Help! Repeated failed brews

[derek8307]

So here's the situation. Only been brewing for a few months. Sanitation is far better than when I started.

I cannot figure out what is causing this flavor in my beer after bottling....its I guess buttery, but bitter, and almost moldy I suppose, very hard to put a distinct name on it.

Here's what I know:
Happens more with ipa's using lots of hops/dry hopping

Beer has tasted and smelled FANTASTIC prior to bottling in many batches.

Within days of bottling, any desirable aromas and flavors are gone and replaced with a much less desirable bitterness/buttery flavor

I use extract. I thought it was my hops, have replaced with hop union fresh hops. Thought it was oxidation, now use a conical fermenter (fast ferment) that reduces any agitation at bottling by bottling from bottom of fermenter. Thought it was yeast, pretty sure now its not. Also using 1gallon carboys and recently purchased autosyphon and a bottling tool that has a plunger that goes in bottles to avoid oxidation. My previous batches in them I know I oxidized, but that doesn't explain the ones in the conical fermenter. I also dry hop with pellets in muslin bags but do not submerge. Boil bags prior. Use hops I keep sealed in freezer. I don't believe that leaving floating hop bag will oxidize from what I read, but that's my next thought to tackle.

I don't want to ruin another batch and I have 3 ipa's fermenting currently, hoping to avoid same situation.

I'm pulling my hair out trying to understand how such perfect beer can become horrible in a matter of days.... yes I know I'm impatient trying my brews in few days, but trust me, the taste doesn't go away, only gets worse if anything.

I just want a great homebrewed ipa........sigh lol

Any help or suggestions are appreciated!

 

[derek8307]

Ok, any help would be wonderful in diagnosing this issue.

I have been brewing for the last year, and I love this hobby. But I keep having similar problems, most often with any hoppy beers. I brew, I ferment, I drop hop, I rack to bottling bucket, and at that point the beer is PERFECT. Wonderful scents, wonderful taste (after bottling and having a little left to try) but this is where everything takes a turn for the worst. Within days, my pleasant aromas and tastes are gone and replaced with a very OFF flavor. I test bottles each day and usually the problem only gets worse. I have a very hard time describing the taste, maybe "buttery" or "vinegar"

Here is what I do know and as many facts as possible:

Happens with any yeast, using fermentis 05 04 notty s33, not the yeast I assume

more prevalent in hoppy beers, I drop hop with a muslin bag, but dont weight it down, though I am going to start to

hops are all fresh, I suspected old moldy hops, so bought very fresh right out of bag pellets

I have suspected oxidation but sometimes my racking is better than others but with same results. And the problem just occurred again using a fast ferment conical fermenter that reduces any issues with splashing as you can bottle from the bottom of fermenter

I prime by boiling water and adding sugar, have tried table sugar and candi sugar, same results still

I've converted a fridge to ferment at proper temps, ferment at 60* for the last 4 or 5 brews



I'm pulling my hair out trying to figure this out. Each time I think I created this wonderful IPA that blows me away with aroma and taste, it quickly changes within days in the bottle. I just want to start having brews smell and taste the same as on bottling day. What could I possibly be doing wrong?

 

[bbohanon]

Ok, any help would be wonderful in diagnosing this issue.

I have been brewing for the last year, and I love this hobby. But I keep having similar problems, most often with any hoppy beers. I brew, I ferment, I drop hop, I rack to bottling bucket, and at that point the beer is PERFECT. Wonderful scents, wonderful taste (after bottling and having a little left to try) but this is where everything takes a turn for the worst. Within days, my pleasant aromas and tastes are gone and replaced with a very OFF flavor. I test bottles each day and usually the problem only gets worse. I have a very hard time describing the taste, maybe "buttery" or "vinegar"

Here is what I do know and as many facts as possible:

