Help! Repeated failed brews

[jekeane]

How long are you keeping your beer in primary? How are your washing/rinsing your bottles? What is your method for pitching your yeast (types and temperatures) and aeration of your wort?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

buttery flavor is like above diacetyl and can go away over time but its hard to get rid of completely, try fermenting at a low temperature and I mean very low like 60 and you wont get any flavors you don't want

 

[normonster]

Get an aeration system, fridge and temp controller and you're set.

 

[Spartan300man]

Make sure your bottle tree is sprayed with sanitizer too! I have used the inside of my dishwasher, right after running a cycle, and I spray the dishwasher rack with Star-San. I pull the bottles out of the Star-San buckete, and then place them on the sprayed rack to drip dry upside down, and start filling them quickly thereafter.
I have seen people on this board clean out their bottles, then put them into musty old cardboard cases. Old cardboard is a Petri Dish for infections.
I pulled apart my filling wand after my last filling session and was surprised to see some hop leaves that had gotten stuck in there.

 

[flars]

Lets concentrate on the last beer that was bad. Give us the recipe, yeast pitched and number of cells pitched, fermentation temperature, time in primary, and basic cleaning and sanitation procedure.

Maybe we can find something before your current three go bad.

 

[JordanKnudson]

I agree that "buttery" is THE word used to describe diacetyl, so fermentation practices/conditions would be to blame.

Another thing that I ran into early on in my brewing was that my water supply was no good. I'm not talking about this hyper-specific "my total magnesium is .5 ppm higher than ideal" stuff. I'm talking chemically treated, ruin-your-batch, bad brewing water. So where are you getting your water? Tap water is finicky sometimes. Purchasing distilled water and using that with your extract would sort out any water problems you might currently have, if any. The same concerns apply to any water that will go into the beer, whether it's your priming solution, or even the water you use to clean and sanitize (you don't necessarily need to use distilled for these parts, but you want to at least take into account what water you *are* using here). I wouldn't think that what you are describing above would come from a water issue, but it's best to ask and at least we can eliminate it as a possibility.

 

[derek8307]

Great advice on this thread for bottling..when I bottled, my process was:

Day Before Bottling Day:
-Clean everything(bottles, hoses, etc.) I will be using with hot water mixed with some Oxy Clean, rinse well and dry (I usually did this the day before bottling day arrived).


Day of Bottling Day:
- Boil my priming sugar in the right amount of distilled water and then let it cool on the stove while I was setting up everything else to bottle.

- Soak ALL of my clean bottles in a bucket with Star San and place them in my fast racks or bottle tree to drain.

- Soak/submerge all caps in a dish of Star San.

- Soak all hoses, bottling valve, wand and anything else coming into contact with the beer during bottling in a bucket Star San for a minimum of 5 mins.

- Wash my own hands well and soak them in Star San for a min or 2 and then assemble the sanitized bottling bucket and hook up everything for bottling.

- Pour the sugar solution into a bottling bucket that is clean and has been sanitized with Star San(dont fear the foam!).

- Rack the beer quietly into the bottling bucket (as someone else said, right on top of the priming sugar water). I never stirred the beer after racking. Ever.

- Place sanitized bucket lid over the bottling bucket containing the racked beer to keep anything from floating into the beer while bottling.

- Bottle and cap.

- Place bottled beer into a room temp(70-77Deg) closet out of direct light for 2 weeks.

- Pull a bottle sample at 2 weeks. If its ready and carbed, toss it in the fridge and start enjoying.

Just what I did before I started kegging and it worked for me. I also only used tap water once. It turned out badly due to the quality of my tap water and I moved to distilled/RO water and its worked wonders for me and my beer.

Can you please tell me what the flavor/aroma was like with the bad water you used?

 

[derek8307]

Any descriptions for what bad water does to beer? I'm switching to spring water asap

 

[derek8307]

Do the off flavors mellow out after 3+ weeks? or do they continue to get worse?

Also, do you develop gushers/overcarbed beers?

EDIT: You can also measure your gravity at bottling, then after 2 weeks. If it drops significantly, its an infection. Just make sure you degas your carbed beer before taking the second reading.

The flavors get a little worse I would say. Definitely don't mellow out. They may be a little overcarbed, but that could just be my impatience in getting some bottled before fully fermented. I tend to bottle right around 3 week mark. Earlier if I'm too anxious lol.

 

[bbohanon]

Any descriptions for what bad water does to beer? I'm switching to spring water asap

Depends on the makeup of the bad water..for me it was more of a muddy, harsh taste to the beer..I have very hard well water (North Carolina) and it has quite a bit of iron content in it. I have a household in-line water filter with a water softner and after 3 months when I pull the in-line filter to change it out, it looks like a turd its so dirty and brown.

If your on city tap water, it may be as simple as trying your hand at putting some campden tablets in your brew water before brew day to knock out the Chlorine/Chloromine the city usually treats their water with. Sometimes that is enough to get the water to a usable state.

