Hill Farmstead Saison

[hornydevil]

Question is really, is it just isoalphas or alpha, myrcene, humulene etc. that get extracted at lower temps throughout the cooling process?

It's "hop related compounds" in general. You can achieve inhibition of (some) bacterial growth without boiling your hops/isomerizing alpha acids.

 

[hornydevil]

for 99% of my beers, I ONLY hop at flameout... no issues so far.
are you just dumping pellets in loose?

You could always switch to whole leaf. That would help.

 

[More Betterness]

C2C and TYB 184 took my saison down to 1.001 when I mashed the same temp as last time which ended up at 1.005. Bumped the ABV north of 7 but tastes fantastic! Give me a few months of bottle conditioning and I'm ready to send out a few bottles if some of you are still interested in a swap!

 

[hornydevil]

C2C and TYB 184 took my saison down to 1.001 when I mashed the same temp as last time which ended up at 1.005. Bumped the ABV north of 7 but tastes fantastic! Give me a few months of bottle conditioning and I'm ready to send out a few bottles if some of you are still interested in a swap!

FWIW, you could have bumped your FG up a little if you wanted to by adding lactose, as I think both of those Brett strains are lactose negative. Not that you'd want to do that, but it's just a heads-up for future reference.

How many volumes of CO2?

 

[More Betterness]

FWIW, you could have bumped your FG up a little if you wanted to by adding lactose, as I think both of those Brett strains are lactose negative. Not that you'd want to do that, but it's just a heads-up for future reference.

How many volumes of CO2?

I don't actually mind how dry it is! Tart and dry with the tropical fruit character that 184 throws is right in my wheelhouse! Also the perceived body is much fuller than the FG would lead one to believe.

Haven't primed yet as I was planning on bottling Wednesday. Transferred it into a flushed keg and will bottle with a beer gun. Probably aiming for 3 volumes or so but haven't fully decided.

 

[hornydevil]

I don't actually mind how dry it is! Tart and dry with the tropical fruit character that 184 throws is right in my wheelhouse! Also the perceived body is much fuller than the FG would lead one to believe.

Nice.

Haven't primed yet as I was planning on bottling Wednesday. Transferred it into a flushed keg and will bottle with a beer gun. Probably aiming for 3 volumes or so but haven't fully decided.

Thick 750s? If so, might I be so bold as to recommend 3.5- 4 with that low of an FG?

 

[More Betterness]

Nice.



Thick 750s? If so, might I be so bold as to recommend 3.5- 4 with that low of an FG?

Yessir, champagne style 750s. I was definitely kicking around going higher, maybe I'll aim closer to 3.5.

 

[TripleSixHoppia]

3.5 vols is GOAT for sour beer. I'm a champagne whore though.

 

[More Betterness]

After a few weeks of being lazy and letting it sit in the keg, finally bottled this sucker off to condition. Tastes great flat and warm, so I'm excited to see what happens when the Brett referments under pressure!

 

[into the white]

Thinking of brewing a few gallons of honey saison soon and copitching 3726 and TYB184. Potentially dumb question as I've never tried a mixed fermentation before: would pitching a small amount of sour dregs in secondary (Cantillon Classic Geuze or RdG) be likely to result in a mostly sour beer, or would keeping the pitch very small enable getting subtle characteristics of that funk and tartness without overwhelming the primary yeast flavors?

 

[dimensionx]

Thinking of brewing a few gallons of honey saison soon and copitching 3726 and TYB184. Potentially dumb question as I've never tried a mixed fermentation before: would pitching a small amount of sour dregs in secondary (Cantillon Classic Geuze or RdG) be likely to result in a mostly sour beer, or would keeping the pitch very small enable getting subtle characteristics of that funk and tartness without overwhelming the primary yeast flavors?

Maybe? If the beer is highly attenuated and/or there is not much left for the Brett and bacteria to eat, then the acidity and funk should be less pronounced. If you want to keep it really mellow, you could pitch dregs in secondary and avoid wheat. Generally speaking, a bigger pitch of Brett will result in a less acidic, less funky beer. Building up a starter from your dregs or a whole pitch of Brett in secondary might be the way to go if you are looking for a "restrained" acidity.

