Help with yeast/Lacto pitching

[mzukovsky]

My first attempt at brewing a sour and with all the research I’ve done it appears to me that many techniques can work. I have some 1056 I’d like to use and some 5335. My initial plan was to mash in at 154, let the Sacc. eat away until it was done, transfer to secondary on top of raspberries and then pitch the 5335. Does this sound reasonable?

 

[bigdawg86]

Yes... I personally wouldn't kettle sour with 5335 though. It didn't work well for that application, but pitching post fermentation sounds great. I did a kettle sour saison on raspberries that turned out great. Raspberries have a little bit of a bitter bite to them which is slightly present in the beer, but overall it's a thirst quencher!

 

[Kent88]

WY5335. WY1056.

I'm pretty new to all this sour stuff. So you would pitch 5335 after 1056 had a chance to eat up all the malt sugars and before it had a chance to work on all the raspberries? That seems like it should work.

Don't see any specific mention of kettle souring in the original post, but I'll say that I've tried kettle souring a small batch of Berliner Weisse and after a few months it tasted fantastic. I don't know why I haven't made one since. That is just my personal experience doing a small, one-batch experiment, though.

Not sure if this will help at all, but I just made a lambic-ish kind of beer and when I was deciding how I'd go about inoculating I watched this a couple times. Something to think about.

 

[RPh_Guy]

How sour do you want it?

 

[mzukovsky]

I’m not a fan of the wet hay/barn sours... I enjoy tart and varying levels of such. I’m not opposed to aging for many years and seeing how it changes, this is in fact my goal with eventual blending. If it begins very sour that’s ok, if it’s just slightly tart, that’s ok too.

 

[RPh_Guy]

In that case your process sounds reasonable to me
5335 isn't that good at souring, that's why I asked. You will get some acidity from the raspberries.

You won't need to age it. Brett +/- Pedio are what take more time.

 

[Metalchef1]

I have to definitely recommend omega yeast. Do a kettle sour.
They have a lacto blend that sours at room temperature. In less than 48 hours you can get that ph down to 3 with no issue.

 

[mzukovsky]

To be honest, I’ve always been an IPA/Stout brewer... without a little more research I’m not sure how to “kettle sour”. To be honest, I’m kind of looking forward to the waiting months/years to test the beer and have it a place I enjoy it. Almost seems like an art form to me. Is Brett a better choice for this or a combo of lacto and another?

 

[bigdawg86]

To be honest, I’ve always been an IPA/Stout brewer... without a little more research I’m not sure how to “kettle sour”. To be honest, I’m kind of looking forward to the waiting months/years to test the beer and have it a place I enjoy it. Almost seems like an art form to me. Is Brett a better choice for this or a combo of lacto and another?

Kettle souring is incredibly easy. Mash as usual. Once wort is in kettle bring to boil (only 1-2 minutes to pasturize). Cool or let cool. Add lactic acid for target pH 4.5. Once at temp (80-90°) pitch lacto. Check pH in 24 hours. If not low enough, give it more time. If at desired pH then boil as usual with whatever hops and additions you have. The hardest part about kettle sours is the timing. I like to do mash and all that on Thursday or Friday. That way it's Saturday or Sunday and you can start boil whenever pH is at desired range.

 

[Metalchef1]

If I'm not mistaken... All beer is sour whether or not you can perceive it while drinking as the grains have a low ph. The ideal ph range for sour beer is 3.1 to 3.7. Regular non sour beers are between 3.7 and 4.1.

Brettanomyces is not necessary for souring as it does not really sour... It brings the funk but not sourness.

That being said it can be great in combination with lacto or even for an all Brett fermentation.

Like bigdawg86 said....
Mash, strain (recurculate and sparge and all that)..
Boil to sterilize. Cool. Add lacto and cover and seal your kettle (I like going a bit nuts with plastic wrap (not necessarily but get yourself a state sanitation license one of these days and you'll go overboard too)).
Then when it's sour... Boil again and finish the brew as normal.

The great part about kettle souring is that you kill the bacteria (and your brew kettle doesn't need to be clean either was as it's where you constantly boil) and don't have to worry about microbes hanging around in a fermenter or siphon hose or anything else like that.

 

[Metalchef1]

If I'm not mistaken... All beer is sour whether or not you can perceive it while drinking as the grains have a low ph. The ideal ph range for sour beer is 3.1 to 3.7. Regular non sour beers are between 3.7 and 4.1.

Brettanomyces is not necessary for souring as it does not really sour... It brings the funk but not sourness.

That being said it can be great in combination with lacto or even for an all Brett fermentation.

Like bigdawg86 said....
Mash, strain (recurculate and sparge and all that)..
Boil to sterilize. Cool. Add lacto and cover and seal your kettle (I like going a bit nuts with plastic wrap (not necessarily but get yourself a state sanitation license one of these days and you'll go overboard too)).
Then when it's sour... Boil again and finish the brew as normal.

The great part about kettle souring is that you kill the bacteria (and your brew kettle doesn't need to be clean either was as it's where you constantly boil) and don't have to worry about microbes hanging around in a fermenter or siphon hose or anything else like that.

