Homebrew can save you lots of money

[Hex]

My Mom just made two cherry pies from cherries I picked yesterday from her two Bing cherry trees. We opened one just now, fresh out of the oven. Mmmmm the house sure smells good, think I'll have a slice....

 

[bottlebomber]

You two belong here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f45/what-has-happened-men-248467/

Lol! I hate that thread. After reading about 80 posts or so I wanted to slam my pecker in the toilet seat

 

[remilard]

I look at it this way.

You tell a friend how much a batch of beer costs you. "Wow!!!" he says, "Only $5/case? Then it's no big deal if I drink as much of your beer as I want, right? I'll reimburse you if necessary."

"You're already drinking my beer."

"Yeah, but I didn't realize how cheap it was. I'm coming over every night from now on to get hammered!"

"Oh come on, that's a bit overboard..."

"It's just $5 a case, right? So what's the big deal? I'll give you $5 a night if you want... it's cheaper than a drink at the bar."

"Well, yeah, it's $5 in ingredients, but..."

And that "but" is the real cost of making homebrew.

Well done. If people don't understand that, it's time to give up.

 

[cimirie]

Time to chime in.

The big disconnect is, as some have pointed out, the point of view. Bobby is coming from a purely academic point of view from the science/art of economics. In economics, everything has a cost. It has to. So in that respect, Bobby is 100% right: to get a true economic measure of this debate, you must include labor.

Where he and I (and many that have posted) diverge is that the vast majority of people in this world don't care one bit about true economic costs: they care about accounting costs. When one asks the question "how much does X cost" what they are really asking is "how many physical pennies will I have to remove from my pocket in order to receive that widget?" Thus when 95% of the population asks what costs more, they are truly inquiring about the physical pennies of one vs the other.

Most people primarily process in accounting costs. So to respond with an economics response to an accounting question isn't really doing justice to the inquiry.

Neither side is wrong with what they're saying. But one has a more practical application. (that's why there are more accountants than economists)

So Bobby, to directly answer your question to the group; I do think it's appropriate to ignore the labor when your neighbor asks about the costs associated with homebrewing. Mainly because he's most likely asking about dollars and cents.

 

[cimirie]

Well done. If people don't understand that, it's time to give up.

There is no "but" in my response. Under no circumstance would I ever consent to exchange goods or currency for homebrew as it is illegal and I would never break the law (disclaimer done). However, hypothetically if a friend of mine was to offer to pay the material costs and nothing but, I would absolutely do it. I made it to drink. I would normally share with anybody. Somebody offers to pay for what I would normally give damn right I'll accept. I'll brew more.

The exception to the given example, however is the "coming over and getting wasted every night.". I would have a huge problem with that. But it has nothing to do with $. Getting blitzed every night at my house would make my wife very angry. When she angry, she no give up da booty. No booty makes ME very angry. Plus aside from that, it's just rude to take and take like that. Has nothing to do with time or money I've invested. It's just common manners.

 

[Airborneguy]

I was going to go back and quote everything then respond, but it's pointless. Crimie pretty well summed it up anyway.

Bobby, your rule view is totally understandable. I do, contrary to what some seem to think here, have the brain power to fully agree with it, but disagree at the same time. Kant had some great philosophical points to make, but his whole theory was stuck with one problem: it required the main question to be answered with an 'always'. I do not agree with your point because I believe for it to be true, it has to be true always, in every cost-value situation. See my point?

If I'm going to factor time into the cost of something, then I have to do that always for the value to be consistent, otherwise, I have to quantify different times: is my night time worth more? Morning? Leisure? Work?

I used the running in circles example not to belittle you, but to emphasize a point. Unless one is paid for moving in a set pattern (can't use breathing because you can do that while brewing), then doing a different activity during leisure time does not have a quantifiable cost because one does not lose anying while performing it.

I guess this is a true agree to disagree moment, which was always my intention. The subtle implication that a certain side of this argument is less informed than the other was unnecesary.

 

[Airborneguy]

Well done. If people don't understand that, it's time to give up.

