Homemade PBW Recipe

[_TheTrevster_]

Jousting was three-quarters horsemanship according to Jaime Lannister, and good brewing is 75% cleaning according to John Palmer. The pinnacle of cleaning in homebrewing is undeniably PBW, but we all know how cost prohibitive it is. Tons of threads exist with alternative options, most of which include one or more of oxiclean, the TSP substitute sodium metasilicate, and some form of powdered detergent. By combining these ingredients, we can easily match this patent description for most alkaline cleaners (such as PBW) linked by fellow user cjang.

...Here's the patent for PBW style cleaners.
http://tinyurl.com/7n4qg5r

The specific products I've chosen are Sun Oxygen cleaner, Seventh Generation powdered dishwasher detergent, and Red Devil TSP substitute.

The numbers work out in our favor, and soon I hope to test the results vs. real PBW.

 

[DanH]

Awesome


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[matthewmurray]

Looks good to me. Forgive my ignorance, but what does each ingredient bring to the trinity? I've been using OxiClean only.

 

[_TheTrevster_]

what does each ingredient bring to the trinity? I've been using OxiClean only.

Oxiclean is what a lot of users recommend, and if I could get away with it I would. Unfortunately the water I use has a hardness over 400 ppm, and I need the chelator from the detergent to bind to the leftover metal ions on my equipment.

As far as the TSP substitute, this is from the patent "the metasilicate and builder peptize or emulsify (e.g. solubilize) proteins or fat. The metasilicate and builder together provide sufficient alkalinity to sopanify the high levels of fat in many foreign deposits."

Since the ph of Oxiclean can be up to 11, I'm not sure if this is absolutely necessary. Considering it is the most expensive ingredient, it's probably worth finding out

 

[IvanBrew]

The specific products I've chosen are Sun Oxygen cleaner, Seventh Generation powdered detergent, and Red Devil TSP substitute.

Are you using Seventh Generation's laundry powder, or dish powder?

 

[_TheTrevster_]

The Seventh Generation powdered dishwasher detergent. I found it at Target in my area.

 

[Csuho]

Have you used this mix yet tk see how it works? I am curious as I have very hard water too.
If your using the 7th gen dishwasher powder for the chelate why not just use citric ackd powder? Or do the surfactants in the dishwasher powder help?

 

[eric19312]

Nice work.

The Red Devil appears to be the pentahydrate form of sodium metasilicate. That means it is 43% water by weight vs the anhydrous form specified in the linked patent. Should still be ok as you are then about 18% metasilicate. However you may be low on the "important ratio" of surfactant to metasilicate.

Proof is in the pudding...how about designing an experiment to test this stuff out? Something side by side with PBW in a controlled condition relevant to homebrewing.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

So, is that the quantities shown, in the left hand column, to be combined to make this supposed elixir?

I'm getting ready to do a mod on a hand me down dishwasher, re-purposed for brewery duty, and this might be a good opportunity to try it out.

 

[_TheTrevster_]

Have you used this mix yet tk see how it works? I am curious as I have very hard water too.
If your using the 7th gen dishwasher powder for the chelate why not just use citric ackd powder? Or do the surfactants in the dishwasher powder help?

I have used this mixture to clean every piece of equipment for the last 4 batches I have brewed, with no infections.

We don't need to add any additional citric acid, as the 7th Gen dish-washing detergent already contains enough citric acid to meet the requirements of the patent.

 

[_TheTrevster_]

The Red Devil appears to be the pentahydrate form of sodium metasilicate.

...how about designing an experiment to test this stuff out? Something side by side with PBW in a controlled condition relevant to homebrewing.

Thank you! I had not noticed the difference in the Sodium Metasilicate types. This new spec sheet reflects a 47% reduction in the weight of the Sodium Metasilicate. The only ratio that moves outside of an acceptable range is Metasilicate to Surfactant, and it can be solved in the next batch by reducing the 7th Generation detergent to 40oz.

I'd love to get an experiment together, I just don't know how to effectively measure the results. Both items I use will inevitably be 'Clean'.

 

[_TheTrevster_]

So, is that the quantities shown, in the left hand column, to be combined to make this supposed elixir?

