Homebrewed vs bought Hefeweizen comparison question

[iBimmer]

I brewed a few extract Hefeweizen 5G batches from Midwest supplies, they all came out the identical to each other. I brewed according to instructions every time, followed grain steeping timing/temps, fermentation times/temps, bottling procedures, aging, etc.
Today, I put side by side, a Trader Joe's Josephbrau Hefeweizen and the one I made from MWS extract kit. The one from MWS comes out OK, but it has this bitter-sour-ish flavor. The one I bought from TJ's has this awesome sweet flavor. Body and color look the same.
Does anyone have an idea how to customize that MSW extract kit and bring similar sweetness to my batches?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Try an all-grain kit and mash at 156-158 for a less fermentable wort. This is the #1 reason I won't brew with extract. No control over fermentability of wort. What happens when you want to make a sweeter, maltier ale or a crisp, dry hefeweizen? Also, to get rid off the other off flavors you mentioned, ferment in the mid-high 60's instead of at room temp.

Edit: Hey, welcome to HBT!!

 

[iBimmer]

Thanks for the lightning fast response. I fermented at 65F. My temp control is kinda primitive, I tape the sensor of my temp control unit to the fermenter's bucket wall with duct tape. So, cannot be sure if fermentation temperature was exactly 65.
I have not tried all-grain yet, still collecting equipment and knowledge to make the jump.
I read somewhere that maltodextrin can remedy my problem, even though I'm not a fan of adding anything else in the beer besides malt (extract), grains, hops, yeast and water.
What's your take on this?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Hard to say. What was your OG? Also, what kind of yeast did you use? It sounds like you know what you're doing so I don't want to waste your time pointing out common pitfalls. What's your background in brewing? Also, for many here (myself included) hefeweizen isn't an easy style to do really well.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

What is the yeast in the MWS kit? The most popular/common yeast is WY3068 - the Weihenstephan strain. It's quite tart. If you prefer the sweeter taste (less tart) you might prefer WY3638 which doesn't see the extreme pH drop (sourness) but still gives a nice banana and clove balance.

 

[KB12]

If you want to take a step towards all-grain without fully committing equipment you could consider doing a mini-mash, where you're trying to get a bigger chunk of your sugars from grain and less from the extracts. These are normally done as a brew-in-a-bag (BiaB) setup so the only extra equipment you need is a larger grain bag.

 

[Andre3000]

Agreeing with Jayjay above, my opinion is that brewing an ok hefe is easy, brewing an excellent hefe takes a lot of practice.

While this article focuses on all grain brewing, it is a great resource for brewing Hefeweizens. There is a ton of info in here. I'm sure there's lots you can apply regarding yeast selection, fermentation, water profile, etc. Give it a read:

https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Are you using RO water or removing chlorine from your water somehow(campden tablets)? My first couple extract batches had a flavor I didn't find appealing and looking back I think it was the chlorine, although at the time I was so green I thought maybe it was just the extract. I wouldn't really describe mine as bitter/sour but I had a really hard time describing the flavor at all back then, but it's usually described as mediciny. I do think it was the chlorine off flavor for me though.

 

[RPh_Guy]

^ This. Water matters too.

 

[iBimmer]

JayJay, projected OG and the one I had was 1.051 according to my notes. Yeast is Safale US-05, dry.
VirginiaHops, I have an 5-step filtration under-the-sink house RO system. It supposedly removes chlorine and fluoride.
Andre, thanks, looks like a great article. I guess it applies better for all-grain brewing, doesn't it?

 

[Lefou]

Ingredients matter.
In order to get a good example of a German-style weissbier, your yeast, water, and hops must mirror the German recipes.
The best way to get the results you're looking for is to use noble hops, brew with soft to moderately soft water, and find a liquid yeast alternative with the right attributes.
S0-5 would be a great choice for a wheat beer, but not for the hefeweizen style. Pilsner malt, wheat malt, and a touch of Munich with Hallertau/Tettnanger and WLP-300 would be a great mix. I agree using extract will greatly change your perception of the beer especially if you're using S0-5.

 

[Jtk78]

JayJay, projected OG and the one I had was 1.051 according to my notes. Yeast is Safale US-05, dry.

