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Homemade PBW Recipe

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S-Met

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Nothing to try this on besides my moka-pot. Usually the top cleans well, but the bottom even with a scrubby it doesn't shine. Problem resolved with the newest recipe. Percentages are approx by weight.

73% oxiclean
24% tsp
3% tetrasodium EDTA

Boiled a pot of tap water carefully submerged the coffee pot and let it sit until I could handle it, between 90-120 min (working on other project).

Top was only rinsed, base got a mild scrub with the back scrubber side of a non-scratch sponge.
Screenshot_20180811-213524.jpeg
Screenshot_20180811-210653.jpeg
 

divrack

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That's a good question, my tap water is fairly soft. So YMMV, although I've not seen any reports of homemade PBW floccing out CaCO3 badly in hard water, and even if it did, I doubt it would cause any trouble. There's such an excess of CO3-- in that solution. It's very alkaline with a pH of around 12.

You can source EDTA, you only need a small amount, like 2% or so for hard water. I found this thread on various cleaner actions compared including the real PBW and the homemade version (very qualitatively). Mind you, the real PBW uses 100% Percarbonate, not cut with washing soda as most Oxiclean-like products are. 100% Percarbonate can be sourced too, it's really not that expensive.

Some good brushing helps when cleaning soiled surfaces...

I've covered my peeves with 7th Gen in this thread before. I don't get why adding mostly salt (NaCL) and a little citric acid would make a difference. I think the promise is that the Citrate ion can sequester, like EDTA, which it does not.
hi. in follow up for us uk people that dont get the branded stuff ive found good price for sodium percarbonate and metasilicate (which i understand is not tsp and is preferable?) but the only version of the metasilicate is the pentahydrate version, im guessing that as its all going into a solution anyway it wouldnt need to be the anhydrous form? but you seem like you have a fresher head of chemistry than i do. im assuming that the stuff listed in america is also pentahydrate, and that the anhydrous stuff would absorb moisture and become a hydrate anyway, but im just guessing and assuming here as i dont know nothin about nothin
 

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Nothing to try this on besides my moka-pot. Usually the top cleans well, but the bottom even with a scrubby it doesn't shine. Problem resolved with the newest recipe. Percentages are approx by weight.

73% oxiclean
24% tsp
3% tetrasodium EDTA

Boiled a pot of tap water carefully submerged the coffee pot and let it sit until I could handle it, between 90-120 min (working on other project).

Top was only rinsed, base got a mild scrub with the back scrubber side of a non-scratch sponge.View attachment 583302View attachment 583303
Success!

Were you able to test the base chemicals we discussed up thread?
 

IslandLizard

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hi. in follow up for us uk people that dont get the branded stuff ive found good price for sodium percarbonate and metasilicate (which i understand is not tsp and is preferable?) but the only version of the metasilicate is the pentahydrate version, im guessing that as its all going into a solution anyway it wouldnt need to be the anhydrous form? but you seem like you have a fresher head of chemistry than i do. im assuming that the stuff listed in america is also pentahydrate, and that the anhydrous stuff would absorb moisture and become a hydrate anyway, but im just guessing and assuming here as i dont know nothin about nothin
Either would work, real TSP or metasilicate (TSP substitute). I agree, metasilicate seems to be preferred over real TSP, not sure why, aside from environmental concerns.

The pentahydrate is the most commonly available form, although my (now empty) container doesn't list it as such. I think real PBW also uses the pentahydrate, so the 30% ratio of pentahydrate should be correct. Get whatever has the best price or is easiest obtainable.
Store in an airtight container, the mixture is still hygroscopic.

This MSDS sheet lists Sodium Carbonate at 20-30%, and Percarbonate at <25%. Never seen it specced out before like that. It's from 2009, and for a European company. Things may have changed since.
 

jtratcliff

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The Sodium metasilicate (TSP90) is what's actually in PBW... Serves the same purpose as regular TSP and probably is used instead of TSP for same reason laundry detergents switched to phosphate-free ... But either should work.

A few folks upthread have reported success w/ regular TSP
 

S-Met

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Success!

