Help With Flavorless Beers

[thirdeyeo4]

Lately I’ve had several batches that have come out almost tasteless. My last was a Bock with the recipe below. I use RO water and make adjustments. This is where I think I may be off however I’ve looked at other water profiles and they aren’t that different for a Bock. It has minimal malt, hints of bread, and is extremely clean. I’ve searched around for a decent answer to this but haven’t found anything that I really think is the answer. What I’m really looking for is that big round malt profile. Thanks for the help.

3 lbs 8.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM)
2 lbs 5.6 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)
1 lbs 11.9 oz Pilsner (Weyermann) (1.7 SRM)
4.8 oz Carafa I (Weyermann) (320.0 SRM)
1.15 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.0 pkg German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833)

Water profile:
Ca 54
Mg 0
Na 0
Cl 83
So4 16

Used washed yeast from a previous batch of Oktoberfest
Mash pH was 5.25
Mash temp 150F
FG 1.010
Fermented at 48F
Lagered for at least 6 weeks

 

[MarcusKillion]

That looks like a small grain bill to me . What size is your batch just a couple gallons ? Other than that it looks like a tasty beer to me .
I also like a malty beer .

 

[thirdeyeo4]

It's only a 3.5 gallon batch.

 

[MarcusKillion]

maybe you need to add in more grain ?
Maybe you need to up your mash temp to 157 or so . that would give more malt flavor I think .

 

[pdxal]

What was your OG? As mentioned before, you might want to mash at a higher temperature. Also, you might need more calcium chloride and perhaps some gypsum to get more punch from the hops and maltiness.

 

[C-Rider]

Did you use something like BeerSmith on your recipe? As stated you may be light on grain even for 3.5 gallons. I quite often brew with 5-6 lbs making 2 gallon batches mashing in like 2.8 gallons.

 

[thirdeyeo4]

My OG was a little low at 1.060 which still makes it a 6.75% beer. Yes I used Beersmith. I was shooting for the lower end of the alcohol spectrum. Would another 3/4lb to get it to the middle range of the style really make that much impact on flavor? There are plenty of lower alcohol beers with lots of flavor, this has almost none. I'll try adding some salts to the glass to test impact and maybe mash higher next time.

 

[rklinck]

I've never brewed a bock, but quick internets research suggests you need to up the Munich malt: http://beersmith.com/blog/2009/02/22/bock-and-doppelbock-beer-recipes-beer-styles/

I believe traditional bocks are made using a decoction mash, which is supposed to add malty flavors. The usual solution for people who want to avoid decoction mashing for other recipes is to add some Munich malt. Considering that Beersmith suggests that Munich should already be 75% or more of the grist, this may be a bit hard to do. Maybe adding a bit of caramel or caramunich malt will help.

 

[Pie_Man]

What were some of your other recipes?

Are you careful to avoid spalshing your beer after you pitch the yeast? Oxidation can cause beer to seem lifeless, stale, and generally less flavorful. I have heard Gordon Strong (head of the BCP, and like, jedi master level beer judge) mention that oxidation is the number one problem he tastes in home brew.

Also, did you use washed yeast in the other beers? Perhaps you are over pitching.

 

[BreezyBrew]

Also, did you use washed yeast in the other beers? Perhaps you are over pitching.

I had this problem, and pitching the correct rate solved it.

 

[MarcusKillion]

Interesting . too much yeast causes loss of flavor ? that is something to remember that i did not know .
@ 1.060 I would think it would have a lot of flavor

 

[cheezydemon3]

Wouldn't a bock have some srystal or cara? That recipe looks like a helles or something of the like that would, in fact, be pretty flavorless.

Regardless, this guy needs to discover crystal malts in order to get flavor.....that or HOPS or both.

 

[rklinck]

@ 1.060 I would think it would have a lot of flavor

I don't think the issue is lack of flavor overall. My understanding is that OP wants a bigger, rounder malt flavor. That will have more to do with the mix of grains (e.g., a 100% pilsner beer is not going to have a robust malt flavor).

 

[Pie_Man]

The OP mentions the lack of flavor in his last several batches. This may indicate a recurring problem that is not specific to the Bock recipe posted.

As far as a recipe critique, if this is a traditional Bock, I would probably play increase the ratio of Munich to the other base grains. I would also consider adding some caramunich and/or a light to med crystal. Or, I may forgo the crystal and use a decoction mash. Some people also add a touch of chocolate, aromatic, melanoidin, or biscuit malt for added malt complexity.

 

[rklinck]

Wouldn't a bock have some srystal or cara? That recipe looks like a helles or something of the like that would, in fact, be pretty flavorless.

