High FG fail, the internet lied to me!

[Thumpgrinder]

So, I have an imperial stout that looks pretty tasty. The problem lies in that the high ABV didn’t allow it to ferment all the way out. I pitched two White Labs San Diego yeast, as I do not have a starter setup yet. Recipe here: https://goo.gl/3QnGt5

So I was reading, and foolishly thought it sounded like a good idea. Pitch champagne yeast to finish the ferment. WRONG! Or at least it didn’t work for me. The FG didn’t drop, and the aroma has totally changed. Smells boozy and not as beer like. Tastes ok, will see after it carbs up in the keg. The aroma before this was stellar. Hopefully I didn’t ruin a good beer.

Anyone else have good results with this technique? Or am I in left field?

 

[flars]

I think you have what is needed to build starters. All you need is a small fermentor. Instead of producing drinkable beer you will be producing yeast. Gallon jar, jug, or small bucket. I've used a large Tupperware storage container. Search for the "Shaken Not Stirred" method of propagating yeast.

 

[LLBeanJ]

If the FG didn't change, then the additional yeast did nothing to your beer. It will settle out and it will be as if you never pitched it.

 

[Thumpgrinder]

When I popped the lid to transfer to keg, it really smelled like a different beer. Almost wine like. It originally smelled like a bad ass stout. So that was kinda disappointing. Hopefully once I add gelatin and get it carbed up, it returns to its former state. Hoping whatever yeast is left in the beer drops. I'm reading on the shaking technique now, and I do have a one gallon fermenter. Might have to take that plunge.

Non-related: I've been reading Palmer's book, and am wondering if my mash temp / grist ratio should change. I usually do 1.25/qt ratio and mash 149-152. I find I am malty a lot on my beers, even on IPAs. Friends can't tell, but I can with the whole OCD thing, I gotta have it perfect. I have the feeling this has something to do with the lack of complete fermenting, with the shortcomings of no starter still on the agenda to remedy. Love this hobby though, always learn something each batch.

 

[ESBrewer]

Forget about pitching multiple yeasts, make a suitable starter, check your mash temp (didn't notice it in the recipe) , cut the amount of specialty grains and increase mash time. I don't think the abv (<<10% ?) is your problem with this yeast, it is the high amount of nonfermentables from specialty grains and possibly improper mash conditions and/or the low pitching rate.

 

[madscientist451]

What was the gravity before/after you pitched the champagne yeast?

 

[RM-MN]

When I popped the lid to transfer to keg, it really smelled like a different beer. Almost wine like. It originally smelled like a bad ass stout. So that was kinda disappointing. Hopefully once I add gelatin and get it carbed up, it returns to its former state. Hoping whatever yeast is left in the beer drops. I'm reading on the shaking technique now, and I do have a one gallon fermenter. Might have to take that plunge.

Non-related: I've been reading Palmer's book, and am wondering if my mash temp / grist ratio should change. I usually do 1.25/qt ratio and mash 149-152. I find I am malty a lot on my beers, even on IPAs. Friends can't tell, but I can with the whole OCD thing, I gotta have it perfect. I have the feeling this has something to do with the lack of complete fermenting, with the shortcomings of no starter still on the agenda to remedy. Love this hobby though, always learn something each batch.

There are two issues in these sentences that are really not related. Mash thickness can be adjusted without any problem. The 1.25/qt is a compromise that is thin enough to stir but leaves you with plenty of sparge to be added. You could easily raise that to 1.5lb/qt or even higher but then you will need less sparge. It's a trade off. The more water you have to sparge with the higher efficiency that can be achieved.

Malty beers come from 4 things. Recipe, mash temperature, yeast, and conversion. Recipes can add a lot of unfermentable sugars and that is what you get with a stout (often, not always). That is under the brewers control completely. Higher mash temperatures lead to a less fermentable wort which give you a more malty beer. This is mostly under your control. Yeast have an expected attenuation percentage. You can choose a highly attenuative yeast to get a drier beer but once you pitch the yeast, you no longer have control and the yeast do what they want. You can encourage them with proper temperature control but that's the limit. Imcomplete conversion can leave you with starches in the beer. This one is more rare because usually those starches are locked up in the grain that is not crushed fine enough. To get this you might need to start heating the wort before conversion is completed and conversion happens fast.

 

[LLBeanJ]

How far off was the FG? Measured with a hydrometer?

