Homemade Bread Thread

[ba-brewer]

Do we have any people from Wisconsin here?

I want to make some brat buns like we used to get in the 70s and hoping to find a recipe. They were shaped roughly like a small hot dog bun but the texture was not like soft white bread it had more body and a more open crumb maybe a little dry. I think the same dough was used to make what where called hard rolls.

Last time I tried to make them I used a recipe for Semmel Rolls but they were not quite the same or I made them wrong. That recipe had an egg and a little shortening, seem like that would make the crumb softer instead of dry.

Am I remembering brat buns correctly? Any one have any ideas on a recipe?

​

 

[ba-brewer]

Found this video and recipe for Brotchen. Simple ingredients list and looked a little like the brat buns I was thinking about.


Too dark, too chewy and too soft inside, but tasted good and made a good sandwich.


Oh ya, too close also, but that was my fault not the recipe.

edit: next time will try a mix of AP and bread flour instead of 100% bread flour, lower temp and less steam time.

 

[applescrap]

^^yum. Looks great to me. How did you roll and slash those?

 

[ba-brewer]

Nothing wrong with the rolls, just not the texture I was looking to recreate. They would be great for sooping up soup or making a French dip.

Broke down and got a lame the other day. A old fashion razor blade on a fancy stick. Much easier than a oily knife.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074KSVK5B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I followed the direction in the video, squash a 90gm ball of dough into a rectangle then roll the short side pinching along the way. Some I rolled like a play-doh snake to seal the seam, other I just pinched and put seam side down. After a few raises the dough is quite soft and pliable, I think you could form in your hands with a little practice.

 

[dwightr8]

Hot out of the oven! Jalapeño cheddar bread.

 

[Robert65]

Crusty white loaf. Simple things can be most satisfying, especially amid the holiday excess.

 

[Miller4]

Testing the new banneton that I got for Christmas with a simple white loaf.

 

[applescrap]

They turn out such pretty bread, now I want one! How do you use one?

Testing the new banneton that I got for Christmas with a simple white loaf. View attachment 660171

 

[Robert65]

They turn out such pretty bread, now I want one! How do you use one?

You dust it, and the shaped loaf, generously with flour, and put the loaf in seam side up. After proofing, you turn the loaf out, seam down, on your peel. Takes a little practice, but the cane these are made of absorbs enough moisture from the surface if the loaf that they don't stick if all is floured well. I have round and oblong ones (oblong used in my picture just above.)

PS these coiled cane ones are technically called Brotformen, central European style. Bannetons are the French version, linen-lined wicker baskets. The floured linen absorbs moisture too and makes them similarly non sticky.

To find them, and some rabbit holes, check out the Breadtopia website if you're not already familiar with it.

 

[Miller4]

just as Robert65 said, I heavily dusted the basket and then did my final proof seam side up in the basket and covered with a bag. For this loaf I transferred it directly to a preheated enameled cast iron and baked. I use the cast iron often but this was my first try with the basket or “brotformen” good tip

 

[Inkleg]

What they've said. Plus I've found rice flour works great after initial sticking issues with mine. I also trim a piece of parchment and hold it on the bottom of the battenton as I flip it over. Grab the paper and set in down in the screaming hot dutch oven.

 

[Miller4]

Tonight’s loaf.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks so much robert, inkleg and miller. I appreciate the tips. I used to flour and slash, but for a while now I am using oil and gloves for speed and no mess. I love the way the flour looks on these breads.

 

[user 246304]

Miller4, your bread is stunning. Funny, on King Arthur today and added a brotform to my cart. I use bannetons, but do like the cool coil effect of the brotform. Beautiful, your work.

Was off baking for many years, and more or less lost all love for all things cooking, trying to get some mojo back. 2-stage levain boule tonight.

Tastes are good, but disappointed with crumb and spring. A bit stumped, actually.

It's very strange but I had a levain going for years in Chicago (couple above) that got killed here in Madison on our move. Ever since, with many different iterations, I've not been that happy. One thing I used to do was retard and bake anywhere from immediately on pulling from fridge, to an hour later - these got me good spring.