Not necessarily = not necessary
And there should be no was after either.

I despise autocorrect and apologized for not proofing my post.

 

[mzukovsky]

Thanks everyone for the help! If I want to stick with the plan of fermenting with Sacc and using Lacto to sour, is a better variety available than the 5335? I guess that question is for both a kettle sour and the method I initially discussed.

 

[Metalchef1]

Lacto can not tolerate hops at all. That's why kettle sour is the method. The acids in the hops prevent lacto from multiplying. You kettle with lacto, finish the brew normally after

 

[Metalchef1]

And I've used 5335 unil I discovered omega yeast and I'll never use 5335 again.

 

[Metalchef1]

https://omegayeast.com/yeast/bacterial-cultures/lactobacillus-blend

 

[RPh_Guy]

While kettle souring is a good method and has certain advantages, it is NOT the only method of fast souring.
The Berliner Weisse I'm drinking is delicious and in fact hasn't been boiled.

If I want to stick with the plan of fermenting with Sacc and using Lacto to sour, is a better variety available than the 5335? I guess that question is for both a kettle sour and the method I initially discussed.

Any source or blend containing Lactobacillus plantarum is awesome for souring.
OYL-605, TYB Lacto Blend, Sour Weapon L, ECY32, GoodBelly liquid probiotic, Swansons probiotic, Renewlife Ultimate Flora probiotic, etc.
You can pitch Lacto before, at the same time, or after you pitch yeast.
Earlier Lacto pitch, higher cell count, and higher temperature will all help make it more sour.
L. plantarum works best above 70°F.
Do not use any hops before it is sour. You can dry hop if you want afterwards.

Cheers

 

[Metalchef1]

While kettle souring is a good method and has certain advantages, it is NOT the only method of fast souring.
The Berliner Weisse I'm drinking is delicious and in fact hasn't been boiled.


Any source or blend containing Lactobacillus plantarum is awesome for souring.
OYL-605, TYB Lacto Blend, Sour Weapon L, ECY32, GoodBelly liquid probiotic, Swansons probiotic, Renewlife Ultimate Flora probiotic, etc.
You can pitch Lacto before, at the same time, or after you pitch yeast.
Earlier Lacto pitch, higher cell count, and higher temperature will all help make it more sour.
L. plantarum works best above 70°F.
Do not use any hops before it is sour. You can dry hop if you want afterwards.

Cheers

Definitely not the only method. Just seems to be the easiest. I just wanted to stress not adding hops before the lacto.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Kettle souring is not easier than just pitching Lacto with the yeast into zero hopped wort

Pitching with the fruit in this case is perfectly fine too. 5335 isn't the best choice though.

 

[Metalchef1]

That's fair.. I just always go way overboard with sanitation and sterilization. Was a chef for almost 20 years and it has made me hyper paranoid about everything.

 

[mzukovsky]

Follow up on this beer. Gravity was at 1.010 about a week ago and I added five pounds of raspberries and the 5335. Some airlock activity occurred and when I checked gravity yesterday it was at 1.008. The stuff tasted like straight fruit juice. No noted acidity at all, and unfortunately, I do not own a PH meter. After some thought I decided to turn this into an aging project and pitched some Wyeast 5151.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You need Pediococci if you want it to become sour.

 

[Metalchef1]

You need Pediococci if you want it to become sour.

Can you please expand on this? Both produce lactic acid.. Pedio just tends to also offer other funk notes.
I use just lacto when I sour.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Lactobacillus produces lactic acid and minor flavor contribution otherwise. I think it's safe to say your Lacto probably won't make any more acid at this point. We've all said how poor 5335 is.

Brettanomyces produces "funk" (fruity, barnyard, etc). It will produce acetic acid with enough oxygen exposure, not really what you want. It does not produce lactic acid (in any significant quantity). So, it doesn't sour beer unless you want it tasting like vinegar.

Pediococcus produces lactic acid slowly. It works well over long-term because it is resilient and adaptable (much more so than Lacto). Pedio isn't generally considered to add flavor besides acidity, when used in conjunction with Brett (diacetyl gets eaten).
There's no drawback to adding Pedio along with the Brett.

 

[radwizard]

How many ibus do you have at this point? I would suggest getting some Brevis or Pedio involved if you want some sourness.

 

[Metalchef1]

Sorry. I missed that you were advising on his specific batch... I thought you meant in general...

 

[mzukovsky]

The beer is currently 0 IBU because of the intent of souring with Lacto.

 

[mzukovsky]

If I consider adding Pedio, I have access to Bootleg Biology Sour Weapon P, but, have heard it may produce Pediocin which will inhibit growth of other LAB... does anyone know if it would effect the Brett I have already pitched?

 

[RPh_Guy]

It'll be fine. If it killed Brett they would tell us.

 

[radwizard]

The beer is currently 0 IBU because of the intent of souring with Lacto.

You can use anything the sour then. Sour Weapon P would be a great choice, you could even head to the supermarket and throw some Goodbelly in there.

 

[mzukovsky]

Thanks everyone for the answers! I’ll report back in a few months!