 

[glugglug]

I would ditch the gelatin. Not because of your gravity, but it’s a stout. Does it need to be clear? I’m a whirfloc guy, but on porters and stouts, I always leave it out. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

When I popped the lid to transfer to keg, it really smelled like a different beer. Almost wine like. It originally smelled like a bad ass stout. So that was kinda disappointing. Hopefully once I add gelatin and get it carbed up, it returns to its former state. Hoping whatever yeast is left in the beer drops. I'm reading on the shaking technique now, and I do have a one gallon fermenter. Might have to take that plunge.

Non-related: I've been reading Palmer's book, and am wondering if my mash temp / grist ratio should change. I usually do 1.25/qt ratio and mash 149-152. I find I am malty a lot on my beers, even on IPAs. Friends can't tell, but I can with the whole OCD thing, I gotta have it perfect. I have the feeling this has something to do with the lack of complete fermenting, with the shortcomings of no starter still on the agenda to remedy. Love this hobby though, always learn something each batch.

I can't really help on the champagne yeast question. I've never used it.

Regarding the malty beers, the vast majority of my experience is with IPA's. If they're coming out malt forward, there are a number of things to consider (ordered from most basic to more advanced).

First, the obvious: what are you adding for hops and when? I brew NEIPAs and 12-14 oz for a 5.5 gal batch is typical for those. Are you doing mostly early-mid boil additions? If so, try using more hops, but later. The utilization will drop (less bittering/oz of hops) and you can add more to get the same IBU's. The additional hops and less time to boil off the flavor/aroma will help. Also, are you adding a flameout or whirlpool addition. Finallly, how much/when for dry hopping.

Using too much crystal can lead to a sweeter more malty tasting beer. Many people want zero crystal or only a very small amount. I used to use it, but dropped it from my IPAs. In general, keep your grain bills simple for a pale ale or IPA.

Water: if you're brewing all grain, the minerals in the water can make a pretty significant difference in the flavor. I brew mine with RO (reverse osmosis) water and add gypsum and calcium chloride to get a water profile that helps the hops shine. There's a boatload of info on these boards. Also, with water, managing pH has value. For a typical NEIPA for me, I have to add a couple ozs of acidulated malt to the bill to bring the pH down to a better level. I highly suggest Bru'n Water to calculate the water additions. I still don't have a pH meter and my beers turn out great. I have borrowed one from time to time and the measurements were right where Bru'n Water predicted. Frankly, I blame that app for me not having a meter. I still plan to pick one up so that I can brew some kettle sours for my son, but other than that, I feel zero need to get one.

Good luck!

 

[Comfort_Zone]

How far off from 1.020 were you? That's not a bad finishing gravity for a big stout like that.

 

[Thumpgrinder]

What was the gravity before/after you pitched the champagne yeast?

QG was 1.095, FG was 1.031 before and after the champagne yeast.

 

[Thumpgrinder]

How far off was the FG? Measured with a hydrometer?

Expected FG was 1.020, I only got 1.031. I do use a hydrometer.

 

[Thumpgrinder]

I would ditch the gelatin. Not because of your gravity, but it’s a stout. Does it need to be clear? I’m a whirfloc guy, but on porters and stouts, I always leave it out. Just my 2 cents.

I figured maybe the gelatin might drop out some of that unfermentable stuff. I use Whirlfloc on each batch. The two of them on clear beers work magic!

 

[Thumpgrinder]

Thank you all for your input! I ended up trying it just now from the keg, and the aroma has mellowed from that champagne smell I had racking last night. The taste is pretty dang good. Black as black gets, and nice lacing / head. Time should only make it better.

 

[madscientist451]

QG was 1.095, FG was 1.031 before and after the champagne yeast.

Your ABV is about 8.4%. The fact that the gravity didn't change shows that the fermentable sugars were consumed, so the yeast did its job.
The OP said that the high gravity was the problem. I'm thinking it was the grain bill and mash temp (what was it?) combination.
Like someone else said, if you want to attempt a re-brew, reduce the specialty malts to get lower gravity. Some crystal/specialty malts will make a wort with only 50% fermentable sugar. sometimes less than that.

 

[thedon986]

Thank you all for your input! I ended up trying it just now from the keg, and the aroma has mellowed from that champagne smell I had racking last night. The taste is pretty dang good. Black as black gets, and nice lacing / head. Time should only make it better.