Were you able to test the base chemicals we discussed up thread?
I just received the EDTA yesterday. Only mixed in solution. I weighed out enough proportions for a 3gal mix. Just wanted to see it in action. To be fair, I don't know that the EDTA made a difference, the oxi-tsp hot h2o did the heavy lifting.

Regarding a dry mix and stability: haven't mixed a bulk batch yet. I'll report back this week.
 

divrack

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Either would work, real TSP or metasilicate (TSP substitute). I agree, metasilicate seems to be preferred over real TSP, not sure why, aside from environmental concerns.

The pentahydrate is the most commonly available form, although my (now empty) container doesn't list it as such. I think real PBW also uses the pentahydrate, so the 30% ratio of pentahydrate should be correct. Get whatever has the best price or is easiest obtainable.
Store in an airtight container, the mixture is still hygroscopic.

This MSDS sheet lists Sodium Carbonate at 20-30%, and Percarbonate at <25%. Never seen it specced out before like that. It's from 2009, and for a European company. Things may have changed since.
im sure you covered it earlier, but was your understanding that the percarbonate becomes sodium carbonate or contains sodium carbonate to some degree? hence using 65 percent percarbonate?
 

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im sure you covered it earlier, but was your understanding that the percarbonate becomes sodium carbonate or contains sodium carbonate to some degree? hence using 65 percent percarbonate?
From that MSDS it looks they use about half carbonate and half percarbonate, or a percarbonate source that's already mixed down with carbonate. That's news to me, as I'm sure I've seen specs that list just percarbonate (no carbonate) as one of the 3 main ingredients, the other 2 being metasilicate and chelators (e.g., EDTA)

When the percarbonate gets dissolved in water the peroxide splits off and creates O2, in a similar way as Hydrogen Peroxide releases O2. The carbonate (common washing soda) is left over. See this wiki.
If your source has a 40/60- to 70/30-some mixture of percarbonate/carbonate (or better) for the right price, compared to pure percarbonate, use it. Don't overthink it, they're just cleaners, precise dosage is not that important.

I feel the whole O2 action is much overrated, most home brewery equipment cleaning can be done with a carbonate/metasilicate mixture and a few hours soak, some heat, and/or the magic of a brush. That metasilicate component is a very good cleaner!
For that reason, I save my still clean PBW solutions and reuse them until they get grimey. The O2 has long gone by then.
 

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Is this still the recipe for the brewery wash? Thanks!
This is how I made mine and I am still using it a year later. I am pretty sure I had to sub the Sun-Oxi for Oxi-Clean fresh scent. It works very well and the fresh scent doesn't seem to matter; "I remember being concerned about that". During brew day I mix up a 5 gal bucket of this home made PBW, and a 5 gal bucket of Star-San and use them to wash and sanitize all my equipment. Clean first with PBW, then rinse with water, and then sanitize with Star-San; the same way they wash stuff in a BAR environment using 3 sinks.
 

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divrack

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From that MSDS it looks they use about half carbonate and half percarbonate, or a percarbonate source that's already mixed down with carbonate. That's news to me, as I'm sure I've seen specs that list just percarbonate (no carbonate) as one of the 3 main ingredients, the other 2 being metasilicate and chelators (e.g., EDTA)

When the percarbonate gets dissolved in water the peroxide splits off and creates O2, in a similar way as Hydrogen Peroxide releases O2. The carbonate (common washing soda) is left over. See this wiki.
If your source has a 40/60- to 70/30-some mixture of percarbonate/carbonate (or better) for the right price, compared to pure percarbonate, use it. Don't overthink it, they're just cleaners, precise dosage is not that important.

I feel the whole O2 action is much overrated, most home brewery equipment cleaning can be done with a carbonate/metasilicate mixture and a few hours soak, some heat, and/or the magic of a brush. That metasilicate component is a very good cleaner!
For that reason, I save my still clean PBW solutions and reuse them until they get grimey. The O2 has long gone by then.
o2 sounds fresh wholesome and clean. what it actually does is another question but if yo see bubbles bubbling you assume something is working... much better than just boring soaking ... always struck me as a gimmick largely too. anyway im just gonna mix up some shizz and see what it does. anymore reading about chemicals on wiki and the black helicopters are going to start circling..
 