I'll go further than cirimie and say that the example was flawed. To quantify a savings, the beer has to be compared to something. I started out by saying that I believe when compared to a similar beer, home brew is cheaper. Ie, I can produce a RIS for less coin than an RIS would cost me at retail value. Emjays example only speaks to actual costs involved and then has the producer being offered the actual cost. It does not answer to the value that the beer has for emjay relative to what he would spend commercially. What if his friend offered less than cost? He now losses money, but relative to nothing because the reason for the value his friend offered is not being compared to any similarly priced item but rather the cost expended to produce his version.

 

[emjay]

I'll go further than cirimie and say that the example was flawed. To quantify a savings, the beer has to be compared to something. I started out by saying that I believe when compared to a similar beer, home brew is cheaper. Ie, I can produce a RIS for less coin than an RIS would cost me at retail value. Emjays example only speaks to actual costs involved and then has the producer being offered the actual cost. It does not answer to the value that the beer has for emjay relative to what he would spend commercially. What if his friend offered less than cost? He now losses money, but relative to nothing because the reason for the value his friend offered is not being compared to any similarly priced item but rather the cost expended to produce his version.

My example wasn't meant to be a comparison, it was simply demonstrating that we value the cost of beer as being more than simply the cost of ingredients. If you acknowledge that, and the cost is still cheaper than an equivalent brew, then fine... you're saving money. I'm not even attempting to argue against that. My example was a bit underdeveloped and assumed people would make the logical connections for themselves, but I didn't want to write a post as long as this one

As for trying to pick apart the technicalities... gnore the fact that it's illegal. And to say that you're sharing it for free already anyways, I made a point to mention in that conversation that the person is already sharing (I think we all do). I'm talking about going beyond simply "sharing"... what if the friend was drinking 95 or even 100 percent of every batch, and could do so without being drunk and obnoxious.
Basically... what if you put in the labor, only to not be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor? Sure, I enjoy brewing too, a lot in fact, but I wouldn't be brewing if I wasn't also able to enjoy the beer I spent a long time to make, even if I was compensated for the ingredients, and I'm sure it's the same for nearly everyone. And yet, why? If the act of brewing ALONE was enjoyable enough to justify the labor being put into it, as people are suggesting, it wouldn't matter whether or not we EVER eventually get to drink what we made - the simple act of brewing would be enough reward in itself. And yet I can guarantee that very few people would be here if for some reason we never actually got to drink what we produce.

I'm aware it's an extreme example, but the point remains. Unless you can honestly say that even if, for some reason, you were no longer able to drink your own beer, that you'd still be brewing regularly, then you are indeed placing additional value in your labor, with the compensation being the beer you end up with.

And, how much value you place in your time spent brewing is actually easy to figure out if you can be honest with yourself... in such a scenario, what kind of benefits would you need to receive.- monetary or otherwise - in order to continue brewing anyways?

 

[remilard]

I think this whole I brew a batch for $5 crap is just another example of people needing to measure penis size by proxy online because we can't just whip em out.

Join a real club, everyone knows who the brewers are, and nobody is going to walk up to a good brewer and brag about their efficiency or how they only buy one package of yeast a year.

 

[Sweetchuck]

Probably covered a couple times here, but I'll echo it.

No way can the common homebrewer approach a cost/benefit point by making their own beer when compared to commercial breweries.

You can do the math by simply adding the cost of the ingredients but that's only a fraction of the true cost - AND you may only get close in this respect.

You also have to consider:

Utilities (probably use 10 times the water to make a batch of beer, gas/electric)

Overhead (you use other equipment, right? Stove, fridge, chillers, thermometers - all that has a depreciable cost)

Labor (you could be working and making money, not doing so is an inherent cost to whatever else you're doing when you're not making money)

Add everything else - shipping fees, gas and car for when you drive back and forth to the supply store, your house (unless you brew in a parking lot)...

Just looking at the list of true costs, I'd say it might be closer to 5 or 10 times cheaper to just buy the stuff.

 

[Airborneguy]

I think this whole I brew a batch for $5 crap is just another example of people needing to measure penis size by proxy online because we can't just whip em out.