 

[drgarage1]

Maybe? If the beer is highly attenuated and/or there is not much left for the Brett and bacteria to eat, then the acidity and funk should be less pronounced. If you want to keep it really mellow, you could pitch dregs in secondary and avoid wheat. Generally speaking, a bigger pitch of Brett will result in a less acidic, less funky beer. Building up a starter from your dregs or a whole pitch of Brett in secondary might be the way to go if you are looking for a "restrained" acidity.

You can also hop pretty heavily to inhibit the bacteria.

 

[Vogt52]

Maybe? If the beer is highly attenuated and/or there is not much left for the Brett and bacteria to eat, then the acidity and funk should be less pronounced. If you want to keep it really mellow, you could pitch dregs in secondary and avoid wheat. Generally speaking, a bigger pitch of Brett will result in a less acidic, less funky beer. Building up a starter from your dregs or a whole pitch of Brett in secondary might be the way to go if you are looking for a "restrained" acidity.

So a larger pitch of Brett decreases funk? I'm not one who loves straight barnyard funk in my beer.

 

[quirkzoo1]

So a larger pitch of Brett decreases funk? I'm not one who loves straight barnyard funk in my beer.

Yes, large pitch of Brett in primary and it will be pretty close to a sacc fermentation. Most of what we think of as "bretty" flavors are Brett metabolizing byproducts if fermentation (i.e. Esters from saison yeast getting turned into funk).

 

[Vogt52]

Yes, large pitch of Brett in primary and it will be pretty close to a sacc fermentation. Most of what we think of as "bretty" flavors are Brett metabolizing byproducts if fermentation (i.e. Esters from saison yeast getting turned into funk).

So to achieve something with such balance as HF, what all do you pitch and when?

 

[Thorpe]

So to achieve something with such balance as HF, what all do you pitch and when?

Not really a recipe for cloning HF, but here's what I do for creating a balanced, nuanced saison (well, at least according to me):

Pitch mostly saison yeast alongside a bit of Brett that tends to be fruitier rather than funky but in a small amount that isn't going to take over the character. Would not use Lacto. Would instead use something with more depth for a slow, mild acid build over time. Use something like dregs from a bottle of JP or 3F.

Finally -- and maybe even more important than any of the above -- watch your water profile and pH.

 

[More Betterness]

Not really a recipe for cloning HF, but here's what I do for creating a balanced, nuanced saison (well, at least according to me):

Pitch mostly saison yeast alongside a bit of Brett that tends to be fruitier rather than funky but in a small amount that isn't going to take over the character. Would not use Lacto. Would instead use something with more depth for a slow, mild acid build over time. Use something like dregs from a bottle of JP or 3F.

Finally -- and maybe even more important than any of the above -- watch your water profile and pH.

^This.

Starter of Omega Yeast C2C and TYB 184 copitched with a tick of lacto produced very HF like results for me. TYB 184 is straight musty tropical fruit. 5.2 mash pH and softer water in saisons FTW!

 

[Thorpe]

^This.

Starter of Omega Yeast C2C and TYB 184 copitched with a tick of lacto produced very HF like results for me. TYB 184 is straight musty tropical fruit. 5.2 mash pH and softer water in saisons FTW!

For these I like chloride higher than sulfate but nothing too high. Chloride around 100ppm, sulfate at 70 or so ppm, and sodium up to 40-50ppm.

 

[More Betterness]

So HF inspired saison I've mentioned above (Omega C2C, TYB 184, Lacto brevis) that has had no off flavors to speak of as of two weeks ago after 6 months of aging and ~3 additional months bottle conditioning has now developed a relatively offputting aroma. Would lean towards butyric as it is slightly "bile-y" but not totally sure and didn't think butyric came to the party this late. Solely present in the aroma, I get none of it in the taste. Could just be something getting weird under pressure in the bottle and may need to just let it work itself out, but it's really pissing me off! Any thoughts?

 

[More Betterness]

Not really a recipe for cloning HF, but here's what I do for creating a balanced, nuanced saison (well, at least according to me):

Pitch mostly saison yeast alongside a bit of Brett that tends to be fruitier rather than funky but in a small amount that isn't going to take over the character. Would not use Lacto. Would instead use something with more depth for a slow, mild acid build over time. Use something like dregs from a bottle of JP or 3F.

Finally -- and maybe even more important than any of the above -- watch your water profile and pH.

What pH you usually aim for in these?