In my opinion, if you want to try this recipe again, but change it I would start with a new yeast. I used WY3068 in my Hefe with good results. Banana on the nose, with a good balance of banana/clove on the pallet that gave the impression of a sweetness but still finished fairly dry. My OG was 1.050 and FG was 1.010.

I agree brewing a Hefe is easy. Brewing a well done Hefe that nails the style is pretty challenging. I feel the same way about NEIPAs.

Welcome here, and congrats on getting consistent results.

 

[Kharnynb]

us-05 is not a great yeast for hefe, sadly few dry yeasts are.

mangrove jack's m20 for hefe or m21 for belgian wit are about the best you can do for dry wheat beer yeast.

 

[Andre3000]

us-05 is not a great yeast for hefe, sadly few dry yeasts are.

mangrove jack's m20 for hefe or m21 for belgian wit are about the best you can do for dry wheat beer yeast.

I had one made with WB-06 that was pretty decent. Apparently Danstar Munich Classic is equivalent to WY3068 though someone would have to confirm.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

There are numerous reports of Danstar Munich Classic being equivalent to WY3068. It's receiving some quite positive reviews. I'm going to give it a go on my next hef as liquid yeasts are hard to get where I live. I've tried WB06 and, although it made good beers, didn't give the characteristic hefe flavours (it was way too bland).

 

[iBimmer]

I wonder why would they offer it as an option for Hefeweizen since results are not that great. As a newbie in this, I opted for the cheaper and more stable version with dry yeast. I also have Wyeast 3068 liquid which I bought to try. My next batch will be brewed with it for sure.
Thanks for all suggestions.

 

[Yooper]

I wonder why would they offer it as an option for Hefeweizen since results are not that great. As a newbie in this, I opted for the cheaper and more stable version with dry yeast. I also have Wyeast 3068 liquid which I bought to try. My next batch will be brewed with it for sure.
Thanks for all suggestions.

They offer it I guess because newer brewers may be intimidated by liquid yeast (but there is no reason to be).

Also, since beer is 90% water, using distilled or reverse osmosis or another water with low alkalinity and lower mineralization would be really important.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

You basically made a pale wheat ale. 05 is quite generic and versatile (kinda like WLP001). It's a great yeast, but not for a European-esque wheat beer. To get the banana and clove, typical of a German heffy, you need a yeast that throws the right esters and phenolics for that style of beer (those are kinda biproducts of fermentation. yeast poop if you will). You also need to correct mash profile and fermentation temp. But even with extracts, using the right yeast at the right temp will get you much closer to where you want to be.

Also watch for over-hopping on a wheat. It's really easy to step on the clove/banana with hops. Typically, wheats are LOW hopped and use something in the "noble" family like Saaz, Sterling, Hallertauer, Spalt, etc. Rarely is much late/aroma hopping used. The early boil hop bitterness is mostly for balance, while the yeast provides most of the nose.

Keep on brewin' !!!

 

[kbaggen]

Hi there,
to get a good wiezen, you need to use the right yeast (wet=3068 or dry=Danstar Classic munic wheat), and foget about the rest. Just hold 60% wheat in the grist, one early hop addition of 13 IBU, and the right yeast and brew on the cool side (both mash(65´C) and ferment(18´c)), and you should get a long way....but as said the yeast is the key!

See my considerations here regarding (dry)yeast:
http://posebryg.bagge-nielsen.dk/2017/05/02/wheat-yeast-experiance-bavaian-wheat-among-others/

(there is aslo a link to some german/eglish weizen article)

Besides that use some CaraHell malt in the grist to enhance a bit of sweetness!
The WB06 is bad, stay away!

Klaus
posebryg.dk

 

[kbaggen]

http://braumagazin.de/article/stilportrait-weissbier-von-nelken-und-bananen/

Klaus
www.Posebryg.dk

 

[Kharnynb]

I find wb-06 to make boring, not hefe beer, danstar munich is nice for basic wheatbeers, but very low on classic hefe flavours.

 

[iBimmer]

So, the way I get it, Wyeast 3068 is a must for Hefeweizen beers.
Note taken.
Since I have a few more packs of US-05, what would be the best beer style to use that with?
I will buy more 3068 for the rest of my Hefe batches and use that 05 on something else.