All my photos were lost to photobucket but I did find one on the web, a high hydration boule:

These were typically done with the stretch and fold, and some other things I've forgotten, it seems, because I'm still tinkering. At any rate, good to be baking again and hope to dial in my levains. I'm putting together plans for a brick hearth oven.

 

[Kent88]

So I was again gifted a sourdough starter this holiday season. The loaves are looking a little less impressive than they had before.

An in-law gave me a sourdough starter he's had going for a few years. I hadn't played with a sourdough starter before.
Tonight I finally made a loaf with it. I got instructions from an episode of America's Test Kitchen / Cook's Country you can find on YouTubes. Tastes pretty good.

View attachment 607195 View attachment 607196

This is the second loaf to turn out like this. Any suggestions for how I can get my loaves to look like they did before?

Recipe reference.

 

[ba-brewer]

First thoughts are you over proofed or your starter is not strong enough.

How long did it raise, did it double in size or close to it?

How often do you feed your starter?

Will the starter double in less than 8 hours?

If you starter does not double in 8 hours you need to keep feeding until it can. Leave on the counter and feed twice a day.

When my starter is on the counter and up to snuff I feed it once a day. I only have a small starter of 110gm. I keep 10gm and add 50gm of water and 50gm of flour. It will be double or more in about 8 hours and is ready to make a loaf. After 24hr it is sort of soupy. when not actively baking with it I feed and stash in the fridge.

I use a 1,2,3 recipe for my sour dough. 1 part sour dough starter, 2 parts water and 3 parts flour. I go light on salt at 2% of the flour weight. Use king Arthur AP or their bread flour, I like 1/3 bread flour and 2/3 AP. A 100gm of strong starter can make a loaf 50% bigger without trouble(300gm water, 450gm flour).

I sometime kneed, but normally do a stretch and fold thing every 30min for a couple hours then allow to double. You are on the breads schedule as to when to bake.

 

[Kent88]

The first loaf I made from this starter was proofed for 18 hours in its first rise. That one didn't double in size like the second one (pictured in my previous reply). This one was given a longer rise (didn't want to mess with it while my wife cooked lunch), so it might have over-proofed a little.

I just got this starter from one of my wife's co-workers. I fed it the day after I got it and then I fed it yesterday (roughly a week in between). After I feed it I usually leave it out on the counter for several hours, and then I keep it in the fridge. I usually like to feed it 1:1 water:flour (by weight), but when I got it the starter looked really runny, so I have been giving it more like 1:3.

I don't think the starter exactly doubles in 8 hours, but it certainly is active after a few hours at room temperature.

 

[ba-brewer]

You should not need to change the 1:1 ratio. I believe reducing the water to 1:3 will slow down the growth.

Feeding once a week if it lives in the fridge is OK, but you need to let it go through a couple feeding at room temp to make sure it is strong enough.

If you do 1:1 after 8 hours on the counter there should still be structure to the starter and not soupy/runny. ​

Mine has gone months in the fridge without feeding. Just take a spoonful and let it to grow/feed a few times.

 

[user 246304]

The first loaf I made from this starter was proofed for 18 hours in its first rise. That one didn't double in size like the second one (pictured in my previous reply). This one was given a longer rise (didn't want to mess with it while my wife cooked lunch), so it might have over-proofed a little.

I just got this starter from one of my wife's co-workers. I fed it the day after I got it and then I fed it yesterday (roughly a week in between). After I feed it I usually leave it out on the counter for several hours, and then I keep it in the fridge. I usually like to feed it 1:1 water:flour (by weight), but when I got it the starter looked really runny, so I have been giving it more like 1:3.

I don't think the starter exactly doubles in 8 hours, but it certainly is active after a few hours at room temperature.

FWIW, my starter routine:

I shoot for getting the starter rocking with 3 feedings daily until I can get a 3X-3.5X in 6-8 hours. I do a 100% hydration, and typically go with a small part dark rye for flour.

Way more than I need but I've found I tend to get better results with a certain critical mass to work with.

