better to just buy PBW.

 

[Yooper]

I've been using my homemade PBW for at least 8 months, and still have tons of it left. I think it works great for my hard water, and I'm going to keep doing it.

 

[Lax coach]

Made my first batch tonight:

2 x 3.5lb OxiClean Free ($8.49 ea Target)
1 x 4.5lb Savogran TSP ($9.69 Home Depot)
2/3 of 75oz 7th Generation Dish Detergent ($7.99 Whole Foods)

Very subtly off from the exact proportions, based on what sizes were available locally. Hopefully will work out well.

 

[BrunDog]

Keep in mind TSP and TSP/90 are not the same.

 

[Lax coach]

True, but upthread we determined that TSP/90 is likely used in PBW a substitute for TSP due to all the latter having phosphates. My understanding is that it should work at least as well if not better with the real thing. Haven't used it on any of my brew gear yet, but it sure did do a nice job on my stainless kitchen sink.

 

[soccerdad]

If any of you are looking for generic scent free oxy, you might try Big Lots. I got this for $5. Not the world's best price, but not bad.

 

[Jayjay1976]

True, but upthread we determined that TSP/90 is likely used in PBW a substitute for TSP due to all the latter having phosphates. My understanding is that it should work at least as well if not better with the real thing. Haven't used it on any of my brew gear yet, but it sure did do a nice job on my stainless kitchen sink.

I use the real tsp, it works very well for me and rinses easily.

 

[Miraculix]

Does anybody have recommendations for base products available in the UK?

 

[Lax coach]

I use the real tsp, it works very well for me and rinses easily.

Agreed. I'm loving my homemade PBW made with real TSP. Almost totally eliminates scrubbing from the process when cleaning my serving kegs, and I only have to very lightly scrub my brew kegs (I use a PicoBrew). They all rinse perfectly clean afterwards.

 

[IslandLizard]

Does anybody have recommendations for base products available in the UK?

Sorry can't give you any recommendations where to find the compounds in your country, but... here's the breakdown on the original 5-Stars PBW product.

Regardless of all the (7th Generation) adjuncts being added in this thread, let me reiterate: 5-Stars PBW consists of 70% Sodium Percarbonate and 30% Sodium Metasilicate, with a very small amount of Sodium EDTA added, which may be skipped for good measure.

The Sodium Percarbonate is probably around 98% pure (Tech grade), which means it isn't cut with much cheaper Sodium Carbonate (common washing soda aka soda ash). Oxiclean "(fragrance) Free" and generics are typically cut with washing soda as high as 40/60. The content should be listed on the container. But the oxygen action is much overrated IMO, so it doesn't matter if it's cut by quite a bit.

You can use TSP (TriSodium Phosphate) instead of Sodium Metasilicate. TSP was banned in some countries years ago, and Metasilicate is a suitable substitute when used as a cleaner/degreaser.

 

[Miraculix]

Sorry can't give you any recommendations where to find the compounds in your country, but... here's the breakdown on the original 5-Stars PBW product.

Regardless of all the (7th Generation) adjuncts being added in this thread, let me reiterate: 5-Stars PBW consists of 70% Sodium Percarbonate and 30% Sodium Metasilicate, with a very small amount of Sodium EDTA added, which may be skipped for good measure.

The Sodium Percarbonate is probably around 98% pure (Tech grade), which means it isn't cut with much cheaper Sodium Carbonate (common washing soda aka soda ash). Oxiclean "(fragrance) Free" and generics are typically cut with washing soda as high as 40/60. The content should be listed on the container. But the oxygen action is much overrated IMO, so it doesn't matter if it's cut by quite a bit.

You can use TSP (TriSodium Phosphate) instead of Sodium Metasilicate. TSP was banned in some countries years ago, and Metasilicate is a suitable substitute when used as a cleaner/degreaser.

Thanks for summing it up! I felt a bit lost seeing all those pages of this thread...

 

[TexasWine]

Sorry can't give you any recommendations where to find the compounds in your country, but... here's the breakdown on the original 5-Stars PBW product.

Regardless of all the (7th Generation) adjuncts being added in this thread, let me reiterate: 5-Stars PBW consists of 70% Sodium Percarbonate and 30% Sodium Metasilicate, with a very small amount of Sodium EDTA added, which may be skipped for good measure.

The Sodium Percarbonate is probably around 98% pure (Tech grade), which means it isn't cut with much cheaper Sodium Carbonate (common washing soda aka soda ash). Oxiclean "(fragrance) Free" and generics are typically cut with washing soda as high as 40/60. The content should be listed on the container. But the oxygen action is much overrated IMO, so it doesn't matter if it's cut by quite a bit.

You can use TSP (TriSodium Phosphate) instead of Sodium Metasilicate. TSP was banned in some countries years ago, and Metasilicate is a suitable substitute when used as a cleaner/degreaser.

If forgoing the dish detergent, what chelating agent(s) do you use?

 

[soccerdad]

Update for Canadians. 7th Gen is available at Nature's Emporium. I'll assume it would also be available at other Naturo/Organic grocery stores as well.

Also, home hardware in Canada has TSP if there is no tsp 90. Both work
http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/i...2pqfZ67l/Ne-67n/Ntk-All_EN/R-I1620188?Ntt=Tsp

 

[IslandLizard]

If forgoing the dish detergent, what chelating agent(s) do you use?

None!
Just 70/30 Percarbonate (Generic Oxiclean)/Meta Silicate. Works as well as the original PBW (I have it) at less than $3.00 a pound.

If I really need the extra umph from the Oxygen, I use the real stuff. Or let it soak in the homemade concoction for a day.

 

[TexasWine]

None!
Just 70/30 Percarbonate (Generic Oxiclean)/Meta Silicate. Works as well as the original PBW (I have it) at less than $3.00 a pound.

If I really need the extra umph from the Oxygen, I use the real stuff. Or let it soak in the homemade concoction for a day.

Is it effective in hard water without the chelates?


Edit: so in theory, I could buy these two things in the correct proportions and be good to go.

Sodium Percarbonate (Oxidizer) Kosher 25 Lb Consists of 5- 5 Lb Packs (9802) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GP6S0H8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Sodium Metasilicate 10 Lbs Consists of 2- 5 Lb packs (9789) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075ZDFYK1/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[IslandLizard]

Is it effective in hard water without the chelates?

That's a good question, my tap water is fairly soft. So YMMV, although I've not seen any reports of homemade PBW floccing out CaCO3 badly in hard water, and even if it did, I doubt it would cause any trouble. There's such an excess of CO3-- in that solution. It's very alkaline with a pH of around 12.

You can source EDTA, you only need a small amount, like 2% or so for hard water. I found this thread on various cleaner actions compared including the real PBW and the homemade version (very qualitatively). Mind you, the real PBW uses 100% Percarbonate, not cut with washing soda as most Oxiclean-like products are. 100% Percarbonate can be sourced too, it's really not that expensive.

Some good brushing helps when cleaning soiled surfaces...

I've covered my peeves with 7th Gen in this thread before. I don't get why adding mostly salt (NaCL) and a little citric acid would make a difference. I think the promise is that the Citrate ion can sequester, like EDTA, which it does not.