I'm getting ready to do a mod on a hand me down dishwasher, re-purposed for brewery duty, and this might be a good opportunity to try it out.

Exactly! Just buy a 96 oz tub of Sun Oxygen Cleaner, a 4 lb bag of Red Devil TSP/90, and a 45 oz box of 7th Generation Dish-washing Detergent, and mix them together in a bucket. You can even use the scoop that comes with the Sun Oxygen Cleaner!

I hope your brew-washer works well

 

[Csuho]

TheTrevster
what I had ment was to use the citric acid and a cheap dishwasher powder in place of the 7th gen powder. Also have you tried saving the cleaning solution and reusing it like you can with pbw?

 

[eric19312]

I'd love to get an experiment together, I just don't know how to effectively measure the results. Both items I use will inevitably be 'Clean'.

I'm thinking about the experiment. Am thinking I could ferment 10 gal batch in two carboys and let the krausen dry on for a week after racking and dumping the yeast. Then clean with Mark II Carboy washer and record how clean the Carboy is every few min. Would make fresh solution using same temperature of water before each test. Problem is this is test of "visibly clean" whereas Five Star seems to promote PBW as cleaning the stuff you can't see in addition to the stud you can see. At least this is my understanding of supposed superiority over just using Oxyclean.

I actually have 2 carboys running side by side right now with an ESB. Problem is one got S04 and the other got Nottingham so not perfectly controlled.



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[eric19312]

Another question. Do you have a sources for the compositions of the other ingredients? Thought this was interesting analysis of the Sun Oxygen cleaner that puts their composition at 57.6% carbonate vs 42.4% percarbonate. This is very close to the middle of the range Sun claims on their MSDS (40-70%).

This change would change your Peroxygen amount to 40 oz, 20% of the overall formula, which is below the ideal for that component and will also impact the peroxygen to chelate ratio...

http://www.umich.edu/~chemstu/conte...pics_notes/Bracken_JCE_2005_p762_oxyclean.pdf

 

[thefost]

Great post! I've been looking for something like this for a while now.

Where were you able to find the 7th gen and sun oxygen cleaners for that cheap? I found the TSP/90 at ace hardware, but can't find the other two as cheaply as you did.

 

[_TheTrevster_]

Great post! I've been looking for something like this for a while now.

Where were you able to find the 7th gen and sun oxygen cleaners for that cheap? I found the TSP/90 at ace hardware, but can't find the other two as cheaply as you did.

7th generation - Target

Sun oxygen Cleaner - WalMart (most dollar stores too)

 

[goaticus]

One question. Are all these components scent-free? I bought some OxyClean a while back at Costco to use and as soon as I opened the bag, I noticed it definitely had a scent addition. I do not feel comfortable using anything scented on my equip.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Oxy-Clean "free" is the unscented one.

If you a "Dollar General" store in your neck of the woods, they carry an "Oxygenated stain remover", Dollar General brand, that is the same makeup as Oxy-Clean, and it is unscented as well.

4$ a tub on the East Coast.

 

[Ramitt]

One question. Are all these components scent-free? I bought some OxyClean a while back at Costco to use and as soon as I opened the bag, I noticed it definitely had a scent addition. I do not feel comfortable using anything scented on my equip.

That is my concern as well.

 

[_TheTrevster_]

One question. Are all these components scent-free? I bought some OxyClean a while back at Costco to use and as soon as I opened the bag, I noticed it definitely had a scent addition. I do not feel comfortable using anything scented on my equip.

Yes! The products in my list are all scent free.

If you buy regular OxiClean, or a different brand of dishwashing detergent then you will most likely be getting a scent addition, and different ratios of the necessary compounds.

 

[Rob_Cincy]

Quick question - Same reco usage as for PBW?

 

[_TheTrevster_]

Quick question - Same reco usage as for PBW?

Yes. I use ~1 oz. per gallon of warm water.

The 1 oz. scoop that comes with the Sun Oxygen Cleaner works great for this.

 

[stamandster]

So I'm assuming your only getting the Seventh Gen for the Sodium Chloride and Sulfate? Or is it for the Citric Acid and Polyaspertate (chelates)?

