Homemade PBW Recipe

[02fx4dude]

I picked up ingredients for this mixture yesterday. The TSP/90 was easy to find, however I don't go to walmart, so I found oxyclean free at Target, on sale 3.99/3lb. Also at Target I only found a 75oz box of the 7th Gen Dish detergent, not 100% sure it's the same product the OP has specified.

Got all the ingredients mixed up and cleaned a bunch of empty bottles I had laying around, using my usual soak and rinse methods. Initial impressions are good, I didn't do anything different in my procedures and the bottles dried without a white/chalky residue. My experiences using oxiclean alone resulted in residue that dried on and was difficult to remove, due to the hard tap water.

One thing I noticed different from PBW was foam/suds. Not a lot, but some. PBW didn't do that.

So at this point I give it one thumb up, the other thumb to be decided after I do some real cleaning(I expect to have some empty kegs by next week).

Thanks Trevster for posting this, great info, I've been looking for an alternative to PBW since prices went up 25% earlier this year.

 

[orangemen5]

I picked up ingredients for this mixture yesterday. The TSP/90 was easy to find, however I don't go to walmart, so I found oxyclean free at Target, on sale 3.99/3lb. Also at Target I only found a 75oz box of the 7th Gen Dish detergent, not 100% sure it's the same product the OP has specified.



Got all the ingredients mixed up and cleaned a bunch of empty bottles I had laying around, using my usual soak and rinse methods. Initial impressions are good, I didn't do anything different in my procedures and the bottles dried without a white/chalky residue. My experiences using oxiclean alone resulted in residue that dried on and was difficult to remove, due to the hard tap water.



One thing I noticed different from PBW was foam/suds. Not a lot, but some. PBW didn't do that.



So at this point I give it one thumb up, the other thumb to be decided after I do some real cleaning(I expect to have some empty kegs by next week).



Thanks Trevster for posting this, great info, I've been looking for an alternative to PBW since prices went up 25% earlier this year.

The constant rinsing you have to do with oxiclean is the biggest reason I use PBW. I hate rinsing things a million times. Glad to hear it rinses easier when it's mixed with the other ingredients. I'll probably give this a try.

 

[HarryGrowth]

I'm going to try this. I've got some bad ass cleaning to do. Haven't brewed since my son was born. He's 17. Left carboys uncapped for that time. I'm scraping mice off the bottom of the carboys with a broom stick. We'll put this to the test. I soaked in Oxy yesterday and everything came off but I want to do it again. Carboys have a film on the inside I'm hoping Star San takes care of.

I think it works pretty good! Of course you have to brew something ala Ed Wort's Haus Pale Ale to give a proper test. I think I soaked 3 times.

 

[HarryGrowth]

Holy Schmidt those pix are big.

 

[orangehero]

So the mouse proteins contribute to lacing? You might be on to something here.

 

[HarryGrowth]

Or on something!

 

[JonGrafto]

Does anyone know a good substitute for TSP/90?
I have been to 5 different stores and none of them carry the Red Devil brand....

Help!

 

[mcotter]

Does anyone know a good substitute for TSP/90?
I have been to 5 different stores and none of them carry the Red Devil brand....

Help!

Curious about this as well. I can find Savogran brand TSP at HD/Lowes but haven't been able to figure out if it's the exact same stuff. Red Devil advertises that it's phosphate free (still not sure Tri-Sodium Phosphate can be phosphate free haha but that's another discussion) while this brand does not.

 

[botigol]

I got my bag of Red Devil TSP/90 at Ace Hardware. HD and Lowe's had liquid versions from other brands, which may have worked, but I passed on those.

 

[thefost]

Curious about this as well. I can find Savogran brand TSP at HD/Lowes but haven't been able to figure out if it's the exact same stuff. Red Devil advertises that it's phosphate free (still not sure Tri-Sodium Phosphate can be phosphate free haha but that's another discussion) while this brand does not.

That is NOT the same stuff.

TSP is trisodium phosphate
The Red Devil TSP/90 is sodium metasilicate, which is much more environmentally friendly and is what is in PBW

So totally different stuff. Although I am curious how effective real tsp would be.

 

[JonGrafto]

I tried Ace, Menards, Walmart, Target and even Sherwin Williams (it is a wall-wash prep for painting).

I ended up ordering online from BTU Supply... Cheapest when you add shipping.

http://www.btusupply.com/p-59025-45lb-tsp-sub-cleaner.aspx

 

[helibrewer]

That is NOT the same stuff.

TSP is trisodium phosphate
The Red Devil TSP/90 is sodium metasilicate, which is much more environmentally friendly and is what is in PBW

So totally different stuff. Although I am curious how effective real tsp would be.

I use real TSP in my mixture...works great.

 

[b-boy]

I order Red Devil TSP/90 online from Amazon,com or Ace.com. I can't find it locally either.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

I use real TSP in my mixture...works great.

