Help with designing a dark colored light beer

[TheMadKing]

Hi all!

First off I've been extract brewing for about 6 years, and just switched to all-grain this summer. I'm also new to recipe designing and have only had 1 successful recipe.

My problem is that I have extremely alkaline water in my town with lots of carbonates and getting my mash pH down is a problem for me with lighter beers. RO water is waaay overpriced here ($15 for 6 gallons) and I don't trust that the RO machine is maintained regularly.

My LHBS also doesn't carry saurmalz or lactic acid. I could, of course, just order some acidulated malt online, but that's no fun! So this has begun to hatch a crazy plan.

I'm hankerin' for a pilsner or a cream ale, but to get my mash pH down I was thinking about starting with a good pilsner recipe and throwing in some black patent malt, or roasted barley to help bring my pH down.

Am I crazy? Is there a such thing as a black pilsner? Any advice is appreciated, including "don't be a dumba** go buy some lactic acid."

 

[Owly055]

You will get significant flavor from whatever blackened malt you throw in......... Those flavors will be very distinct in a light bodied pilsner type beer. You won't get color without flavor.

H.W.

 

[Vamptrump]

I can't speak to the validity of this, but I did find the following:

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2010/11/black-color-without-roast-flavor.html

I know Bell's used de-bittered/husked black malt with Uranus to make it a Black IPA without the roast.

 

[JordanKnudson]

That *will* help you bring down your pH. As stated, you'll be able to taste it in the final product, too. So, that's the trade-off, and you can decide for yourself whether it's what you want or not. I mean, black lagers are a thing.

 

[kh54s10]

My next lager is going to be a black lager.

Why not brew with bottled spring water, assuming it would be cheaper than the RO water?

Since you have had only one successful recipe I would steer clear of making a Lager which require careful temperature control. Try a Dark ale or Cascadian IPA. Or just a cream ale brewed with bottled water.

 

[BrewerBrad82]

Short of adding saurmalz or lactic acid, both gypsum (CaSO4) and calcium chloride (CaCl2) will work to bring your residual alkalinity down. They are both cheap additives and depending on the exact level of alkalinity in your source water, they could very well do the trick for you.

 

[TheMadKing]

Short of adding saurmalz or lactic acid, both gypsum (CaSO4) and calcium chloride (CaCl2) will work to bring your residual alkalinity down. They are both cheap additives and depending on the exact level of alkalinity in your source water, they could very well do the trick for you.

I've started adding these to my brew water after getting some technical advice from Ajdelange. The only problem is that I have enough carbonate that I have to pre-boil my brew water after the mineral additions because I end up with about 1/16" of precipitate on the bottom of my brew kettle with 9 gallons of water in it! I don't want all that sediment to end up in my beer.

This pre-boil adds about an hour to my brew day that I was trying to work around. Really, I'm just being lazy and cheap and I could just go buy bottled water as suggested and follow a recipe and make a good light beer. I was just curious if this dark colored "light beer" was even a thing. I think of Guinness as a fairly light beer, so I didn't know if the flavor could be lightened up with the addition of dark malts.

Thanks for the help everyone!

 

[TheMadKing]

I can't speak to the validity of this, but I did find the following:

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2010/11/black-color-without-roast-flavor.html

I know Bell's used de-bittered/husked black malt with Uranus to make it a Black IPA without the roast.

Thanks! I just read through all the comments on the article and a guy tested his pH with the Carafa added and it dropped it, which is all I really need it for.

Another reason I want to do this is because many famous beer styles evolved to suit the environment in which they were made. I want to make a beer that takes advantage of my natural water supply and compensate for it's deficiencies in an "old school" way. My goal is to make a style of beer unique to my water characteristics if that makes any sense?

 

[iijakii]

That article is about sparging with your dark grains, not going to help you achieve your mash pH.

 

[TheMadKing]

That article is about sparging with your dark grains, not going to help you achieve your mash pH.

One of the guys that tried it said it dropped his pH to 5.11 during the sparge, so why couldn't I grind up some Carafa and throw it in the mash to drop the pH the same way?

Do you think I'd get too many flavors out of it doing that?

 

[iijakii]

And pils are best with a pretty minimal water profile -- adding a bunch of gypsum etc to lower pH isn't really the best thing either flavor-wise.

 

[iijakii]

One of the guys that tried it said it dropped his pH to 5.11 during the sparge, so why couldn't I grind up some Carafa and throw it in the mash to drop the pH the same way?

Do you think I'd get too many flavors out of it doing that?

Yes. The idea behind only adding at sparge is to get minimal flavors from it. If you mash you'll be getting all the goodness.

 

[TheMadKing]

So it sounds like this is a terrible idea and I'm better off just brewing with bottled water and ordering some acid malt.

Thanks!

 

[iijakii]

1) Brew a dark lager - Schwarzbier is such a delicious style.
2) Order acid malt
3) Brew a pils without any water mods and pray to the gods your pH isn't too bad.

 

[Jonkl]

Look up some Kentucky Common recipes (not the sour kind, unless that's your thing). The German immigrant brewers had similar water issues, and managed to make easy-drinking beers that weren't too overpowered by the dark malts necessary for pH adjustment.

 

[TX_Brewing]

I normally do the following with a single infusion and it turns out great! It is from the Zymurgy recipes that they post for free online, and is a Papazian recipe.