I switched to store bought spring water back when I was 5 gallon extract brewing and the beer instantly was much better, cleaner, and crisper.

These days with me doing 10gal all grain batches, I swap out 4 of the big 5 gallon Primo water containers as its RO water and I build my own water profile with mineral additions.

To each his own however. I know that brewers in different parts of the country have well water that I would kill to have and is just shy of perfect for brewing right when it comes out of the ground. Thats just not the case here in the piedmont region of NC.

 

[beerkench]

Here are some of my things learned that could be of help:
Bad cleaning practices turned some of my IPA's into thin bitter tonic, wine like beers. I've learned now that it's important to CLEAN as well as sanitize.
Oxidation is also an IPA killer. Even the headspace left in a bottle is enough to make the hops fade after a week or so. Purge everything.
60f is very low for ale yeasts. Are you letting the temps rise? At this temp you would likely need a bigger pitch.
If you are pitching at 60 it's best to let the yeast take itself up to 68-70 to ensure a good diacyetyl rest.

 

[passedpawn]

[threads merged; derek, please only one thread per subject]

 

[obtuce]

I read all the posts and nobody mentionned fermentation temperature or sunlight. are your bottles exposed to sun when carbing up ? was your primary in an overly-hot location ?

 

[beerkench]

I read all the posts and nobody mentionned fermentation temperature or sunlight. are your bottles exposed to sun when carbing up ? was your primary in an overly-hot location ?

How did you read all the posts? The OP states that he has temp control.

 

[Smellyglove]

OP said that he doesnt weigh down the dryhops. I've had hops sitting around in ambient temp (forgot to seal and toss the bag back into the freezer), some stray pellets here and there, and I'd definitely say that it can smell kind of buttery.

So if OP opens the fermentor, introduces oxygen into it, and an unknown amount of hops is just floating about in the muslin bag the entire time at fermentation temps.. maybe this can have something to do with it too?

 

[beskone]

Are you boiling or bringing the kettle to a boil with the lid on your kettle?

I did an IPA brew day where I had like 10 friends over for beers and brewing and as such was totally distracted and left the lid on my kettle, up to the boil and into a boil over.

The finished bottled beer smelled and tasted oh so much of creamed corn, the entire batch was a dumper.

DMS evaporates out during the boil, so having left the lid on it concentrated then it fell back into the kettle and into solution...oops!

 

[Hillsbrew79]

Sanitation is absolutely key in producing a good quality beer. I've tried bleach, star-san, and idophor, and idophor works the best. As an added bonus, you don't even need to rinse it. I just use an once per 5 gallons of tap water and let all equipment marinate in the solution for about 20-30 min, drain it and go to work. Even in light beers with little hop bitterness, I can't detect idophor at all.

Healthy yeast is another must. I've had the best results with dry yeast, and I always hydrate it prior to pitching (use boiled distilled or dechlorinated tap water cooled to about 95-100F, add yeast and stir for a few minutes before pitching). I find that hydrating starts things up quicker and tends to attenuate a little better as well.

I typically don't use muslin or anything for hops - I just toss them in to my secondary vessel and rack the beer on top (pellets work best). Gently roll the fermenter around to get the pellets into suspension every other day and they should sink to the bottom by bottling time. I've never had an issue with off-flavors, or any hop sediment getting into the bottle, and always get nice assertive hop flavor and aroma that way.

Give these things a try, and I'm sure your next batch will be way better.

- David

 

[jschein]

Using the fast ferment conical fermenter, what is best method to bottle, in particular, adding priming sugar?

Do it the same as if you used a bucket or carboy, drain it into your bottling bucket.

 

[TheMadKing]

OP said that he doesnt weigh down the dryhops. I've had hops sitting around in ambient temp (forgot to seal and toss the bag back into the freezer), some stray pellets here and there, and I'd definitely say that it can smell kind of buttery.

So if OP opens the fermentor, introduces oxygen into it, and an unknown amount of hops is just floating about in the muslin bag the entire time at fermentation temps.. maybe this can have something to do with it too?

I don't think that would cause any issues.

@Yooper didn't you say you never weigh down hops in another thread recently?

 

[passedpawn]

I don't think that would cause any issues.

@Yooper didn't you say you never weigh down hops in another thread recently?

I doubt many experienced homebrewers do anything other than toss pellet hops into the fermentor when dryhopping. What you DONT want is anything in your wort floating. I've seen many infections from floating hop bags.

Also, old hops tend to smell cheesy, like blue cheese, not buttery. At least that's my experience. I've used them anyway, but I can't recall if it had an effect on the beer. I doubt it.

 

[Smellyglove]

I doubt many experienced homebrewers do anything other than toss pellet hops into the fermentor when dryhopping. What you DONT want is anything in your wort floating. I've seen many infections from floating hop bags.

Also, old hops tend to smell cheesy, like blue cheese, not buttery. At least that's my experience. I've used them anyway, but I can't recall if it had an effect on the beer. I doubt it.