Give it up!

Where do you find "real" Tri Sodium Phosphate ?

 

[helibrewer]

Give it up!

Where do you find "real" Tri Sodium Phosphate ?

70% OxiClean, 30% TSP. The HD here in Cali sells the regular TSP....which really surprised me.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

That's all that it mentions on the package, as far as "ingredients", is T S P ?

If it's "straight up" Tri Sodium Phosphate, it is amazing, 'specially in California, for anything resembling a real "phosphate", has been removed from laundry detergents, ( re: "Tide"), and from fertilizers due to the runoff of said products.

Amazing, if that's what it is!

 

[mcotter]

That is NOT the same stuff.

TSP is trisodium phosphate
The Red Devil TSP/90 is sodium metasilicate, which is much more environmentally friendly and is what is in PBW

So totally different stuff. Although I am curious how effective real tsp would be.

Good to know. Thanks!

 

[rbrandon87]

I am officially a believer in this magic recipe, thank you so much for making this happen! I love PBW, but hate the price. I just made up this exact mixture and it works at least as good as PBW! So far I have cleaned a keg, carboy and 4 glasses with it and everything came out great!

96oz Sun Oxygen Cleaner + 45oz Seventh Gen Dish Detergent + 4lb Red Devil TSP/90 = $2.00/lb awesomeness!

 

[jtratcliff]

Anybody have an alternate cheap source for Sun Oxygen cleaner? Wally World near me doesn't seem to carry it anymore and it's not available to order on-line from them either... Might have to buy some pure Sodium Percarbonate in bulk and mix up my own with Arm & Hammer Washing soda (Sodium Carbonate)...

LA’s Totally Awesome® Power Oxygen Base Cleaner is $1/lb at dollar tree but it seems to have other crap in it and I can't find any info on what the Percarbonate percentage is anyway. Got some for the laundry but won't use for cleaning my gear...

 

[vincentAlpha]

I just use Oxyclean, don't think it is non-rinse or anything but cleans like a champ, everything looks damn good after a rinse or two. Changed how I clean my gear to be honest. Could probably get away with using the store brand, they have sodium percarbonate listed in the chem info.

 

[chawn]

I use 2 parts Oxyclean Free, 1 part sodium metasilicate, and 1.3 oz per pound citric acid (I have hard water). It works as well for me.

 

[jtratcliff]

I can get Oxiclean easily enough, but the Versatile Free is double the price that Sun Oxygen Cleaner used to be at Walmart. Oxi Versatile Free is $6.98 /3 lbs right now, for instance. Sun was less than that for 6lb!

If I can't locate another cheap source for Sun, I'll probably go for the 10lb bags of pure Sodium Percarbonate off e-bay for $23 shipped. Mix with Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda to get my "Oxiclean" then TSP-90 & 7th Gen for the full DIY PBW.

 

[DrunkleJon]

Anybody have an alternate cheap source for Sun Oxygen cleaner? Wally World near me doesn't seem to carry it anymore and it's not available to order on-line from them either... Might have to buy some pure Sodium Percarbonate in bulk and mix up my own with Arm & Hammer Washing soda (Sodium Carbonate)...

LA’s Totally Awesome® Power Oxygen Base Cleaner is $1/lb at dollar tree but it seems to have other crap in it and I can't find any info on what the Percarbonate percentage is anyway. Got some for the laundry but won't use for cleaning my gear...

Should have a version of oxy at the dollar store. It has been a while since I visited, so it may not be the free type. The totally awesome is great for general purpose cleaning, but I dont think I would use it for brewing.

 

[jtratcliff]

Should have a version of oxy at the dollar store.

I checked Dollar Tree (where I got the LA's Totally Awesome Oxi) and 99c Only but found nothing useful... 99c Only didn't have any plain old oxi, only laundry soap w/ oxi.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Do you have a "Family Dollar " store there?

That's where I buy mine...........4 bucks a tub, unscented.

Comes from the same factory as the high dollar brands, so sayeth the purchaser @ Family Dollar.

 

[phug]

I called the canada and Latin America salesperson at red-devil today to find out if any of their customers in canada purchase tsp-90 from them. Her initial response was 99.9% sure that they didn't. She's going to pull some reports and get me some info on ordering/ shipping. The end result may be no homemade pbw for me. I'll just have to buy re real stuff

 

[actionjackson905]

I called the canada and Latin America salesperson at red-devil today to find out if any of their customers in canada purchase tsp-90 from them. Her initial response was 99.9% sure that they didn't. She's going to pull some reports and get me some info on ordering/ shipping. The end result may be no homemade pbw for me. I'll just have to buy re real stuff

Can I ask why you are stuck on Red Devil? As regular TSP is readily available in Canada. I have been using a 70-30% mix of Oxy Clean Free Advanced (green lid) and TSP with amazing results. To the point I won't go back to PBW. The big bonus I have noticed is that I even use less powder now with the same results.