Happens with any yeast, using fermentis 05 04 notty s33, not the yeast I assume

more prevalent in hoppy beers, I drop hop with a muslin bag, but dont weight it down, though I am going to start to

hops are all fresh, I suspected old moldy hops, so bought very fresh right out of bag pellets

I have suspected oxidation but sometimes my racking is better than others but with same results. And the problem just occurred again using a fast ferment conical fermenter that reduces any issues with splashing as you can bottle from the bottom of fermenter

I prime by boiling water and adding sugar, have tried table sugar and candi sugar, same results still

I've converted a fridge to ferment at proper temps, ferment at 60* for the last 4 or 5 brews



I'm pulling my hair out trying to figure this out. Each time I think I created this wonderful IPA that blows me away with aroma and taste, it quickly changes within days in the bottle. I just want to start having brews smell and taste the same as on bottling day. What could I possibly be doing wrong?

How are you cleaning/sanitizing your bottles? Sounds like that is where the problem is starting to present itself..You can try to replace all your bottling equipment as maybe its picking something funky up from the bottling equipment (hoses, wand, bottling bucket, etc.)
Also make sure you are keeping the bottles out of any direct sunlight during bottle conditioning. Sun = Skunked

Oxidation could be a culprit, but if you are being careful with the beer, you would really have to beat the beer up to get it to be that bad in the bottle which it sounds like you are not doing so I am not sure thats the case.

Not sure if you can or not, but if possible, you can try to rack it to a keg and force carb it to see if you are getting off flavors during the bottle conditioning and not in the keg.. I noticed my beer was more "consistent" flavor-wise from fermenter to glass when I started kegging/force carbing it and keeping it cold while force carbing. I still bottle, but I bottle directly from the keg post carbing with a beer gun and I keep the beer cold at all times regardless if its in the keg or the bottle post-fermentation if at all possible.

 

[derek8307]

I boil nearly everything. I boil the water and use 1step cleaner and pour that into every bottle and give it a few minutes then shake and pour out getting almost all liquid out. I used brand new tubing on my last batch to go from the conical ferment to my bottles, boiled in water prior.

It baffles me how such good beer, goes bad so quickly. Clearly everything leading up to bottling day is being done correctly. How long should I boil the water used fro priming?

 

[Takuie]

I too would say it sounds like it may be something in your bottling process. Here are a few what I consider popular potential problem areas:

1) What are you washing your bottles with?

2) What are you using as a sanitizer?

3) What kind of buckets are you using and are you cleaning or have cleaned them with any type of abrasive pad? (steel wool, scotch brite, etc)

4) How old are your hoses, and what type of hoses are they? (pvc tubing, vinyl tubing, etc)

5) Do you use 3 way ball valves? If so, when is the last time you REALLY cleaned them?

 

[Gavin C]

How do you add the priming solution to the beer at bottling?

Is one step a sanitizer or a cleaner?

 

[joshesmusica]

How long are you letting them be in the bottle before you're drinking them?

 

[m00ps]

If it ONLY happens with hop foward beers I would have to guess either oxidation or something with your water chemistry and hop compounds. Or a combo of both. What water are you using? Also, have you ever tasted an oxidized beer? You said you arent great at describing the tastes so Im wondering if the off taste is at least some part due to oxidation.

Butter and Vinegar are 2 common off flavors in beer but caused by different things. Its weird that you only get these in hoppy beers though since it really doesnt have to do with that. Either way, it definitely seems to present itself at bottling. Doesnt seem to be an infection though.

 

[Takuie]

I boil nearly everything. I boil the water and use 1step cleaner and pour that into every bottle and give it a few minutes then shake and pour out getting almost all liquid out. I used brand new tubing on my last batch to go from the conical ferment to my bottles, boiled in water prior.

It baffles me how such good beer, goes bad so quickly. Clearly everything leading up to bottling day is being done correctly. How long should I boil the water used fro priming?

Dont boil your hoses, I have read somewhere that this does cause the plastics to start cracking and/or leeching chemicals because the high temperatures start breaking down a few of the chemicals or something to that extent.