My thought was the muslin bag trapping air so it stayed afloat

 

[passedpawn]

My thought was the muslin bag trapping air so it stayed afloat

Trapping CO2 more likely, coming from the below. Who knows. But they seem to float. Maybe the pics I've seen were leaf hops, can't remember.

Look through the infection thread, you'll see loads.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=71400

 

[derek8307]

Ok guys, wow, you all really are out to help people, it;s good having such support to help resolve my issue.

I'll try to address as much as I can:

This taste and smell has been pretty common in all of my brews to date. Some not as bad as others, and mostly in any hoppy beers I have made.

The last couple of brews were single hop extract brews. Trying to test hops for flavor and aroma to find what I really like. Using a dark malt extract to make my version of a DIPA on both. Using US 05, but have used others as well with similar taste, like I said this flavor and aroma has become FAMILIAR since I started brewing a year ago.

Sanitation I have only used a cleanser, and with your help I have opted to get some Star san today to correct that problem. Bottling procedure I believe I explained in earlier post. Rack to bottling bucket, bottle as gently as possible, after mixing in my priming sugar solution. Some batches I know I aerated too much as this point, but some hardly any, but taste has always been common after few days in bottle.

Water, I use tap water. I live in Florida. This is something I am eliminating going forward, only distilled from here forward.

I also stopped at my LHBS and discussed the issue with a brewmaster there, he also let me sample a recent infected batch a customer of his brought in, Lactobacillus is NOT my issue lol, that crap was like cat piss!

So I am left with 3 possible issues causing it I believe: Sanitation, which I bought star san and PBW today so going forward should be eliminated, Oxidation, I have some better tools to avoid this going forward, and my tap water, which I wont be using any longer.

Anything else I could be missing or overlooking?

SORRY about the merge threads, I thought the first had not posted, so I posted another. Just realized that.

 

[Spartan300man]

Did you take one of your beers to the home brew shop? Let them have a taste.

 

[derek8307]

Not yet but I am tomorrow

I was a little embarassed to suggest it, let alone let them try it, but after tasting that lacto, I feel like my beers are "pleasant" lol

 

[derek8307]

Funny thing is that there was a guy in there from another brewery that tried that lacto batch with me and he actually liked that cat piss, man that's gotta be some acquired taste.....

 

[beskone]

One more question, how are you conditioning your bottles?

I have another questionable batch that's 3 weeks in.

Almost no carbonation and a caramel taste and smell, I'm attributing it to the priming sugar still being in the bottles as the yeast hasn't done it's thing yet.

I was conditioning in my garage and I think the temperature is swinging too hot in the daytime and too low at night.

This batch is also getting darker in the bottles.

I've moved them inside and have made room in a closet to condition my next IPA I'm bottling on Thursday, and a blonde ale I'm bottling on Friday.

I'm hoping this helps. Before moving (was in an apartment and conditioning in my closet) and starting to condition in my garage I'd never had a brew not mostly carbonated by week 2. This is the second batch in a row that's not carbed one bit at week 3 and I think the extra time in the bottles are causing some of the off flavors.

 

[derek8307]

I condition them by leaving in a room temp closet for up to a week or 2, depending on how well they carbonate as I impatiently begin popping them a few days after bottling. Once I realize they're about where I need them, I move to the fridge.

Sounds like you may have an issue with your yeast, only time I couldn't get carbonation is when I tried to do a barleywine with basic ale yeast that couldn't take it the distance. Still have those bottled hoping in a few months there might be a little fizz when I open em.

 

[Hillsbrew79]

It is possible the garage environment could have killed your yeast - especially if the garage reached triple digits. Although it can be tough to do during the summertime, it's best to keep active fermenters and bottles at a stable temp below 80 degrees if at all possible (reduces off-flavors and gives you a better beer overall)

If the beer is a higher gravity beer (1.070 O.G. or higher), you may have under-pitched yeast as well. It's always a good policy to pitch 2 packets of yeast in these beers or a 2 liter starter. This will ensure you will have more than enough viable yeast. I learned the hard way when I used a single yeast packet to ferment a 1.085 beer - took nearly 3 months to get fully carbonated.

 

[beskone]

I would hope it's not the yeast, it was 3 vials of san diego super warmed to room temp and tossed in a 5.5 gallon batch (no stirplate to make a starter when I made this batch)

It was a nice aggressive fermentation, I think there's plenty of beasties still there. I just think the mid 80's to possibly mid 60's temp swings weren't allowing them to fully wake up and do work before it got cold and they went back to sleep...

I condition them by leaving in a room temp closet for up to a week or 2, depending on how well they carbonate as I impatiently begin popping them a few days after bottling. Once I realize they're about where I need them, I move to the fridge.

Sounds like you may have an issue with your yeast, only time I couldn't get carbonation is when I tried to do a barleywine with basic ale yeast that couldn't take it the distance. Still have those bottled hoping in a few months there might be a little fizz when I open em.