 

[phug]

Because trisodium phosphate isn't the the ingredient found in pbw. Sodium meta silicate is, which in red devil tsp90

Trisodium phosphate I can find everywhere

 

[jtratcliff]

Red Devil TSP-90 is on Amazon.ca... E-bay has sodium metasilicate from a few sellers that look like they ship internationally, although in some cases the shipping costs more than the product...

As mentioned, you could probably just use straight TSP... Since Sodium Metasilicate (TSP-90) is supposed to be a phosphate free TSP substitute...

 

[jtratcliff]

Do you have a "Family Dollar " store there?

There are some around... not terribly close by, though. I'll see if can swing by one sometime.

How big is the tub? The Sun Cleaner at Walmart used to be 6lbs for $5ish

 

[actionjackson905]

Because trisodium phosphate isn't the the ingredient found in pbw. Sodium meta silicate is, which in red devil tsp90

Trisodium phosphate I can find everywhere

Red Devil TSP-90 is on Amazon.ca... E-bay has sodium metasilicate from a few sellers that look like they ship internationally, although in some cases the shipping costs more than the product...

As mentioned, you could probably just use straight TSP... Since Sodium Metasilicate (TSP-90) is supposed to be a phosphate free TSP substitute...

That's where I was going. PBW probably uses Sodium Metasilicate due to the environmental restrictions in some states/provinces. TSP would be the preferred additive in my humble opinion.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Approx. the same size..........Never really looked, but it looked like a good amount to me for "4 bucks", so I grabbed a couple, and it works just the same.

 

[phug]

That's where I was going. PBW probably uses Sodium Metasilicate due to the environmental restrictions in some states/provinces. TSP would be the preferred additive in my humble opinion.

will the reactions be the same using TSP over metasilicate? is the safety level the same?

 

[jtratcliff]

From:
http://www.housekeepingchannel.com/hcp_195-Trisodium_phosphate_TSP

Both TSP and sodium metasilicate are highly alkaline. Dust from these powders can irritate the nose, eyes and lungs. When mixed with water to form a cleaning solution, prolonged exposure to both chemicals can cause skin irritation. Wear protective gloves, eye protection and long sleeved shirts and pants while using these products. Wear a dust mask while mixing these powders with water if dust irritates nasal passages.

So they're similar in that they are strong bases (but not as strong as lye), that they dissolve well in water, and that they rinse off well.

Even Palmer mentions TSP as an effective post-ferment cleaner:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter2-2-1.html

 

[actionjackson905]

will the reactions be the same using TSP over metasilicate? is the safety level the same?

When I found a post about the mixture of Oxy/TSP there was mention of Red Devil TSP-90 being the alternative to TSP. TSP was readily available to me here, so I gave it a shot. I honestly was skeptical about it working as I liked how PBW worked for me. I was pleasantly surprised how well the mix worked compared to PBW, and how similar the effectiveness was. And for less than half the price, I'm sold. As for the safety level, never really gave it a second thought, I just treated the new mixture with the same precautions as i would have with PBW. I have always used cleaners in a ventilated area and avoid inhaling the dust and eye/skin contact until diluted with water, when I avoid splashing around the face/eyes. I have had no issues with skin contact after dilution.

 

[phug]

okay so effectiveness appears to be spoken form and as for safety, I think I'm going to say that regular TSP is safe to use in cleaning my equipment, since it's also an FDA approved food additive.

so that being said, the next time I'm at walmart, I'm picking up a 900g carton of trisodium phosphate, and 2.72 Kg tub of oxy for a total of 15.75 tax in.

I'll separate out 900 grams of the oxy for regular laundry type stuff, and that'll give me 33% tsp and 66% oxy

I was about to spend 10+tax on a 1 lb tub of PBW next week.

 

[orangehero]

TSP restrictions are due to environmental safety not your safety.

 

[actionjackson905]

okay so effectiveness appears to be spoken form and as for safety, I think I'm going to say that regular TSP is safe to use in cleaning my equipment, since it's also an FDA approved food additive.

so that being said, the next time I'm at walmart, I'm picking up a 900g carton of trisodium phosphate, and 2.72 Kg tub of oxy for a total of 15.75 tax in.

I'll separate out 900 grams of the oxy for regular laundry type stuff, and that'll give me 33% tsp and 66% oxy

I was about to spend 10+tax on a 1 lb tub of PBW next week.

Looks like a good plan. I went with 70-30% mix with no issues. SWMBO can get her own damn Oxy ;-)

 

[actionjackson905]

tsp restrictions are due to environmental safety not your safety.

👍🍻

 

[phug]

Picked up my hobo pbw. Going to take it for a test run after I bottle my next batch