I ferment at 78F.

150 grams total.

50 grams seed chef, or levain, or starter - all the same thing, the "seed."

50 grams water at temp to give dough temp of 78F

50 grams flour: 27 g King Arthur AP, 13 g Dark Rye.

Mix very well until homogeneous, ferment. At first it will be much longer than 6, 8 or more hours. I watch the starter and look for the dome on top. I don't go by time but by observation. I'll typically allow a very small receding, but not a total caving - streaks on glass, concave center, showing nutrients have been used up and yeasts/LB's are slowing down quite a bit, moving into a likely too acidic environment.

Pain, because it's a 3X daily feeding, but it gives me good results. I usually have 125 ml to start and end up now at 375 ml by 5 1/2 hours. It rocks in a bulk ferment and gives good flavor - not too sour. I prefer a French-style levain to a San Francisco sourdough.

Refresh by pulling 100 grams and adding back in 50 H20 and 50 g of the flour mixture.

If I move to a once a day thing, I'll usually go to a 20% seed levain inoculation, e.g., 20g g seed levain, 40 g water, 40 gram flour mixture. It's also something I do when I've abused the starter by too much cold storage (I find it's out of balance, with or without hooch on top - starting slow like this and gradually building back up has worked for me).

You'll see above I'm coming back in myself so take it with a grain of salt, but by the photos, I'm seeing more blistering - are you pulling these directly from cold retardation and baking? Personally, I like blistering and got my most intense springs from the direct-from-retardation baking. Just a thought if these are on your mind.

I agree with ba-brewer in suspecting your starter sounds like it needs to kick up to a bit more robustness. I'd just work it up till it can double or triple like ba-brewer or I suggest (the tripling I learned from Raymond Calvel, French baking scientist, etc.). My regular pain levain gets a relatively short bulk ferment of 50 minutes then a shape, mold and final proof over 4-6 hours, or until at proper proofing condition. I'd guess this is likely the main issue. Just a guess.

The other thing I'm wondering is your mixing routine. Dough hydration, time, speeds?

For most of my wheat sourdoughs, I usually fold and undermix just a bit (or by a lot, depending on mood and how much I want to play with folds), depending on 2 1/2 hours or so of bulk ferment and regular foldings (depending on the dough strength coming out of the mixer, once, twice, or even three times, for really slack doughs) to develop gluten strength. Folding blows my mind with how well it works to bring a proper dough strength.


The only other thing I'd wonder is your shaping routine. It's possible you might have knocked out some nice gas pockets by too rough of a shaping, but I doubt it. Your first breads look wonderful. This bread looks like it needs to be toasted, then slathered with butter, then disappear.

Just a few thoughts. Hope my memory is correct as I said, I'm coming back and have forgotten a good deal.

 

[Kent88]

That link on the bottom of the reply with the latest bread images goes to a youtube video (which starts with how to make a starter, so I skipped that because I was given a starter). I use the recipe from that, and I tried to stick closely to the procedure they recommend. After the second rise it gets scored and baked, I don't knock much if any air out of it.

In the two loaves I've made since I got this starter, when I use it I have been letting the portion I use come up to room temperature before I start mixing everything up.

Oh, what the heck, here is the youtube video I cited earlier:

 

[user 246304]

Yeah, thanks Kent, I'll check the vid out tomorrow. I'm actually in the middle of a 3-part levain build, and have to get up at 4 (wth, I'm an insomniac. Might as well do something productive, lol), so hitting the hay but look forward to watching the vid. Regardless, your bread looks delicious, just some off-the-cuff thoughts comparing this to your earlier loaves.

 

[ba-brewer]

Did you get your loaf to hold a nice boule shape?

You want it too be nice and tight. If you had trouble forming the boule then maybe your initial ferment was too long.

I have never did a dutch oven loaf, but that recipe seems pretty straight forward and no chance of burning your hand by dropping into a hot pot.

Doing the slow heating inside the pot seems like over proofing could be a issue as the boule might collapse or deflate from a slash.