How much time did you give the champagne yeast to work? I brewed a quad that ended up at 10% and it took more than a month to carb with champagne yeast added at bottling.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Your ABV is about 8.4%. The fact that the gravity didn't change shows that the fermentable sugars were consumed, so the yeast did its job.
The OP said that the high gravity was the problem. I'm thinking it was the grain bill and mash temp (what was it?) combination.
Like someone else said, if you want to attempt a re-brew, reduce the specialty malts to get lower gravity. Some crystal/specialty malts will make a wort with only 50% fermentable sugar. sometimes less than that.

Yes, and he can also sub in some simple sugar for the base malt and that will result in a lower FG.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Champagne yeast isn't really the best for finishing up a beer. It lacks the ability to metabolize maltotriose. In the future, you're better off using a more alcohol tolerant Belgian strain like one of the rochefort isolates. The thermonuclear option is 3711, TYB Dry Belgian, or WLP099.

 

[Thumpgrinder]

How much time did you give the champagne yeast to work? I brewed a quad that ended up at 10% and it took more than a month to carb with champagne yeast added at bottling.

It has been 6 weeks since the champagne yeast addition.

 

[Thumpgrinder]

Champagne yeast isn't really the best for finishing up a beer. It lacks the ability to metabolize maltotriose. In the future, you're better off using a more alcohol tolerant Belgian strain like one of the rochefort isolates. The thermonuclear option is 3711, TYB Dry Belgian, or WLP099.

Thanks! I will def try this as I am going to brew this again.

 

[Thumpgrinder]

This is my exact recipe and notes from my brew book. I will scale this up to 5.5 gallons next go around.

Recipe from: Herr Braumeister / Gold medal in 2017 El Dorado County Fair. http://eldoradocountyfair.org/pdfs/EDCF2017HomemadeBeerCompetitions-ResultsByAward.pdf
Method: All Grain
Style: Imperial Stout
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 6.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.074 (recipe based estimate)
Recipe Based Efficiency: 70%
Actual Efficiency: 78.42% 27.7pts

Recipe Original Gravity: 1.096
Recipe Final Gravity: 1.020
ABV (standard): 10.06%
IBU (tinseth): 54.98
SRM (daniels): 40

Fermentables
13 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 66.7%
2 lb Flaked Oats 33 2.2 10.3%
1 lb American - Chocolate 29 350 5.1%
1 lb United Kingdom - Black Patent 27 525 5.1%
1 lb American - Roasted Barley 33 300 5.1%
1 lb American - Caramel / Crystal 15L 35 15 5.1%
0.5 lb German - Carapils 35 1.3 2.6%
19.5 lb Total

Hops
4 oz Willamette Pellet 4.2 Boil 90 min 54.98

Mash Guidelines
Mash 152 F 6.0 Gal @ 60 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.25 qt/lb
Sparge 170 F 3.5 Gal

Other Ingredients
4 oz Cacao nibs Boil 0 min.
Whirlfloc Boil 15 min.

Yeast
White Labs - San Diego Super Yeast WLP090
Attenuation (avg):
79.5%
Flocculation:
Med-High
Optimum Temp:
65 - 68 °F
Starter:
No
Actual Fermentation Temp: 68 F

Target Water Profile: London (Porter, dark ales)
Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 HCO3-
100 5 35 60 50 265
4 grams gypsum
4 grams calcium chloride

Measured
Pre-Boil: 1.070
OG: 1.095
FG: 1.031
ABV: 8.1%

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Actually, with an OG like that you might be well served by some Nottingham.

 

[Thumpgrinder]

Actually, with an OG like that you might be well served by some Nottingham.

I've tried Nottingham on some lighter beers, I ended up preferring S-05 on those. Thoughts on S-05 on a big beer like this?

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Any of the Chico isolates would be pretty decent. San Diego Super is still a great yeast, but if it doesn't attenuate properly just pitch a yeast that's better at chomping on the leftovers.

 

[MaxStout]

What was your actual mash temp? Your recipe calls for 152, but I'm wondering if it was higher (i.e., your thermometer might be off). With OG 1.095 and FG 1.031, that's only about 67% attenuation. It should be something like 75% or better with that strain.

 

[Thumpgrinder]

What was your actual mash temp? Your recipe calls for 152, but I'm wondering if it was higher (i.e., your thermometer might be off). With OG 1.095 and FG 1.031, that's only about 67% attenuation. It should be something like 75% or better with that strain.

I use a digital instant temp probe and hit 152 pretty easy. I have had instances where I've had temp problems, but I generally don't. Worst case it reads 151.7 or similar, but my 10 gal cooler mash run holds temps well.