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o2 sounds fresh wholesome and clean. what it actually does is another question but if yo see bubbles bubbling you assume something is working... much better than just boring soaking ... always struck me as a gimmick largely too. anyway im just gonna mix up some shizz and see what it does. anymore reading about chemicals on wiki and the black helicopters are going to start circling..
O2 and Co2 are only important because of its source. You could attempt to add soap and an O2 stone but the clening action is not the same.

The O2 come from peroxide and sodium percarbonates (Na2H3CO6 when added to H2O breaks down to Na, CO2 and H2O2 which reacts to the "soil" in your containers. As it decomposes it creates heat and the peroxide (H2O2) which further decomposes to H2O and O2. Once the reaction is done, all that remains is any detergents, but the peroxides are gone. Still fine as a soap, but you lose out on the additional cleaning power. Think of the scrubbing condoms, er um scrubbing bubbles https://goo.gl/images/nYPXqo

For a quick household experiment, take some hydrogen peroxide and saturate a dry, but slightly stinky sponge. It will start fizzing (H2O2 breaking down to H2O and O2.) Feel the sponge after the fizzing slows down and you may notice the temperature of the sponge has increased. Try it again with a new sponge, no fizzing, no heat, no biological nasties to oxidize.
 

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The decomposition of the peroxide creates nascent oxygen which is quite reactive.
 

divrack

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Ordered up enough chemicals to be on a watch list I'm sure...
Just thought I'd mention that I looked at the spec sheet on some UK one and it contains phosphorus so must be using tsp regular. Not surprising really we hate the environment here. Hashtag brexit hurrah
 

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Yes, approx mix by weight.
74% oxy
23% tsp
3% EDTA 4Na

Mixed into a 1/2 gal plastic screw top container. Very careful to avoid moisture.

@TexasWine I'm assuming you're in Texas. Relative humidity may have been enough to start the reaction.
Ah my bad. I meant have you mixed the base ingredients of parcarbonate, metasilicate and the EDTA. I suppose those branded items are the same thing, but was hoping you had bought and mixed the ingredients in their raw form.

Humidity is unworldly down here in Houston right now. I can't step outside without immediately sweating, and when I work out it looks like I took a shower, fully clothed. Water condenses on my double pane windows when the dew point reaches the point of being stupid. It's incredible human beings lived here before the invention of air conditioning.

I'll stop complaining now. We've got jobs, cheap real estate, incredible food and incredible people. I love it, except the humidity.
 

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I am going to need to refill my stock in the near future. Anyone in the southern Ontario area interested in splitting a large batch? I am looking at a mixture of 70/30 percarbonate/metasilicate with a bit of the EDTA because of how hard my water is(the original recipe has too much foam and residue on my brewery).

I found a source (http://prosupplyoutlet.com/) that has all three items available and cheaper than amazon. They start in 1lb packages but obviously get cheaper with volume. I can get shipped to my PO Box in Niagara Falls, NY for about $75 USD that will make about 27 pounds of the mixture.

If anyone is interested, shoot me a PM and we can work something out.

Cheers
 

divrack

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So mixed up the chemicals. Seems to be good using straight percarb, metasillicate and tetra edta.
Meta was pentahydrate form.

Side note is that I saw some pbw in a lhbs and it still contains phosphate here in the UK.
Who knew our environment boys were even worse than the epa!
 

divrack

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So mixed up the chemicals. Seems to be good using straight percarb, metasillicate and tetra edta.
Meta was pentahydrate form.

Side note is that I saw some pbw in a lhbs and it still contains phosphate here in the UK.
Who knew our environment boys were even worse than the epa!
Now who in the UK wants to buy an absurd amount of pbw of me??
 

divrack

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@divrack @BrionLax @S-Met @TexasWine

This working well for you guys?

By weight approx:
74% sodium percarbonate
23% sodium metasilicate pentahydrate
3% tetrasodium EDTA

Any tips for purchasing, mixing, storage? Thanks!
No it seems all good. I got the ingredients off Amazon and eBay, but I'm in rural scotland. Ended up getting loads.
I've been thinking of adding a surfectant though as there isn't anything doing that job as far as I understand (but much). Pbw here is still listed as containing phosphates at less than 5 percent and surfectant at less than 5 percent.
 