Join a real club, everyone knows who the brewers are, and nobody is going to walk up to a good brewer and brag about their efficiency or how they only buy one package of yeast a year.

I'm bowing out, because this was never meant to become personal. Even if I did 100% save money, and you 100% didn't, I don't think any of my posts or anyone else's implied superiority.

I know that I would spend far more money on beer if I didn't brew my own, and that's enough, when coupled with my reasoning, to justify the statement that I am saving money (in my opinion, for my situation, with no contempt for anyone else's viewpoint).

Even my wife believes it, and in the end, that is all that matters anyway.

 

[cimirie]

You also have to consider:

Utilities (probably use 10 times the water to make a batch of beer, gas/electric)

Water bill $26 month. If your math is right and I use 10 times the water on brew day, I spend about $4 on water. I use no electricity and based on a $16 propane tank that I get 5 batches from. TOTAL this category- $7


[quote="Sweetchuck]Overhead (you use other equipment, right? Stove, fridge, chillers, thermometers - all that has a depreciable cost)[/quote]

Only thing here that applies is my dedicated thermometer. Cost me $5 2 years ago. How much depreciation is that assigned? $.10?


[quote="Sweetchuck]Labor (you could be working and making money, not doing so is an inherent cost to whatever else you're doing when you're not making money)[/quote]

False pretense. This is a dollars and sense argument. ie when comparing prices, it's an accounting discussion - not an economic one. In accounting, not everything has a value. Theoretical labor value doesn't apply.

[quote="Sweetchuck]Add everything else - shipping fees, gas and car for when you drive back and forth to the supply store, your house (unless you brew in a parking lot)...[/quote]

My camry gets 26 mpg. Homebrew store is 10 miles away and typically I get 2 batches worth every trip. So, 90% of one gallon roundtrip at 3.75 gallon. Call it 3.70 per trip or 1.85 per batch. REALLY? A house cost? Don't think so. I'd have my house if I never brewed again

[quote="Sweetchuck]ust looking at the list of true costs, I'd say it might be closer to 5 or 10 times cheaper to just buy the stuff.[/quote]

So my total for these extras is 8.95 per batch (more than I would have thought, by the way: great excercise!). My typical batch materials run me roughly $23. With these extras, my total comes to $32. 8 6-packs of craft will always run me at least $60. So, in the worst case (no bulk grains or re-using yeast) I'm saving at least $28 on the same volume of craft brew. Hardly an increase.

Even if you want to add the cost of equipment in, I'd still say you're way ahead in terms of straight up dollars and sense.

 

[Mongrel]

Just looking at the list of true costs, I'd say it might be closer to 5 or 10 times cheaper to just buy the stuff.

Nah, because you completely left out what I'd be doing with that time if I wasn't brewing. 6-7 hours out of the house drinking $4 pints adds up fast. Then there's the damned stripper who expects at least a dollar a song...

Anything that keeps me home during my free time is probably saving me money.

 

[Sweetchuck]

Water bill $26 month. If your math is right and I use 10 times the water on brew day, I spend about $4 on water. I use no electricity and based on a $16 propane tank that I get 5 batches from. TOTAL this category- $7

Add the cost of the tank, the pot you're boiling in, the spoons you're stirring with, the scales you're measuring with, the hydrometer, grinder, bottles, kegs, tap system - it all adds up.

False pretense. This is a dollars and sense argument. ie when comparing prices, it's an accounting discussion - not an economic one. In accounting, not everything has a value. Theoretical labor value doesn't apply.

You have no understanding of fundamental economics then. Can't help you much in this aspect until you develop one.

My camry gets 26 mpg. Homebrew store is 10 miles away and typically I get 2 batches worth every trip. So, 90% of one gallon roundtrip at 3.75 gallon. Call it 3.70 per trip or 1.85 per batch. REALLY? A house cost? Don't think so. I'd have my house if I never brewed again

You're Camry costs what, maybe $25k? I hope you insure that vehicle, add that cost also and it's what - over $5k/year? What's that break down per batch?

Yeah, of course you have to pro-rate that between your personal use and brewing use, but it's a cost.