 

[NGD]

So, the way I get it, Wyeast 3068 is a must for Hefeweizen beers.
Note taken.
Since I have a few more packs of US-05, what would be the best beer style to use that with?
I will buy more 3068 for the rest of my Hefe batches and use that 05 on something else.

Just used us-05 for a cream ale..turned out great. Pretty much any brew you would want a clean yeast for would be fine.

To gain a little more knowledge on Hefe yeasts, check out this experiment by Hideki Arao https://www.homebrewtalk.com/hefeweizen-yeast-experiment.html

 

[Northern_Brewer]

danstar munich is nice for basic wheatbeers, but very low on classic hefe flavours.

Don't confuse Munich with Munich Classic, they're different yeasts. As you say, the "ordinary" is quite dull, but the Classic is rather better.

 

[Jtk78]

So, the way I get it, Wyeast 3068 is a must for Hefeweizen beers.
Note taken.
Since I have a few more packs of US-05, what would be the best beer style to use that with?
I will buy more 3068 for the rest of my Hefe batches and use that 05 on something else.

There are alternatives to 3068 out there as well. WY3638, WLP300, WLP351, WLP380 (WLP are White Labs yeasts) are some examples. If you're going to buy a yeast for each batch, you could try a couple few out to see which you prefer.

If you read through the yeast manufacturer information as well as do a search on those strains you will see you can affect the flavor profile quite a bit with controlling fermentation temperature. Typically, the warmer you ferment, the more banana you're going to get. It's a different topic, but if you want some ideas on pretty easy ways to control temp let me know.

There are a few ways to harvest the yeast so you don't need to buy a new one for every batch as well. It's a way to save some money once you find a strain you like or will use again. Side note - most people do not harvest dry yeast, although I'm sure it's been done.

The US-05 is a great yeast, just not for a hefe. American IPA, pale ale, amber ale, brown ale, stout (I prefer WY1318 for stouts), the list goes on. US-05 is a very versatile yeast. Every homebrewer should have at least one packet of it in their fridge at all times just in case something goes wrong with the intended yeast. Yes, i have dropped an open vial of a white labs yeast at 11pm on a Saturday night brew, local brew shop closed Sunday and US-05 saved my AS5.

 

[Kharnynb]

I would always keep a few different dry yeast on stock anyway.

us-05
danstar nottingham
w34/70
mangrove jack's m21
s-04

 

[Yooper]

So, the way I get it, Wyeast 3068 is a must for Hefeweizen beers.
Note taken.
Since I have a few more packs of US-05, what would be the best beer style to use that with?
I will buy more 3068 for the rest of my Hefe batches and use that 05 on something else.

I don't use S05 very often (it just isn't one of my favorites) but lots of people like it and it's used for American pale ales, American IPAs, and most other American styles.

Unfortunately, dry yeast doesn't come in as many varieties as liquid yeast, and my favorite yeast strains all come from liquid yeast manufacturer's. It's not that expensive, because I save the yeast from each batch in mason jars. I buy yeast only about twice per year.

 

[Jag75]

I don't use S05 very often (it just isn't one of my favorites) but lots of people like it and it's used for American pale ales, American IPAs, and most other American styles.



Unfortunately, dry yeast doesn't come in as many varieties as liquid yeast, and my favorite yeast strains all come from liquid yeast manufacturer's. It's not that expensive, because I save the yeast from each batch in mason jars. I buy yeast only about twice per year.

How do you save the yeast ? Is it whatever falls to the bottom you scoop up ?

 

[Jtk78]

How do you save the yeast ? Is it whatever falls to the bottom you scoop up ?

I know you asked @Yooper, but I over make a starter and save some for future starters/batches.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I save yeast slurry without washing (I've also overbuilt starters as per Jtk78, but normally I'm too lazy). I mostly try to brew a new batch with a particular batch on the same day I'm transferring to serving keg (or bottling) so the yeast is used fresh. The older it gets in the fridge, the more likely it is to mutate. I use straight yeast slurry if it's up to a couple of weeks old, but make a starter if it's older than that. The $$$ value is far more noticeable in Australia - a liquid yeast costs $12 to $15 (plus postage most of the time for me as my LHBS only stocks a few basic ones that I rarely use). I make sure each one is used in at least 4 batches to get reasonable value.