Regardless, this guy needs to discover crystal malts in order to get flavor.....that or HOPS or both.

According to the link I posted from Beersmith, a true traditional bock does not have any crystal malt. It would be a mix of Munich malt (with various L rating) and maybe a small amount of Pilsner malt as well. That being said, it also says that most of the NHC second round award winners used some crystal.

This dichotomy seems pretty normal to me. I use DGB to start for recipes. If I stick the most traditional approach for German beers, I can't get enough maltiness. This is true even of the least malty -- Kolsches, which are traditionally 100% pilsner malt. I'm guessing the problem is that I don't do decoction mashes (just too much time). So, I tend to add more Munich and some crystal malts to all my German beers to get the level of malt backbone I am going for.

This weekend, for example, I am going to brew a Dusseldorf Alt. Traditional alts (according to DGB) would contain Pilsner, Munich, and a small amount of black malt for color. When I brewed it this way before, it just did not come out with much of a malty backbone. Instead, it was thin with the black malt adding too much flavor. I am going to reduce black malt (and may change it to chocolate) and going to sub out some of the base malt for crystal (as many homebrewers in the US do according to DGB) to get the level of maltiness I want.

 

[rklinck]

The OP mentions the lack of flavor in his last several batches. This may indicate a recurring problem that is not specific to the Bock recipe posted.

As far as a recipe critique, if this is a traditional Bock, I would probably play increase the ratio of Munich to the other base grains. I would also consider adding some caramunich and/or a light to med crystal. Or, I may forgo the crystal and use a decoction mash. Some people also add a touch of chocolate, aromatic, melanoidin, or biscuit malt for added malt complexity.

True, but his bottom line is: "What I’m really looking for is that big round malt profile." That says to me that what he is looking for is a way to up the malt flavor. The "big round" malt flavor will come from malts other than base malts (or maybe from decoction mashing).

 

[cheezydemon3]

According to the link I posted from Beersmith, a true traditional bock does not have any crystal malt. It would be a mix of Munich malt (with various L rating) and maybe a small amount of Pilsner malt as well. That being said, it also says that most of the NHC second round award winners used some crystal.

This dichotomy seems pretty normal to me. I use DGB to start for recipes. If I stick the most traditional approach for German beers, I can't get enough maltiness. This is true even of the least malty -- Kolsches, which are traditionally 100% pilsner malt. I'm guessing the problem is that I don't do decoction mashes (just too much time). So, I tend to add more Munich and some crystal malts to all my German beers to get the level of malt backbone I am going for.

This weekend, for example, I am going to brew a Dusseldorf Alt. Traditional alts (according to DGB) would contain Pilsner, Munich, and a small amount of black malt for color. When I brewed it this way before, it just did not come out with much of a malty backbone. Instead, it was thin with the black malt adding too much flavor. I am going to reduce black malt (and may change it to chocolate) and going to sub out some of the base malt for crystal (as many homebrewers in the US do according to DGB) to get the level of maltiness I want.

Nice post!

All that being true, I still feel like this guy is crying for help. He is brewing (what sound like) mild lagers, and wondering where the flavor is.

Ales with more hops and more crystal might be just what the doctor ordered.

 

[Pie_Man]

True, but his bottom line is: "What I’m really looking for is that big round malt profile." That says to me that what he is looking for is a way to up the malt flavor. The "big round" malt flavor will come from malts other than base malts (or maybe from decoction mashing).

I agree, and I think we have all provided some constructive feedback to the OP thus far.

My comment was not intended for anyone imparticular on this thread, I was just pointing out that there could be a larger issue at hand that is causing the OP flavor issues.

 

[rklinck]

Nice post!

All that being true, I still feel like this guy is crying for help. He is brewing (what sound like) mild lagers, and wondering where the flavor is.

Ales with more hops and more crystal might be just what the doctor ordered.

Agreed! And as someone else said, 150 is too low for the mash temp.

 

[Whattawort]

Higher mash temp with longer boil. My $.02

 

[helibrewer]

I have a very malt-forward Maibock recipe that I mashed at 156F (Single Infusion):

8# Pale Malt (2-row)
4# Munich I
4# Munich II
0.6 oz Magnum
WLP835 German Lager X (2.5L starter)

This is for 5 gallons and came in around 1.065 OG

 

[thirdeyeo4]

Thank you everyone for the constructive feedback. My issue is that I've had several beers turn out with not much flavor to them, almost at all. The German style Oktoberfest(basically a maltier Helles, rather than the more caramel American style) before this also had a subpar malt profile and general lack of flavor, as well as an IPA I just brewed that was a single malt with Citra and Amarillo hops. Here are the recipes to see if there's any consistent themes. Maybe I'm just terrible at my own recipes. Also, I don't believe they're oxidized, I'm pretty careful about extra splashing, and these other recipes are made from fresh vials with starters, not washed yeast. Thanks again for your feedback.