So my total for these extras is 8.95 per batch (more than I would have thought, by the way: great excercise!). My typical batch materials run me roughly $23. With these extras, my total comes to $32. 8 6-packs of craft will always run me at least $60. So, in the worst case (no bulk grains or re-using yeast) I'm saving at least $28 on the same volume of craft brew. Hardly an increase.

Even if you want to add the cost of equipment in, I'd still say you're way ahead in terms of straight up dollars and sense.

Honestly, if you understood true economic overhead allocation you might understand. I don't think you do. I skimmed through that list of costs. If I bothered to take the time to really break them down - in true cost fashion - like the total cost of your house and your car don't apply, but part of them do - it might make more sense to you.

Or maybe it wouldn't.

Fact is, commercial breweries track and understand these costs, which is why that - if you buy a case of say Sam Adams for $25, you're paying for ALL of that cost - all of the overhead, all of the labor (you can discount your own labor as much as you want but it's still a cost), all of the pots, tuns, ingredients, buildings, shipping, supply chain, insurance... it's all in there or they wouldn't be able to calculate a true profit.

Doing it yourself is no different, only the true costs are hidden in the respect that you don't notice them.

 

[remilard]

False pretense. This is a dollars and sense argument. ie when comparing prices, it's an accounting discussion - not an economic one. In accounting, not everything has a value. Theoretical labor value doesn't apply.

There is a reason most accountants spend their lives in rooms without windows.

You have 6 hours of leisure time and want a cheap source of beer. Do you:

1. Brew your own 5 gallon keg of beer for $15?
2. Go mow a few lawns, buy a 5 gallon keg of beer, and have money left over? Many brewpubs will sell you a 1/6 barrel for about $40. Most homebrewers I know that are heavily cost conscious aren't approaching brewpub quality on a consistent basis, but let's ignore that for now and assume we are closer to brewpub quality than malt liquor quality.

You may say number 1 because you enjoy making the beer. But in this case it is still more expensive than the commercial beer, it is just that you are willing to pay the higher price in exchange for the utility the beer provides and the utility the leisure provides (vs beer alone) and that's fine. That is how hobbies work.

There are a lot of poor people in the US who drink, yet somehow homebrewing is overwhelmingly a middle class hobby. If it saves money, why is it too expensive for some people?

Think about this in terms of food. It is well known that fast food and convenience food are more common in poor areas. You can make a naive argument that the organic arugula you grew in your garden is cheaper than a Big Mac, but you can only have that organic arugula salad because you can afford the time to grow and eat it (or shop and eat it, whatever). The poor people are working overtime, multiple jobs, riding the bus for hours, aren't hiring out childcare and house cleaning, etc. Leisure time is very, very expensive (though social welfare distorts this a bit).

Observing the real world will tell you what is truly cheap (fast food and bottom shelf liquor) and what is truly expensive (home cooked food and home made beer).

 

[remilard]

Oh and I think these days the federal government considers the cost of driving a mile about 50 cents. This is obviously an hour and excludes the value of that time. If you enjoy driving and don't consider the time to have a cost, god bless you.

 

[bottlebomber]

You have no understanding of fundamental economics then. Can't help you much in this aspect until you develop one.

You're Camry costs what, maybe $25k? I hope you insure that vehicle, add that cost also and it's what - over $5k/year? What's that break down per batch?

You kinda made yourself look at little foolish here... I was following your side of the discussion but this is a little rediculous. What if you went out for a drink and had 3 and got pulled over and got a DUI? What if that happened? Would the 10 grand in fines suddenly boost your price per pint to $50? I mean if you were at home drinking homebrew it wouldn't have happened... could you just assume this will eventually happen and if you stay home to drink just take this figure off the top of your brewing overhead? How much more convoluted can this discussion get?

 

[Zamial]

It is funny to read threads like this because folks try to incorporate the "million dollar apple tree"...If you do not know of these stories, it has something to do with a US Military vehicle hitting and destroying an apple tree, in a foreign country. Then the owner claim ridiculous claims of how that apple tree was the family income and they were going to plant an orchard from that tree and sell the apples and then the wood so the estimate to repay the damages is $1,000,000...