Puna Coast Black Lager | Schwarzbier
INGREDIENTS
• For 5.5 gallons (21 L)
• 8.5 lb (3.6 kg) | Pilsener pale malt
• 4 oz (112 g) | Belgian aromatic malt
• 6 oz (170 g) | German Caraffe or Belgian debittered black malt
• 1.3 oz (37 g) | German Hallertauer (or equivalent of Crystal, Mt. Hood, Santiam, Tettnanger or Saaz) (6 HBU/172 MBU) whole hops at 60
• minutes
• 1 oz (28 g) | hops (same as above) (4 HBU/112MBU) whole hops or pellets @ 10 minutes
• 0.25 tsp | powdered Irish moss
• 0.75 cup (180 mL) | corn sugar (priming bottles) or .33 cups (80 mL) corn sugar (kegging)
• Quality lager yeast for German style lagers
SPECIFICATIONS
•Original Gravity: 1.048 (12° P)
•Final Gravity: 1.012 (3° P)
•ABV: 4.8%
•IBU: 22
•SRM: 28 (56 EBC)
•Boil Time: 60 minutes
•Efficiency: n/a
•Pre-boil Volume: 6 gallons (23 L)
•Pre-boil Gravity: n/a
DIRECTIONS
•A step infusion mash is employed to mash the grains.
•Add 9 quarts (8.5 L) of 143°F (61.5°C) water to the crushed grain, stir, stabilize and hold temperature at 132°F (53°C) for 30 minutes.
•Add 4.5 quarts (4.5 L) of boiling water and add heat to bring temperature up to 157°F (69.5°C) and hold for about 30 minutes.
•Then raise the temperature to 167F° (75°C), lauter and sparge with 4 gallons (15 L) of 170°F (77°C) water.
•Collect about 6 gallons (23 L) of runoff and add 60 minute hops and bring to a full vigorous boil.
•The total boil time will be 60 minutes or long enough to end up with 5.5 gallons (21 L) of wort.
•When 10 minutes remain add remaining one ounce hops and Irish moss.
•After a total wort boil of at least 60 minutes (5.5 gallons should remain) turn off heat and cool all of the wort. Use an immersion cold-water bath or heat exchanging coils.
•Then strain and rack to a sanitized fermenter.
•Pitch a good dose of healthy, active lager yeast and primary ferment at temperatures at about 55°F (12.5°C); make sure that nearly all of the fermentation is complete before lagering.
•Rack from the primary to the secondary. Your net yield will be 5 gallons (19 L) to secondary.
•Lager between 25 – 40°F (2 – 4.5°C) for 4 to 6 weeks.
•Prime with sugar and bottle or keg when lagering is complete.

 

[TheMadKing]

Awesome thank you! I'll have to make some modifications for my BIAB setup I think, but I can work with that!

 

[Iseneye]

Good to see you changed your mind. Compromising your beers just because you have crappy water sounds like a terrible idea. If you really want to work with your water then choose a style that works - don't force a style that won't such as a pilsner.

If you do have high alkalinity (you haven't provided any numbers) then you can adjust with acid to a mash pH of 5.3-5.6. Even with your dark beers you will likely still need acid adjustments. You will need a good pH meter to determine this (calculators get you in the ball park).

 

[JKaranka]

I'd stick to porter and stout. Sounds like London water and that's what they developed. Dark mild maybe. Lactic acid is by way the easiest way to move to lighter beers.

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/950-ml-of-8...039?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b246b917

 

[TheMadKing]

Good to see you changed your mind. Compromising your beers just because you have crappy water sounds like a terrible idea. If you really want to work with your water then choose a style that works - don't force a style that won't such as a pilsner.

If you do have high alkalinity (you haven't provided any numbers) then you can adjust with acid to a mash pH of 5.3-5.6. Even with your dark beers you will likely still need acid adjustments. You will need a good pH meter to determine this (calculators get you in the ball park).

Ive got 206ppm bicarbonate and total alkalinity of 170ppm. A good pH meter is high on the shopping list, just wish they weren't so damn expensive!

 

[The_Bishop]

I have the same issue with the water in my house. I'm on a well, hard water with very high alkalinity.

Got very tired of buying 9-10 gallons of water every time I wanted to brew, as well as the added cost. I decided that an RO system sized big enough with an 11 gallon storage tank was what I needed. As a benefit, it feeds my refrigerator dispenser/ice maker and a separate tap at the sink for cooking/drinking.

 

[TheMadKing]

I have the same issue with the water in my house. I'm on a well, hard water with very high alkalinity.

Got very tired of buying 9-10 gallons of water every time I wanted to brew, as well as the added cost. I decided that an RO system sized big enough with an 11 gallon storage tank was what I needed. As a benefit, it feeds my refrigerator dispenser/ice maker and a separate tap at the sink for cooking/drinking.

Nice! How much did a setup like that run you? And how movable is it? I live in an apartment and will probably be moving in the next year or two.

 

[The_Bishop]

The cost really depends on what you're looking for. I added a lot to my system, including a booster pump, over time.

You can do a bare-bones setup for somewhere around 100-125 if you're not looking for storage tanks and the like. I've been buying from Buckeye Hydro lately. Great service!

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Remember guys that the size of the pressurized storage container used on your RO system is independent of the gallons per day produced by your RO system. Pressure tanks come in many many sizes/capacities, and additionally, you can use more than one pressure tank.

Russ