Couple things, you can generally get Sodium Percarbonate and Sodium Carbonate in the pool section in Walmart, 4 or 5 lbs each for under $10 each. Also, supposedly you can make Sodium Carbonate (or Washing Soda) from Baking Soda (cook at 400f, to take bicarbonate into carbonate, water and carbon dioxide).

Sodium metasilicate is created by fusing sodium carbonate with silica sand at about 1400 degrees celsius. Sodium metasilicate enhances cleaning performance and efficiency primarily by softening water. Which is most likely why you can leave it out if you have soft water. Which is what sodium carbonate is supposed to do too!

I'm wondering though if you could use Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) in place of the "TSP" sub that uses Sodium Metasilicate? Just more?

Not sure on the chelate sub...

Not trying to make PWB exactly btw... just trying to break down what the ingredients are and why.

As for the "citric acid" what about just using powdered citric acid?

Sodium chloride is table salt, btw.

Wonder also about subbing the Epsom salt for Sodium Sulfate.

 

[cgrivois]

Damn it. I read PBR recipie and got all excited.

 

[raouliii]

..... Do you have a sources for the compositions of the other ingredients? Thought this was interesting analysis of the Sun Oxygen cleaner that puts their composition at 57.6% carbonate vs 42.4% percarbonate. This is very close to the middle of the range Sun claims on their MSDS (40-70%).

This change would change your Peroxygen amount to 40 oz, 20% of the overall formula, which is below the ideal for that component and will also impact the peroxygen to chelate ratio...

http://www.umich.edu/~chemstu/conte...pics_notes/Bracken_JCE_2005_p762_oxyclean.pdf

So much for the assumption that all peroxygen based cleaners are equal. It's more likely a, you get what you pay for, situation.

This is an important finding, as it reduces the SUN peroxygen component to a much lower value with a definite impact on meeting the stated specifications. Based on the linked test results, Oxiclean may be a better option, although the report states that the now available "Versatile" product has a different formulation. I took a look at the seventh generation MSDS and it has very wide ranging percentages on its ingredients. Do you have a source for any more accurate values?

 

[stamandster]

Here's the PBW MSDS - http://www.midwestsupplies.com/media/downloads/312/PBW MSDS Sheet.pdf

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/media/downloads/311/PBW Tech Sheet.pdf

"a buffered alkaline detergent" and "To help in hard water areas P.B.W. has been formulated with enough chelators to tolerate hard water over 17 grains". Importantly "pH OF 1% SOLUTION 12.0%". Interestingly it lists "phosphates".

 

[WoodJRx]

I just made a batch of this, and it works amazing! I'm a bit worried about prolonged exposure to glass based on the warning on the TSP/90, but for my cleaning, it's great!

So, for $22.54 (including tax, but not the 2 gallon bucket to keep it in) I netted 12.5lbs of PBW-like cleaner. That's a steal!

 

[Kfun123]

Are the surfactant and gelling agent (table salt) really necessary? I am thinking about mixing 9lb Oxygen cleaner, 4lb TSP/90, and 1lb Citric Acid. I have really hard water so I figured the 7% by weight for the citric acid (chelating agent) would help with mineral deposits. Do you think this will still be effective?

 

[eric19312]

Are the surfactant and gelling agent (table salt) really necessary? I am thinking about mixing 9lb Oxygen cleaner, 4lb TSP/90, and 1lb Citric Acid. I have really hard water so I figured the 7% by weight for the citric acid (chelating agent) would help with mineral deposits. Do you think this will still be effective?

It will probably be effective as many people claim oxygen cleaner alone provides good cleaning results. I have yet to see a convincing side by side experiment comparing cleaners and am a bit at a loss on how such an experiment could be designed. As for me I am sticking with PBW as I know it works and have found lots of ways to use less while maintaining required concentrations (Mark II keg and carboy washer for example).

 

[goaticus]

So much for the assumption that all peroxygen based cleaners are equal. It's more likely a, you get what you pay for, situation.