 

[derek8307]

One step is listed as a no rinse cleanser for home brewers. I use vinyl tubing. Whether I pop a bottle in 2 days or 3 weeks, taste is same, but usually gets progressively worse. Priming sugar is boiled in water and poured gently into beer.
How long should I boil the water with priming sugar in it?

 

[derek8307]

So I should just use cleanser in the hoses prior to bottling?

 

[Gavin C]

. Priming sugar is boiled in water and poured gently into beer.

There is a problem. Do you stir it in afterwards? You do this in the bottling bucket or the fermentor?

 

[mkyl428]

How does the beer taste after a couple of weeks in the bottle, you say within a couple of days it tastes funky, the yeast would be fermenting piming sugar a couple days after bottling, resulting in "green" tasting beer full of yeast.

 

[derek8307]

I know its not the best but I use tap water, but always boiled. And the water wouldn't make sense if prior to bottling all is well, because that is with the same water, at least I would think.

 

[derek8307]

I stir in the priming sugar after pouring in. And it is done either in bottling bucket or conical fermenter. Yes it tastes this way at 2 days after bottling and every day after. Its so frustrating having gems prior to bottling, then crap days later. Maybe I'll start drinking flat beer right out of fermenter lol

 

[Gavin C]

I stir in the priming sugar after pouring in. And it is done either in bottling bucket or conical

Don't stir. This is a great way to introduce oxygen resulting in the degradation of the nice fresh flavors and aromas.

Put priming solution in the bottling bucket. Rack the beer onto it with a small (12") coil of hose at the bottom of the bucket. This will create a swirl doing all the mixing you need.

DO NOT STIR is the point. It's not best practice. It's not needed.

Bottling is the time when your beer is at greatest risk of oxidation. Nail this process down if you want to put and end to your dissapointment

Edit: Tap water is fine for making priming solution. Boil it to sanitize and add it to the bottling bucket. Cool it first if it makes you feel better. It cools fast once it hits the plastic and the beer starts flowing so no worries there.

 

[ricshayne]

So I should just use cleanser in the hoses prior to bottling?

no, clean and sanitize everything that comes in contact with your beer on the cold side.
For cleaning use PBW or Oxyclean Free

For sanitizing use 1 step, Starsan or Iodophor

You said this problem occurs mainly in hoppy beers which leads me to believe it could be some sort of oxidation. i used to get oxidation in my IPAs from air sucking back into the airlock while cold crashing. I stopped cold crashing and no longer have that problem

 

[peterj]

One step is listed as a no rinse cleanser for home brewers. I use vinyl tubing. Whether I pop a bottle in 2 days or 3 weeks, taste is same, but usually gets progressively worse. Priming sugar is boiled in water and poured gently into beer.
How long should I boil the water with priming sugar in it?

One step is said to be a cleaner and a sanitizer, but from what I've read it's not that great at sanitizing. You need to use an actual sanitizer like Star San or Iodophor or something.

As long as you get the priming solution up to a boil it's fine. You don't need to boil it for any length of time. I usually heat the water to a boil in the microwave, mix in the sugar, then maybe get it back to a boil (though sometimes I don't even bother). Pretty much everything is killed instantly at 212F.

Tap water is perfectly fine depending on what's in yours. I've always used tap water.

I also always rack to the bottling bucket first, then add the priming sugar solution, and stir it in very gently. I've never had any oxidation problems doing it this way. I do it that way because I'm not sure how much priming sugar I need until I rack it and see the actual volume. I guess I could make volume markings on all of my carboys, but I haven't ever taken the time.