The one thing that I think a LOT of people do not grasp is you can make this hobby as expensive or as cheap as you want. If you choose to "blow your cash" on the latest greatest thing, please do not come around telling me how poor you are and how you are not saving money.

The bottom line is this for me...I brew decent beer, that I like and can get me plowed if I so choose and this is 100% legal to do so. I feel "not so bad" the next day because my beer is closer to a living organism than a chemical. I can go buy some decent beer but almost all of it is closer to a chemical than anything living and will leave me "hung over". I get to do something that not only makes myself happy but most of my friends and family too.

I also can cause "desired side effects" by controlling the ingredients I use. Like adding local honey to the wife's batches so her allergies are not so bad...or making a caffeinated breakfast stout so I can get the benefit of my mourning coffee with my stout when I am camping or on special occasions.

and this folks is the "mother load" of brain twisters...I am trying to reuse all of my "spent" ingredients in some way and I should be all set to be doing these things before winter...Like turning the grains into a spent grain flour to use for baking or molding some into some suet for bird feeders. Reusing the hops for: pillows, sheet sprays, massage oils, soaps and candles. For yeast: completing my "yeast bank" and using any unloved yeast as a "yeast nutrient" by drying it and adding it to my boils in small quantities. So how does one begin to factor in the "brewing as a lifestyle" for proof that I am saving money doing all this? is it possible?

I will admit that I will probably never be "incredibly wealthy" or become so by brewing beer but I can say that I can look around and see many others much worse off than I am...

 

[remilard]

I will admit that I will probably never be "incredibly wealthy" or become so by brewing beer but I can say that I can look around and see many others much worse off than I am...

A penny saved is a penny earned, so you should be able to become incredibly wealthy by brewing beer. Just brew more of it.

 

[cimirie]

.

 

[cimirie]

Oh and I think these days the federal government considers the cost of driving a mile about 50 cents. This is obviously an hour and excludes the value of that time. If you enjoy driving and don't consider the time to have a cost, god bless you.

Econ 101 textbook response. Nobody in the real world cares. You gotta stop looking at it from an academic perspective! Do I have to actually spend real money to pay for gas and tolls to get to my LHBS? Yes. That's a valid "cost" when figuring out batch cost because I have to spend physical currency on it.

Do I have to spend physical currency to pay myself to drive? No. Since it doesn't take a single penny out of my pocket, it is irrelevant to the real world discussion of cost.

And to sweetchuck's point about Sam Adams needing to build these items into the cost of their beer... Sure they do. And there's a real good reason for it: they actually have to pay real money for it. They bought their breweries to brew in. They pay their drivers to drive.

I don't have that problem. My guess is, neither do you. So building it into your cost is faulty logic. If an accountant managed his books like that, it would possibly land him in jail.

 

[remilard]

If an accountant managed his books like that, it would possibly land him in jail.

You have some interesting ideas about accounting. Have you ever read financial statements? They are full of intangible items. Did Sam Adams put all of their goodwill in a bucket and sell it? Where did that come from?

If think you should quit your job and make every single product you use. Think about how irrational it is that you are refusing to save all of that money.

 

[cimirie]

You have some interesting ideas about accounting. Have you ever read financial statements? They are full of intangible items. Did Sam Adams put all of their goodwill in a bucket and sell it? Where did that come from?

I can say what I do because I actually do look at financial statements. I'm a consultant - it's my job.

Yup, there are intangibles listed. Simply being listed on the financial statement doesn't mean its being used to determine cost of goods or cost of sale. One thing you'll never find in the profit/loss equation is time. In accounting (and tax code), time has zero value, except for that which has been physically paid for it. Paid, as in real dollars. Time has no inherent value unless somebody has been reimbursed for said time. So you can say "you can discount your labor cost as much as you want, but it's still a cost," because it sounds good, but that's just not true. Unless you are accepting tangible and quantifiable reimbursement for your time, it plays no role in determining the cost of a product.

And as we've determined, none of us are. Therefore, the time we've spent brewing has no actual value. And if we WERE doing it professionally but didn't pay ourselves, we still couldn't account for it in the coat of the product.