RPh_Guy

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I've been thinking of adding a surfectant
From the patent:
Preferred nonionic surfactants include octylphenoxy-polyethoxy-ethanol (e.g., sold under the trademark TRITON X-100), nonyl phenoxy ethyleneoxy ethanol (e.g., sold under the trademark IGEPAL CO730), pol,234yoxy ethoxylated ethanol (e.g., sold under the trademark RENEX ZO), glycol fatty esters (e.g., sold under the trademark HALLCO-376-N), fatty acid alkylanolamid (e.g., sold under the trademark ALKAMIDE 2110), cetyldimethyl amine oxide (e.g., sold under the trademark AMMONYX CO), aliphatic polyether (e.g., sold under the trademark ANTAROX LF-344), polyethylenated alkyl glycol amide (e.g., sold under the trademark ANTAROX G-200), fatty alcohol polyether (e.g., sold under the trademark AROSURE 63-PE-16), polyoxyethylene sorbitol esters of mixed fatty and resin acids (e.g., sold under the trademark ATLAS G-1234), modified oxyethylated straight-chain alcohol (e.g., sold under the trademark RENEX 648), modified oxyethoxylated straight-chain alcohols (e.g. sold under the trademark PLURAFACRA,ZO), alkylaryl polyether (e.g., sold under the trademark TRITON CF10), trifunctional polyoxyalkylene glycols (e.g., sold under the trademark PLURADOT HA-410), diethylene glycol dioleate, polyethylene glycol recinaleate, polyethylene glycol dioleate, tridecyl alcohol, nonylphenol, and ethylene oxide condensation products that are based on propylene oxide-propylene glycol (e.g., sold under the trademark PLURONIC L-61). Preferred anionic, surfactants include ethoxylated (3 moles) phosphate ester (e.g., sold under the trademark TRITON QS-44), sodium sulfate of 2 ethyl-a-hexanol (e.g., sold under the trademark TERGITOL 08), sodium petroleum sulfonate (e.g., sold under the trademark PETRONATE K), sodium alkyl naphthahalene sulfonate (e.g., sold under the trademark PETRO AR, SELLOGEN K, NEKAL BX-78, ALKANOL B), dioctyl ester of sodium sulfosuccinic acid (e.g., sold under the trademark ABRESOL OT), sodium alkylaryl sulfonate (e.g., sold under the trademark AHCOWETANS), sodium salt of sulfated alkylphenoxy poly(ethyleneoxy) ethanol (e.g., sold under the trademark ALIPAL EO-526), sodium methyl n-oleyl-taurate (e.g., sold under the trademark AMATER G T), alkyl polyphosphate (e.g., sold under the trademark ATCOWET C2), sodium lauryl sulfate (e.g., sold under the trademark AVIROL 101), sodium N-methyl-N-tall oil acid taurate (e.g., sold under the trademark IGEPON TK-32), lauric alkyloamine condensate (e.g., sold under the trademark NOPCOGEN 14-L), fatty alcohol sulfate modified (e.g. sold under the trademark RICHOLOL 4940) and modified diethanolamides of fatty acids (e.g., sold under the trademark SHERCOMID). Preferred amphoteric surfactants include disodium N-tallow betamino dipropionate (e.g., sold under the trademark DERIPHATE 154), sodium derivative of dicarboxylic caprylic acid (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL J2M, letithin (e.g., sold under the trademark CENTROL CA, LA), lauryl ampholytic (syndet) (e.g., sold under the trademark SCHERCOTERIC BASE 156), carboxylic acid derivatives of substituted imidazolines (e.g., sold under the trademark MONATERIC), complex coco betaine (e.g., sold under the trademark CARSONAM 3 AND 3147), fatty sulfobetaine (e.g., sold under the trademark LONZAINE CS), dicarboxylic coconut derivative triethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL TEA), dicarboxylic octoic derivative sodium salt (e.g. sold under the trademark MIRANOL JEM), dicarboxylic myristic derivative diethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL M2M-DEM), dicarboxylic myristic derivative monoethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL M2M-MEA), dicarboxylic myristic derivative sodium salt (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL M2M-SF), dicarboxylic captic derivative diethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL S2M-DEA), and dicarboxylic capric derivative triethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL S2M-TEA). Preferably, the cleaning composition contains from about 0 to about 8% by weight, and more preferably from about 0.5 to about 6% by weight of the surfactant.
There are a couple possible choices. You have a dart board?
 