I think though if you do a few days of feeding to strengthen your starter will give you better results.

I took my starter out last night before bed. It was a bit soupy at noon when I feed it. Looks good so I will make a loaf and let it ferment overnight and bake tomorrow morning.

This is after about 10hr I think, it is almost too late as the top is getting sloppy and starting to collapse but I am going to go for it.

 

[Kent88]

Thanks Gad. It actually tastes really good, too. It definitely isn't a problem with the flavor, just the aesthetics.

ba-brewer, I have felt like the dough it still a bit tacky when I give it a final knead. I guess it holds the shape ok, but it could be better.

I went ahead and put 5oz of starter out and fed it 0.5oz of DME, 1oz of WW Flour, 1oz of whatever flour my wife leaves in that container (probably AP), and water to make a 50/50 mixture. The starter in the fridge looked nice and bubbly (even if it was way too runny for my liking), and the bread it makes tastes right, so I feel pretty good that I've got something worth building up.

I put the rest back in the fridge as a backup, but this is going to stay out for a few days so I can see if it will get active.

In a few days when I make another loaf I'll try a shorter proofing.

 

[ba-brewer]

If you have 5oz of starter you need more flour and water than 1oz each. I think the normal procedure is to keep half your starter and add back 50% flour and 50% water. So either use 2oz of starter or increase flour and water to 2.5oz each.

When the starter is strong you can use less starter, but I am pretty sure you don't want to add less new flour and water than the starter.

 

[Kent88]

Huh? I added 5oz starter, 2.5oz flour, and 2.5oz of water.

I thought that when a starter is fed one should ad enough of a solution of equal parts (by weight) flour and water to the starter to double it.

5oz starter, 5oz flour/water(/DME) paste.

If that is insufficient, I can feed it again later in the morning or afternoon.

 

[ba-brewer]

My apologies, I misread your post and thought you were only adding 1oz of flour and 1oz of water to 5oz of starter for some reason. My mistake sorry.

Yes 50/50 flour/water. Discard half of your starter and replace with new 50/50 flour and water to get back to original weight.

I am not familiar with adding DME to a starter, just flour and water. In my bread I add sugar at like 3 or 4%, the amount of DME you are using seem like a lot.

I just use AP flour in my starter not whole wheat. I did use whole wheat initially to get the culture started, but have not used it since.

 

[Kent88]

I am used to using leftover DME in bread dough. I don't have any science to back it up, but I like to think of it as halfway between a simple sugar and a starch, so I actually use it a lot in place of sugar, but I figured maybe it would help jump start my starter. I'll probably stop adding it to the bulk of my starter, though. I'll keep it for when I am making the final dough or batter. It just seems like a waste at this point.

That ATK/CC video had them using a blend of AP and WW flour during the making of the starter. I figured I'd keep to that, mostly.

 

[ba-brewer]

My understanding is the initial whole wheat is to bring in the yeast and bacteria, once you have captured some then no need for whole wheat.

If the 20% DME in your flour mix is typical that may be why your starter was sort of wet and you needed more flour. Less flour for gluten building seems like it could effect how well the starter would rise too.

 

[user 246304]

Huh? I added 5oz starter, 2.5oz flour, and 2.5oz of water.

I thought that when a starter is fed one should ad enough of a solution of equal parts (by weight) flour and water to the starter to double it.

5oz starter, 5oz flour/water(/DME) paste.

If that is insufficient, I can feed it again later in the morning or afternoon.

You want at least a 1:1, which you have. Keep in mind that's going to tend to give you a sharper tang because

I am used to using leftover DME in bread dough. I don't have any science to back it up, but I like to think of it as halfway between a simple sugar and a starch, so I actually use it a lot in place of sugar, but I figured maybe it would help jump start my starter. I'll probably stop adding it to the bulk of my starter, though. I'll keep it for when I am making the final dough or batter. It just seems like a waste at this point.

That ATK/CC video had them using a blend of AP and WW flour during the making of the starter. I figured I'd keep to that, mostly.