 

[Thorpe]

What pH you usually aim for in these?

5.2-5.3 in the mash.

 

[meatst1ck]

Bringing a slightly older thread back to life, but I got a lot of info/inspiration from this thread, so figured I'd contribute to the discussion. Just brewed up my first go at a mixed-ferm saison today. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

(BIAB)
Batch Size: 2.5 gallons
OG: 1.050
ABV: 5.19%
IBU: 13.84
SRM: 5.48

Grains
3 lb - American - Pilsner (65.5%)
0.8 lb - American - White Wheat (17.5%)
0.32 lb - Canadian - Honey Malt (7%)
0.46 lb - Flaked Oats (10%)

Hops
60 min - 0.15 oz - East Kent Goldings
15 min - 0.20 oz - Saaz
10 min - 0.10 oz - East Kent Goldings
10 min - 0.12 oz - Motueka
5 min - 0.12 oz - Motueka

Yeast: TYB Saison/Brett Blend II, and 3F dregs

Water Profile: mash pH - 5.25, Ca - 53, Mg - 5, Na -31, SO4 - 79, Cl - 99

Infusion mashed at 154F for 90 min, with 90 min boil

Planning on slowly ramping up temp in primary from 68F to ~78F over the next 3-4 weeks, then racking onto oak cubes in secondary for a few months.

 

[wuntrikpony]

3F dregs

In primary?

 

[Thorpe]

Bringing a slightly older thread back to life, but I got a lot of info/inspiration from this thread, so figured I'd contribute to the discussion. Just brewed up my first go at a mixed-ferm saison today. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

(BIAB)
Batch Size: 2.5 gallons
OG: 1.050
ABV: 5.19%
IBU: 13.84
SRM: 5.48

Grains
3 lb - American - Pilsner (65.5%)
0.8 lb - American - White Wheat (17.5%)
0.32 lb - Canadian - Honey Malt (7%)
0.46 lb - Flaked Oats (10%)

Hops
60 min - 0.15 oz - East Kent Goldings
15 min - 0.20 oz - Saaz
10 min - 0.10 oz - East Kent Goldings
10 min - 0.12 oz - Motueka
5 min - 0.12 oz - Motueka

Yeast: TYB Saison/Brett Blend II, and 3F dregs

Water Profile: mash pH - 5.25, Ca - 53, Mg - 5, Na -31, SO4 - 79, Cl - 99

Infusion mashed at 154F for 90 min, with 90 min boil

Planning on slowly ramping up temp in primary from 68F to ~78F over the next 3-4 weeks, then racking onto oak cubes in secondary for a few months.

Looks great. Water profile looks spot on. I also love honey malt in saisons. I bet that will turn out quite well.

 

[meatst1ck]

In primary?

Yup! Although I personally have zero experience so far, I based my decision off of the mad fermentationist's suggestions. Pitching dregs in primary with your regular sacc/Brett strains supposedly allows for the dregs character to be imparted more quickly. If pitched in secondary, I think you'd have to pitch much more/build up a starter and let it condition longer

 

[meatst1ck]

Looks great. Water profile looks spot on. I also love honey malt in saisons. I bet that will turn out quite well.

Thanks! Yea I actually took a lot of inspiration from your posts/blog as well, so no surprise you think it looks great haha

 

[Thorpe]

Yup! Although I personally have zero experience so far, I based my decision off of the mad fermentationist's suggestions. Pitching dregs in primary with your regular sacc/Brett strains supposedly allows for the dregs character to be imparted more quickly. If pitched in secondary, I think you'd have to pitch much more/build up a starter and let it condition longer

Agree that primary is the way to go. Let it get started early and grow a bit more so it’s part of your overall culture.

 

[Vogt52]

Ziggy and I brewed one a while ago that is drinking really well right now. I thought it would be a brett bomb, but it's really balanced. Definitely need to brew again!

 

[Mikeroesoft1]

Agree that primary is the way to go. Let it get started early and grow a bit more so it’s part of your overall culture.

Do you build up the dregs before pitching into primary or pitch them right from the bottle?

 

[Thorpe]

Do you build up the dregs before pitching into primary or pitch them right from the bottle?

Right from the bottle and let the culture build up over time. The more that ends up going in, the more diverse and interesting the results, IMO. Each batch turns out differently, but that’s perfect for blending and keeps things interesting.