S-Met

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Mix of online and local. EDTA4Na on Amazon. I had the oxi and tsp already. When its time to remix, price (including shipping) will determine what ingredients I order. The EDTA4Na will last a couple years, depending on other uses.

Mixed up a 12lb batch in a 5gal bucket. Used a drill and a non-metal paint mixing paddle.

I am storing it in a 2gal bucket with a lid and a screw-top canister thats just a little larger than a lme canister. I think I got them from morebeer. https://www.morebeer.com/products/1-gallon-plastic-jar-110-mm-wide-mouth-lid.html
 

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I've been using this with success for kettles and fermenters, for months now. Can this also be used to clean the keg lines? Also, does the water need to be hot to use this?
 

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The EDTA4Na will last a couple years, depending on other uses.
Other uses for a chelate? I guess some people are into metallic bondage.

I did some number crunching.
I can get PBW for $6/lb for 4lbs OR
I can get PBW for $3.44/lb for 50lbs
This percarbonate/metasilicate/EDTA I can make for $2.27/lb about 34lbs at a time.
If I use percarbonate alone, that's only $1.88/lb for 25lbs OR $2.35/lb for 10lbs.

Interestingly, Straight A, B-Brite, One Step, and Alkaline Brewery Wash were all more expensive by weight than the bulk PBW. What a rip-off! Bleach, dish soap, or any other nonsense are out of the question.

Adding individual surfactant and/or gelling agents to the homemade formulation would increase the cost (and it's not AS good as PBW without them, presumably).

I'm kind of on the fence about what to get. I soak my plastic fermenters after each use and the rest of my cold side equipment after every couple uses. However mostly I currently use it for de-labeling and cleaning bottles; maybe it's overkill for that purpose.

Thoughts?
 

S-Met

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read in a fortune cookie once that warm water is better than hot so the peroxide doesn't break down too quickly.
worst chinese restaurant ever...MSG for certain.

Other uses for a chelate? I guess some people are into metallic bondage.
wife's hobby is making skin/hair care and cosmetic products.

And yes, into metallic bondage, I could not do my job without it. Chelation of otherwise toxic molecules lets me do amazing things. Couple that with Hydrogen protons and a steady stream of focused electrons and I've got tools to change your life.
 

MaxStout

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I'm kind of on the fence about what to get. I soak my plastic fermenters after each use and the rest of my cold side equipment after every couple uses. However mostly I currently use it for de-labeling and cleaning bottles; maybe it's overkill for that purpose.

Thoughts?
I've found that just Oxiclean (or whatever generic equiv.) is plenty effective for removing labels. PBW clone would be overkill for labels, but if that's what you have on hand, that works. You don't need much, anyway. A half tablespoon in a gallon of water makes labels drop off the bottles overnight.
 

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I've found that just Oxiclean (or whatever generic equiv.) is plenty effective for removing labels. PBW clone would be overkill for labels, but if that's what you have on hand, that works. You don't need much, anyway. A half tablespoon in a gallon of water makes labels drop off the bottles overnight.
I think this is dependent on which brewery the bottles came from. I've had some drop right off, while others won't budge even after a 24 hour soak in Oxyclean. I'm hoping this PBW recipe will help with the tougher ones.

So I've read the first 40 posts, and the last 30. Can anybody point me to the post with the most current recipe y'all are using? Thanks!
 

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People seem happy with just percarbonate, or percarbonate with metasilicate, but PBW has other stuff that makes it more effective (chelate, surfactant, gelling agent).

I decided to order the pure percarbonate (better and cheaper than OxiClean/generics). I'll give it a try by itself.
If it needs more oomph, I can just try using more or add the other ingredients later.
 

piojo

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And yes, into metallic bondage, I could not do my job without it. Chelation of otherwise toxic molecules lets me do amazing things. Couple that with Hydrogen protons and a steady stream of focused electrons and I've got tools to change your life.
Are you talking about electron beam welding? How do you use chelates in that?
 
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