If think you should quit your job and make every single product you use. Think about how irrational it is that you are refusing to save all of that money.

It's not irrational at all. It's a simple cash flow equation. I bring in salary, a far larger number than I would save by making my own products.

 

[Synovia]

The actual cost of your labor to brew a batch of beer for yourself is approximately the amount of money that you would accept to NOT do your very next favorite leisure activity when you already had plans to do it. Sure it's hypothetical but it's better than ignoring it as if that 6 hours had no monetary value.

No, its not. Generally I do other leisure activities while I brew.


6 House on a saturday while I'm also mowing the lawn, reading a book, and fishing off the dock out back most certainly have no monetary value.

 

[bottlebomber]

I've been enjoying reading this thread... your both clearly intelligent people, fully equipped to represent your separate viewpoints. And that's why you will never resolve this disagreement. Only difference is, Syv is debating for free, while Bobby has potentially spent hundreds of dollars on this discussion

 

[WhiskeyR]

As a newb, I look at this as a hobby. I'm not saving money, but I am definitely diverting money I'd otherwise spend buying beer to making it myself and I find that rewarding.

I have this pipe dream that now that I'm done blowing money on my kegerator I could maybe save a few bucks here or there.

 

[bottlebomber]

I wish I could say id save money at some point, however I've only just gathered enough (quality) equipment to brew, and I've already got my eye on fancy 3 tierd setups, conical fermentors, and everything else that costs big bucks. Although my favorite craftbrew is almost 7 dollars for a 22oz bottle so if I can eventually learn how to clone that I will save buckets in the long run, if I don't figure in 30 dollars an hour that my time is theoretically worth into my overhead.

 

[remilard]

I can say what I do because I actually do look at financial statements. I'm a consultant - it's my job.

Yup, there are intangibles listed. Simply being listed on the financial statement doesn't mean its being used to determine cost of goods or cost of sale. One thing you'll never find in the profit/loss equation is time. In accounting (and tax code), time has zero value, except for that which has been physically paid for it. Paid, as in real dollars. Time has no inherent value unless somebody has been reimbursed for said time. So you can say "you can discount your labor cost as much as you want, but it's still a cost," because it sounds good, but that's just not true. Unless you are accepting tangible and quantifiable reimbursement for your time, it plays no role in determining the cost of a product.

And as we've determined, none of us are. Therefore, the time we've spent brewing has no actual value. And if we WERE doing it professionally but didn't pay ourselves, we still couldn't account for it in the coat of the product.



It's not irrational at all. It's a simple cash flow equation. I bring in salary, a far larger number than I would save by making my own products.

Hey, a consultant, me too. What I do is a charge for an hour of my time and then people pay by boss and then my boss effectively pays me a percentage of that. I assume you have a similar setup.

Since I am a good consultant, I can work as much as I want. Every time I brew 6 hours I could have billed 6 hours and made hundreds of dollars. So am I saving money, or spending a lot of money on leisure? I think the latter.

How about my coworkers who golf? Are they saving money if they play public courses rather than join a club? What if they bought some land and built a course for a million dollars. Then they play free. I mean, well, they have to hire 5 guys to maintain the course but if you add up the real costs like tees and balls and lacoste shirts and gps things, they are really only spend a few grand a year. I think if I play golf I can save even more money than I do brewing beer. I am glad we had this talk.

 

[remilard]

BTW, the fact that you work exactly as much as you choose to and then stop and do leisure activities and say your time has zero cost, but if I ask you to work one hour less then that has a cost...

Boggles the mind.

 

[TheMan]

And that's why you will never resolve this disagreement. Only difference is, Syv is debating for free, while Bobby has potentially spent hundreds of dollars on this discussion

Lol.

I agree, after hearing bobby explain it I can see why some consider time a cost. I don't agree with that view though. In my mind leisure time is leisure time (doing things you enjoy), you do what you want with it. Whether you volunteer at a homeless shelter, brew beer or go to the bar...it's doing something you enjoy. I don't associate a cost with that time.