Help with starter preparation and yeast viability at large scale brewery

[CaptainCookie]

I everyone, so far I've been working only on 5gal carboys, but all the sudden a friend of mine just got a job on a large scale brewery, so he's taking me with him as well, as a helping hand. The brewery works with 1080gal conical fermenters, so they´re looking for someone who can manage yeast starters and viability. I've never worked on so large scale, so I hope you guys can help me with some questions about:

1. How are the yeast starters are usually prepared for this kind of volume?
2. For a given volume, how much starter is needed?
3. For this kind of volume, what percent of viability is needed? how much in yeast's cells is that?
4. How do you determinate yeast viability for the starter? please determination by hand, no calculators, so I'll be able to do it by myself on any occasion

Please mention any equipment and information needed for the calculations, so I can take it into account. Thanks for your time guys, hope you can help me

 

[flars]

These threads will give you a good start on understanding large brewery yeast handling.
http://discussions.probrewer.com/sh...ation-and-Brewery-propegation-of-yeast-(SOPs)
http://discussions.probrewer.com/sh...ansfer-on-top-or-to-prop-in-a-separate-vessel

Should be interesting walking into a new situation like that from the home brew level.

 

[day_trippr]

Thanks for the links, especially the first. Very illuminating, especially if that's industry practice as alluded...

Cheers!

 

[CaptainCookie]

These threads will give you a good start on understanding large brewery yeast handling.
http://discussions.probrewer.com/sh...ation-and-Brewery-propegation-of-yeast-(SOPs)
http://discussions.probrewer.com/sh...ansfer-on-top-or-to-prop-in-a-separate-vessel

Should be interesting walking into a new situation like that from the home brew level.

Dude thanks, that post teach me a lot about practices on an industrial scale, but I have still a question remaining

• What's the recommend pitching rate for a high scale industrial volume?

I've read this study titled "The effect of pitching rate on fermentation, maturation and flavour compounds of beer produced on an industrial scale", link: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jib.242/full

Where for a 1030hL fermenter tank (that's 103 000L, right) they pitch with 5, 7 and 9 million cells/mL as you can see in the attached image, is these normal pitching rates for this kind of volume?

This means that in 103 000L there is, let's say, 9million cells/mL? of there adding a wort or slurry with 9millions cells/mL, which dissolved in 103 000L is gonna end with a lower concentration of cells? Hope you can help

 

[flars]

Dude thanks, that post teach me a lot about practices on an industrial scale, but I have still a question remaining

• What's the recommend pitching rate for a high scale industrial volume?

I've read this study titled "The effect of pitching rate on fermentation, maturation and flavour compounds of beer produced on an industrial scale", link: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jib.242/full

Where for a 1030hL fermenter tank (that's 103 000L, right) they pitch with 5, 7 and 9 million cells/mL as you can see in the attached image, is these normal pitching rates for this kind of volume?

This means that in 103 000L there is, let's say, 9million cells/mL? of there adding a wort or slurry with 9millions cells/mL, which dissolved in 103 000L is gonna end with a lower concentration of cells? Hope you can help

Definitely can't answer this question. Beyond the scope of my home brewing. The major yeast manufacturers sites do have this information for the individual yeasts they produce. Some sites better than others. Fermentis info on their yeasts seems fairly generic. Lallemand seems better.

A question of this nature may get a better answer from experienced brewers comparing the recommendations to their actual pitching rates at Probrewer.com.

Some pro brewers at homebrewersassociation.org also.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Pitch rate is related to OG in Plato in combination with style.

You’ll most likely order a 2-5 bbl pitch and grow that up on site for the first batch. Most likely you’d make a smaller batch and grow it up to full size pitch rates. After that you’ll just pump it from fermentor to fermentor for 5-10 batches before you grow another batch up. It may be a system where you pitch 1/2 of a fermentor of wort with a smaller pitch and then rack the other half the next day after the yeast goes through the growth phase.

You may see a Carlsberg flask for propagation, or you may see a four vessel propagation system. You might just add 35 gallons of wort and your 2-5 bbl pitch to the fermentor the day before and then pitch wort In too the next day, kinda like making a big starter. Some breweries don’t even attempt to grow up from plates and just order a properly sized pitch directly. It all depends on the brewery, level of sophistication and resources.

It could be a situation where the brewery maintains a yeast vault on plates and grows them up to a certain size pitch then turns that starter over to the Brewer to grow it up to the final pitch rates.

You will most likely see something like this in the fridge.

Most smaller breweries will only use a few different types of yeast or perhaps only one. It really depends on the head brewers objectives and the types of beers brewed.


I’m pretty sure they will train you on their preferred methods once you get up and running. I’d be very surprised if your thrown to the wolves on day one. Way to much at stake for them to hope you can figure it out on your own.


If you haven’t read it yet you should purchase the yeast book from the brewers association. It will help you on several levels.


Good luck!

 

[CaptainCookie]

Yeah, just as you said @Dcpcooks that's ways I've read all along on different pages, they just escalate cultures, growth them up for two to three days and done, but the pitching ratios still bugs me, I've read also that is dependent of the gravity of the wort, like in this research about HGB, pitching up to 105 million cells/mL (see attach image).

For a fair simple calculation, this could be the way to go??
Let's assume that I need a 5000L fermenter for an at 9 million cells/mL, and I count with a 350L propagator:

9 million cells/mL x 5000 000mL = C x 350 000mL
C = 128.6 million cells/mL

Meaning that I need my 350L propagator with 128.6 million cells/mL, but for obtaining this concentration in the propagator, this one has to be pitched and grown beforehand

Let's say that in order to reach that concentration, the propagator need to be pitch with 2 million cells/mL, from let's say, 4L subculture:

2 million cells/mL x 350 000mL = C x 4 000mL
C = 175 million cells/mL

And so on and on, am I right?