Oktoberfest (4.5g batch)

4 lbs 8.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM)
3 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)
8.0 oz Caramunich I (Weyermann) (34.0 SRM)
1.40 oz Hallertauer [3.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.1 pkg German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833) [35.49 ml]

Water profile:
Ca 60
Mg 0
Na 0
Cl 68
So4 52

OG 1.057
FG1.014
1.2L starter on stirplate
Mash temp 152F
Fermented at 48F
Lagered for 4 weeks

IPA(3 g batch)

6 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
0.50 oz Magnum [13.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.60 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min (Whirlpool)
0.80 oz Amarillo [8.40 %] - Boil 1.0 min (Whirlpool)
1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35.49 ml]

Water profile:
Ca 70
Mg 11
Na 10
Cl 52
So4 147

OG 1.053
FG1.0141
1000ml starter on stirplate
Mash temp 151F
Fermented at 66F

 

[rklinck]

Thank you everyone for the constructive feedback. My issue is that I've had several beers turn out with not much flavor to them, almost at all. The German style Oktoberfest(basically a maltier Helles, rather than the more caramel American style) before this also had a subpar malt profile and general lack of flavor, as well as an IPA I just brewed that was a single malt with Citra and Amarillo hops. Here are the recipes to see if there's any consistent themes. Maybe I'm just terrible at my own recipes. Thanks again for your feedback.

Oktoberfest (4.5g batch)

4 lbs 8.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM)
3 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)
8.0 oz Caramunich I (Weyermann) (34.0 SRM)
1.40 oz Hallertauer [3.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.1 pkg German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833) [35.49 ml]

Water profile:
Ca 60
Mg 0
Na 0
Cl 68
So4 52

OG 1.057
FG1.014
1.2L starter on stirplate
Mash temp 152F
Fermented at 48F
Lagered for 4 weeks

IPA(3 g batch)

6 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
0.50 oz Magnum [13.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.60 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min (Whirlpool)
0.80 oz Amarillo [8.40 %] - Boil 1.0 min (Whirlpool)
1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35.49 ml]

Water profile:
Ca 70
Mg 11
Na 10
Cl 52
So4 147

OG 1.053
FG1.0141
1000ml starter on stirplate
Mash temp 151F
Fermented at 66F

If you are looking for a more robust, malty flavor, you need to add more of the specialty malts other than caramel malts or use a decoction mash. This is a consistent problem I had. The one beer that I never had this trouble with was my red, which has biscuit, munich, two kinds of caramel, and a bit of roasted barley in it.

The second recipe seems like it would not have much flavor. The malt backbone is going to be thin because it is only base malt. You also don't have any flavor hop additions, just bitterness and aroma. I would add some hops with 10-15 minutes left in the boil.

 

[Pie_Man]

A couple things:

Definitely calibrate your thermometer before your next brew. If you thermometer is off, you could be mashing at a completely different temp and altering the desired character of your beer. Check it against really icy water, it should read 32, or very close to 32F. Then check it against boiling water, it should read 212, or maybe lower depending on your elevation.

I think recipe formulation and process are probably your biggest factors though.

For your German Lagers, which I too prefer without crystal malt, I think it helps to do a 90 boil to develop the melanoidin flavors I think you are looking for in your German beers. A decoction mash would be even better. You can also consider increasing the Munich and decreasing the Pilsner malt. The ratio of Munich to Pils can alter the beer on its own. You can also add a little bit of melanoidin malt to help mimic the flavors from a decoction mash. BTW, I'll be using the Hochkurz decoction method outlined here, http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Decoction_Mashing#Hochkurz_Double_Decoction for my next German lager. It's not too hard, just a little more work.

For the IPA, I think the recipe formulation was the issue, at least in terms of your desired malt profile. For this style, maybe add some English base malt to the US Pale Malt, or some Vienna malt for your base grains. Then if you want, you can add character grains like low and med range crystal malts, maybe a little biscuit malt, or something like that for increased malt complexity.

Hope this helps. Better luck on your next brew

 

[cheezydemon3]

The IPA has NO crystal, a SIN in my book.

An all pale malt IPA with no specialty grains will be one dimensional, or "plain".

 

[BreezyBrew]

The IPA has NO crystal, a SIN in my book.

An all pale malt IPA with no specialty grains will be one dimensional, or "plain".

