Help with making large starter

[jhembro13]

Going to brew a Dark Lord Clone Kit (Extract w/ steeping grains). OG will be around 1.120-1.124. I made starters before for beers that have OG of 1.05-1.07 but never made a big starter. Imperial Yeast A-18 Joystick will be used. I only have a 2 liter starter flask. Should I make a 2L starter wort stronger (~1.050 to 1.060) according to Yeast calculator? Or do step up starter? If you suggest step up starter, how does that process work?

 

[IslandLizard]

Good question!
Use a yeast calculator, like BrewUnited's or Yeast Calc, easy to calculate step starters, or starters made in other ways.

Looks like you can do it in one step if your yeast is fairly fresh, say less than 1 or 2 months old.

Pitch the whole pack of 200 billion cells to make 2 liters of 1.040 starter wort. Since your flask volume is limited, include your yeast slurry volume (weigh the pack) in the starter wort calculation. I.E., you can probably use 1.8 liters of 1.044 wort and add the 200 ml yeast slurry (or how much is actually in there) from the pack. That will result in 2 liters at 1.040. Higher gravities for starters are not recommended, but if you need the extra cells, go for it. I doubt a 1.050 starter won't be as good as a 1.040 or 1.037 one at the end of the day.

That said, I've made step starters for larger pitches by piecemealing from smaller starter vessels. Like using two 2 liter flasks. Either at the same time or one after the other. Cold crash in a separate vessel, like a gallon or half gallon jug, or my favorite, 1/2 gallon pickle jars, as you only want to pitch the slurry not the beer on top.

I get the best and fastest growth by oxygenating my starters for 2-4 minutes at 1/16 l/min. They get very foamy, and I let them sit like that for 4-6 hours before stirring/shaking, as I think the agitation knocks the O2 out of solution.

 

[jhembro13]

Good question!
Use a yeast calculator, like BrewUnited's or Yeast Calc, easy to calculate step starters, or starters made in other ways.

Looks like you can do it in one step if your yeast is fairly fresh, say less than 1 or 2 months old.

Pitch the whole pack of 200 billion cells to make 2 liters of 1.040 starter wort. Since your flask volume is limited, include your yeast slurry volume (weigh the pack) in the starter wort calculation. I.E., you can probably use 1.8 liters of 1.044 wort and add the 200 ml yeast slurry (or how much is actually in there) from the pack. That will result in 2 liters at 1.040. Higher gravities for starters are not recommended, but if you need the extra cells, go for it. I doubt a 1.050 starter won't be as good as a 1.040 or 1.037 one at the end of the day.

That said, I've made step starters for larger pitches by piecemealing from smaller starter vessels. Like using two 2 liter flasks. Either at the same time or one after the other. Cold crash in a separate vessel, like a gallon or half gallon jug, or my favorite, 1/2 gallon pickle jars, as you only want to pitch the slurry not the beer on top.

I get the best and fastest growth by oxygenating my starters for 2-4 minutes at 1/16 l/min. They get very foamy, and I let them sit like that for 4-6 hours before stirring/shaking, as I think the agitation knocks the O2 out of solution.

Thank you! I appreciate the helpful information. Looks like I may have to go for a step up starter since my yeast pack’s date is December 11th. I like the idea of doing possibly one 2ml starter with 1.040-1.045 but the calculator says I would be under pitched (0.84M cells / mL / °P compared to my target of 1.0M cells / mL / P)

It is matter of making a step up starter to reach my target but risk of contamination. Or avoid contamination by doing one starter of 1.045 wort but risk under-pitching. Which would be more ideal? My sanitization procedures is pretty solid but I get worried about messing up one time.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thank you! I appreciate the helpful information. Looks like I may have to go for a step up starter since my yeast pack’s date is December 11th. I like the idea of doing possibly one 2ml starter with 1.040-1.045 but the calculator says I would be under pitched (0.84M cells / mL / °P compared to my target of 1.0M cells / mL / P)

It is matter of making a step up starter to reach my target but risk of contamination. Or avoid contamination by doing one starter of 1.045 wort but risk under-pitching. Which would be more ideal? My sanitization procedures is pretty solid but I get worried about messing up one time.

Ah, you want to use a higher pitch rate of 1 million, since it's high gravity wort. Do the same, then when the starter is done pour half to 3/4 out into another vessel for cold crashing. Then add enough stronger wort of say, 1.060-1.080 to get 2 liters at 1.040 again, taking the volume of the leftover starter beer into consideration.

Or if you have the extra time, cold crash everything and make a new starter with some of the slurry from the first step.

It wouldn't hurt to make a vitality starter with the crashed slurry 4 hours before pitching it. Cold crashing, cold storage in general, puts the yeast into a state of dormancy. It's best to "wake her up" before pitching, especially into high gravity wort. The osmotic pressure can kill many cells if they're not properly "prepared." Oxygenate well, perhaps a 2nd time after 12-18 hours after pitching.