The Calvel I mentioned (he invented the autolyse rest), uses malt in stage 1-2 of a new starter make. That, and a touch of salt, actually (interestingly, throughout). (See 10.1).

Edit: Adding page 1 of Ch. 10 of his famous bible of baking, "Le Gout Du Pain," translated and available in English as "The Taste of Bread." This first page mentions why he uses malt and salt, second column. I've never done it using these, but would like to try doing just what he does.

 

[ba-brewer]

@Gadjobrinus, Is the malt in the recipe DME or ground diastatic malt flour?

If it is ground diastatic malt then it would help break down the flour to feed the yeast/bacteria slowly. The percentage is less than 1%.

I have a 50% average on getting a starter going from scratch. The first one that I still have and a second one that I tried later. The second one started smelling like garbage so I gave up on it.

 

[user 246304]

@Gadjobrinus, Is the malt in the recipe DME or ground diastatic malt flour?

If it is ground diastatic malt then it would help break down the flour to feed the yeast/bacteria slowly. The percentage is less than 1%.

I have a 50% average on getting a starter going from scratch. The first one that I still have and a second one that I tried later. The second one started smelling like garbage so I gave up on it.

Excellent pick up, ba-brewer. Yep, it has to be the diastatic malt flour as he talks about the amylolytic assistance - right column bottom, pg. 89, image above (first page Ch. 10). If I have it right, he's got it very low in stage 1 at .3% (same as salt).

Thanks. I've never worked with it. Is it commonly available?

 

[ba-brewer]

You can get diastatic malt powder at king Arthur flour, but I am sure it is available elsewhere. I think I seen people either here or on the pizza thread using ground base malt.

The final bread in his recipe looks to be fair stiff at 64% hydration. Would be easy to knead and form for sure. The seed is also fairly stiff at 60% hydration.

 

[applescrap]

Made some basic recipe lean dough white bread. Did very little handling of it and that related to air in the bread. I think I like them a little more dark. I pulled them at 195 but at 205 I think that's how far I'm supposed to take them. We discussed that on here a ways back. Made for some really nice sandwiches. It's different than the rolls but nice.

 

[ba-brewer]

First attempt using a proofing basket I got from my daughter. Had to thump and shake to get it out. Think I should of used more flour and less cow bell. Forgot to turn down the heat when I removed the water so the crust is a bit crunchy.

 

[user 246304]

The pain au levain I was building overnight. Much better spring - basically the three things we were discussing with Kent back a page. More robust starter (tripling within 6 hours), watching the proofing, and as the dough was a bit slack coming out, did a fold at 25 minutes (still trying to figure out why the short bulk of 50 min., and long proof of 4-5 hours).

Flavor's great. As a lot of this was overnight, I was pretty spacey. I meant to use light rye in the main dough, not dark rye. It came out a bit grey for my tastes, as I used the dark.

I don't have a crumb shot as this little 2 pounder is eaten already, lol. Building up another starter now. But the flavor was really nice.

I'm out of practice on scoring, as you can see. More to work on !

 

[Kent88]

10oz of sourdough starter, 8 hours after feeding.

Looks a lot more active than it did a few days ago. Going to try making another loaf this weekend.

 

[ba-brewer]

Looks like there is probably still structure to the dough/starter, should make good bread.

 

[ba-brewer]

latest attempt with a proofing Basket. Too much flour but still stuck a little this time. Also maybe a little flour burned while baking. I found some things online that suggest it takes a few uses to get them seasoned. I was using plain wheat flour, will try rice flour next time.

 

[Robert65]

I've never used rice flour, only the flours I use in my breads, but yes, it might take a couple of loaves to "season." If it starts to actually build up a residue of flour that doesn't easily brush off the basket, don't be afraid to wash it off with water and dry it. It should remain, essentially, dry wood.

And nice looking bread. I'd be happy with it if I were you.

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks Robert, much happier with how this one came out of the form for sure.

I would prefer to use just plain flour like what the bread is made from then to have something in the cupboard just as a release agent. Maybe I will give it a few more shoots with plain flour to see how things go.