Tried very low speciality grains in a PA before. I almost fell asleep drinking it, it was such a bore.

 

[rklinck]

Tried very low speciality grains in a PA before. I almost fell asleep drinking it, it was such a bore.

I've heard a lot of people suggest using low or no specialty grains in an IPA if you really want to accentuate the hops and bitterness. In other words, if all you are looking for is a canvas for a hop bomb, a boring grain bill might be a good idea. But if the OP wants to go that route, he definitely needs to add some flavor hops to his recipe (there are none).

I personally agree with you about using specialty grains, but that is because I don't like hop bombs. I want a balance and find that the specialty malts are what really round out and balance the hop bitterness.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I've heard a lot of people suggest using low or no specialty grains in an IPA if you really want to accentuate the hops and bitterness. In other words, if all you are looking for is a canvas for a hop bomb, a boring grain bill might be a good idea. But if the OP wants to go that route, he definitely needs to add some flavor hops to his recipe (there are none).

I personally agree with you about using specialty grains, but that is because I don't like hop bombs. I want a balance and find that the specialty malts are what really round out and balance the hop bitterness.

I consider a hop bomb 2 lbs of crystal and tons of hops.

All hops and no specialty is a hop grenade at best.

 

[thirdeyeo4]

For the IPA, what I was going for was a brightly colored yellow IPA. I've seen some recently here in PA based on what seem to be a basic Pils recipes. I was using Pizza Boy's Citra Pils as an example, or maybe a hoppier version of Victory's Prima Pils with a more bready character to it. The style I was going for has more of an American bready/dusty/gritty quality to them. So I figured to use American 2-Row and there couldn't be much more to them then that I wouldn't think. I was hoping to keep it very clean so the hops would shine.

 

[cheezydemon3]

For the IPA, what I was going for was a brightly colored yellow IPA. I've seen some recently here in PA based on what seem to be a basic Pils recipes. I was using Pizza Boy's Citra Pils as an example, or maybe a hoppier version of Victory's Prima Pils with a more bready character to it. The style I was going for has more of an American bready/dusty/gritty quality to them. So I figured to use American 2-Row and there couldn't be much more to them then that I wouldn't think. I was hoping to keep it very clean so the hops would shine.

Crystal 10L adds very little color and does add some flavor.

 

[rklinck]

For the IPA, what I was going for was a brightly colored yellow IPA. I've seen some recently here in PA based on what seem to be a basic Pils recipes. I was using Pizza Boy's Citra Pils as an example, or maybe a hoppier version of Victory's Prima Pils with a more bready character to it. The style I was going for has more of an American bready/dusty/gritty quality to them. So I figured to use American 2-Row and there couldn't be much more to them then that I wouldn't think. I was hoping to keep it very clean so the hops would shine.

Well a Pils is almost certainly made with pilsner malt, which has a very different character from basic 2-Row in my opinion. I don't really have a good vocabulary for it, but I would describe Pilsner malt as having a sweet note that you don't get in American 2-Row base malt.

Again, you really need flavor hop additions if you want the hops to shine. The recipe you posted will have bitterness and aroma but not much hop flavor. I'm guessing that's not what you are after.

 

[thirdeyeo4]

What do you all think about something like the following for the grain bill to start? I'm looking to brew this over and over until I get it right. Thanks again for all your responses.

Pilsner Malt 45%
American 2-Row 45%
Crystal 10%

 

[biertourist]

Wouldn't a bock have some srystal or cara? That recipe looks like a helles or something of the like that would, in fact, be pretty flavorless.

Regardless, this guy needs to discover crystal malts in order to get flavor.....that or HOPS or both.

?!??
1. This is a bock so HOPS == "No!"
2. Ever made a SMASH recipe or have a German Pils or Belgian Pale? -They're usually made with a single malt. It's like all the yeast-derived esters that are missing from overpitching. I think someone already nailed diagnosing this one.


Adam

 

[biertourist]

The IPA has NO crystal, a SIN in my book.

An all pale malt IPA with no specialty grains will be one dimensional, or "plain".

Vinnie Cilurzo of Russian River / PtE fame couldn't disagree more:

"Crystal malt and American hops (those found in IPA's) do not mix. At the most, use 5% crystal (45 lov) malt in an IPA or Double IPA - I prefer 3.5 -4%."

http://finnhillbrewing.blogspot.com/2011/01/10-factors-to-making-better-hoppy-beers.html


Obviously it depends upon what kind of IPA you want but if you want that dry finish ala a Southern California IPA then Crystal malt is the enemy. There are some truly incredible world-beating IPAs that eschew crystal/caramel malts.


Adam