Also make sure yeast pack contents and slurries are within 10F from the wort they get pitched into. Within 5F is even better. That will prevent small mutant syndrome.

 

[jhembro13]

Ah, you want to use a higher pitch rate of 1 million, since it's high gravity wort. Do the same, then when the starter is done pour half to 3/4 out into another vessel for cold crashing. Then add enough stronger wort of say, 1.060-1.080 to get 2 liters at 1.040 again, taking the volume of the leftover starter beer into consideration.

Or if you have the extra time, cold crash everything and make a new starter with some of the slurry from the first step.

It wouldn't hurt to make a vitality starter with the crashed slurry 4 hours before pitching it. Cold crashing, cold storage in general, puts the yeast into a state of dormancy. It's best to "wake her up" before pitching, especially into high gravity wort. The osmotic pressure can kill many cells if they're not properly "prepared." Oxygenate well, perhaps a 2nd time after 12-18 hours after pitching.

Also make sure yeast pack contents and slurries are within 10F from the wort they get pitched into. Within 5F is even better. That will prevent small mutant syndrome.

I like the 2nd idea since I have about a week before brew day (Saturday or Sunday). Will make first starter soon and let it grow yeast in stir plate for 24 hours-36 hours then cold crashing before making 2nd starter.

What is the best way to “wake up” the crashed yeast? Let it warm up to room temp? And/or use stir plate to swirl the yeast? Definitely don’t want to ruin yeast from osmotic pressure.

 

[IslandLizard]

It may take 48-72 hours for a starter to get all the growth you want. 24-36 hrs is a bit short IME.
Once the starter becomes significantly lighter (milky) I give it another 24 hrs. When it starts to look like a thick milkshake or you see yeast visibly floccing out, it's done.

Let chilled yeast warm up slowly to the wort temp you're going to pitch it in, whether it's starter wort or your main batch. That's the first half of waking up.
The second part is by making a vitality starter. You'd only use about 2 liter of 1.040 wort for those 400 billion cells. After a max of 4 hours on the stir plate you pitch the whole thing, so you can start that when prepping or heating strike water.

 

[kh54s10]

Unless the yeast is quite old, which the OPs is not, 18 - 24 hours on a stirplate is plenty. If intermittent shaking that is another story and should be longer. On a stirplate the growth phase is pretty much done by 24 hours then the cells start depleting their energy in just fermenting the starter wort.

IMO, if you have made a proper starter there is no need for a vitality phase. If you have cold crashed, just decant the starter "beer" let it warm to pitching temperature, swirl up the cake and pitch it.

 

[jhembro13]

It may take 48-72 hours for a starter to get all the growth you want. 24-36 hrs is a bit short IME.
Once the starter becomes significantly lighter (milky) I give it another 24 hrs. When it starts to look like a thick milkshake or you see yeast visibly floccing out, it's done.

Let chilled yeast warm up slowly to the wort temp you're going to pitch it in, whether it's starter wort or your main batch. That's the first half of waking up.
The second part is by making a vitality starter. You'd only use about 2 liter of 1.040 wort for those 400 billion cells. After a max of 4 hours on the stir plate you pitch the whole thing, so you can start that when prepping or heating strike water.

Thank you for your tips! Made a starter and all is well. Cold crashed it and making a vitality starter this morning. Then cold crashing it one more time so I can decant for this weekend. Would the yeast be OK in the same flask and in the fridge for a few more days?

 

[jhembro13]

Unless the yeast is quite old, which the OPs is not, 18 - 24 hours on a stirplate is plenty. If intermittent shaking that is another story and should be longer. On a stirplate the growth phase is pretty much done by 24 hours then the cells start depleting their energy in just fermenting the starter wort.

IMO, if you have made a proper starter there is no need for a vitality phase. If you have cold crashed, just decant the starter "beer" let it warm to pitching temperature, swirl up the cake and pitch it.

Thank you for your tip! You were right. It only took me closer to 18 hours for the fermentation to complete. Had a blowoff too. Thankfully the aluminum foil stayed on while the foam/liquid leaked down a little. Definitely will cold crash and decant the starter beer before pitching.

 

[kh54s10]

I've done step starters where life got in the way and I left the starter in the fridge for a couple weeks, then did the final step. It worked just fine.

 

[jhembro13]

I've done step starters where life got in the way and I left the starter in the fridge for a couple weeks, then did the final step. It worked just fine.

Thank you, glad to know!

 

[hottpeper13]

I make a barrel aged RIS for my holiday beer every year. 2 weeks before brew day I make a blonde ale ~ 1.040, on brew day I rack it into a keg and pitch 1/2 of the yeast cake. I can pitch 4 normal brews with this cake so I just double it. I can't understand the proclivity to throw beer away by decanting when you can drink it.

 

[kh54s10]

I can't understand the proclivity to throw beer away by decanting when you can drink it.

Are you talking of a starter "beer"? If so go ahead and drink it if you really want to. But DME, no hops, fermented without temperature control, flat and warm... No thanks.......