This is an important finding, as it reduces the SUN peroxygen component to a much lower value with a definite impact on meeting the stated specifications. Based on the linked test results, Oxiclean may be a better option, although the report states that the now available "Versatile" product has a different formulation. I took a look at the seventh generation MSDS and it has very wide ranging percentages on its ingredients. Do you have a source for any more accurate values?

So, this sounds substantial. Does this mean that it would be better to have a higher ratio of the SunOxy in the recipe, or that it would be better to just spend the extra bucks on the Oxyclean Free and use it at the current formula ratio? Luckily, the OXY is the only ingredient I haven't purchased yet.

 

[WoodJRx]

It's worth noting, that even in the paper, it discusses the form of OxyClean they are using. Apparently the Oxy in the paper is NOT the oxy we have available in the USA for general sale. The version now available is significantly different (reduced) strength, it seems.

1. The OxiClean that was used in this experiment is known
as OxiClean Multi-Purpose Stain Remover (the original formula)
and is no longer sold in stores. The OxiClean Multi-Purpose Stain
Remover can still be purchased from the company's Web site, http:/
/www.OxiClean.com (accessed Feb 2005). In 2004 Orange Glo In-
ternational launched production of OxiClean known as OxiClean
Versatile Stain Remover that contains silicates, detergent, and a pro-
prietary polymer additives. The organic components char upon
heating releasing noxious smoke from the test tube. The original
formula should be used in this experiment.

Or at least, that's what I got out of that. I'm not sure, though. To be honest, I had pretty good results with just "OxyClean Free" I got at the store, and this combo seems to work even better (less scrubbing, etc).

EDIT for spelling.

 

[stamandster]

You can get Sodium Metasilicate from Landmark TSP, my local True Value had it.

 

[orangemen5]

Does this recipe rinse as well as PBW also? It's the only reason I use PBW over oxiclean. You have to rinse oxiclean a million times to clean.

 

[WoodJRx]

I have to rinse once or twice, usually. Probably because I use 1 scoop in a gallon or two swish, sponge, and rinse. More diluted, and I think a thorough rinse would be enough. Can't say for sure, though.

 

[HarryGrowth]

I'm going to try this. I've got some bad ass cleaning to do. Haven't brewed since my son was born. He's 17. Left carboys uncapped for that time. I'm scraping mice off the bottom of the carboys with a broom stick. We'll put this to the test. I soaked in Oxy yesterday and everything came off but I want to do it again. Carboys have a film on the inside I'm hoping Star San takes care of.

 

[goaticus]

I'm going to try this. I've got some bad ass cleaning to do. Haven't brewed since my son was born. He's 17. Left carboys uncapped for that time. I'm scraping mice off the bottom of the carboys with a broom stick. We'll put this to the test. I soaked in Oxy yesterday and everything came off but I want to do it again. Carboys have a film on the inside I'm hoping Star San takes care of.

WOW! That is an impressively disgusting test you have set up. I think I'd use lye for the first soak on that situation or maybe just find some used ones on craigslist and toss those. You're a brave man, though, and I respect that. Maybe just don't tell that story to anyone you share your brew with.

 

[fixitoscar]

I'm going to try this. I've got some bad ass cleaning to do. Haven't brewed since my son was born. He's 17. Left carboys uncapped for that time. I'm scraping mice off the bottom of the carboys with a broom stick. We'll put this to the test. I soaked in Oxy yesterday and everything came off but I want to do it again. Carboys have a film on the inside I'm hoping Star San takes care of.

Yuk! lol

Just remember starsan isn't a cleaner its a sanitizer. If there is a film you still need to clean it.

 

[nickmv]

I've made some homemade PBW, and it was super simple to put together.

My local grocery store has its own version of Oxiclean Free (identical recipe -- no perfumes or chlorine), so I grabbed that and a 4lb bag of TSP/90.

Easy mixture of 3.5lbs Oxi-free to 1.5lbs TSP/90, mixed together thoroughly. I use it all the time, no issues whatsoever.

 

[DurtyChemist]

Just went to Walmart and Lowes and picked all of this up. Bought a different brand of dish soap but my total cost was under $20. Purchased a 2 gallon bucket at Lowes with a lid as a container so I can add everything, cap and roll to mix.