 

[chickypad]

Oxygen is certainly the enemy of beer and can cause the hops to fade more quickly and the beer to stale, but you're saying within days the beer is getting rank? I'm not convinced that's oxidation. Buttery is diacetyl which can be from unhealthy yeast/fermentation, but vinegar plus buttery sounds like infection. I think pediococcus can cause diacetyl as well as souring. I'm with peterj on the one step, not sure I trust it to sanitize. Next time I would try cleaning with one step/oxiclean/PBW then sanitizing with starsan. Also how are you handling the muslin bag that you are dry hopping with? I rarely use bags for dry hopping but if I do I use nylon and soak them in star san. You may want to replace all plastic as well.

 

[derek8307]

Using the fast ferment conical fermenter, what is best method to bottle, in particular, adding priming sugar?

 

[IslandLizard]

+1 to all the above.

One-step is a "cleaner," not a sanitizer. And it should definitely be rinsed off the equipment and out of the bottles and tubes. Dip your finger in the working solution and taste. After cleaning and rinsing use a no-rinse sanitizer such as Starsan (I prefer that one), Iodophor, or IO Star.

 

[derek8307]

I use cotton muslin, boiled prior to placing in fermenter. Dry hopping for a week, and beer is superb after racking.

 

[chickypad]

All the more reason I'm betting on infection. I just can't believe anything else would take a beer from "superb" to "very off" with butter and vinegar in a matter of days. Hope you get it figured out.

 

[derek8307]

Well thank you all for the recommendations. I will pickup some starsan today and practice better racking. Any recommendations for adding priming sugar to my conical fermenter?

 

[peterj]

Well thank you all for the recommendations. I will pickup some starsan today and practice better racking. Any recommendations for adding priming sugar to my conical fermenter?

Can you drop all of the yeast and trub out? If so, do that then gently pour and mix the priming sugar in as you have been. If the yeast and trub is still in there then you need to rack to a bottling bucket before you mix the priming sugar (or you can rack on top of the priming sugar).

 

[bbohanon]

Great advice on this thread for bottling..when I bottled, my process was:

Day Before Bottling Day:
-Clean everything(bottles, hoses, etc.) I will be using with hot water mixed with some Oxy Clean, rinse well and dry (I usually did this the day before bottling day arrived).


Day of Bottling Day:
- Boil my priming sugar in the right amount of distilled water and then let it cool on the stove while I was setting up everything else to bottle.

- Soak ALL of my clean bottles in a bucket with Star San and place them in my fast racks or bottle tree to drain.

- Soak/submerge all caps in a dish of Star San.

- Soak all hoses, bottling valve, wand and anything else coming into contact with the beer during bottling in a bucket Star San for a minimum of 5 mins.

- Wash my own hands well and soak them in Star San for a min or 2 and then assemble the sanitized bottling bucket and hook up everything for bottling.

- Pour the sugar solution into a bottling bucket that is clean and has been sanitized with Star San(dont fear the foam!).

- Rack the beer quietly into the bottling bucket (as someone else said, right on top of the priming sugar water). I never stirred the beer after racking. Ever.

- Place sanitized bucket lid over the bottling bucket containing the racked beer to keep anything from floating into the beer while bottling.

- Bottle and cap.

- Place bottled beer into a room temp(70-77Deg) closet out of direct light for 2 weeks.

- Pull a bottle sample at 2 weeks. If its ready and carbed, toss it in the fridge and start enjoying.

Just what I did before I started kegging and it worked for me. I also only used tap water once. It turned out badly due to the quality of my tap water and I moved to distilled/RO water and its worked wonders for me and my beer.

 

[TheMadKing]

Do the off flavors mellow out after 3+ weeks? or do they continue to get worse?

Also, do you develop gushers/overcarbed beers?

EDIT: You can also measure your gravity at bottling, then after 2 weeks. If it drops significantly, its an infection. Just make sure you degas your carbed beer before taking the second reading.

 

[CBXBob]

My first suggestion would be to switch to bottled, or RO water, I use Crystal Geyser at about .88 cents a gallon. Most of the beer I make are hoppy ales, I've done the Morebeer Pliney The Elder kit 3 times now, tons of hops! And sooo good
I wash everything used at bottling time with plain dish soap, rinse well, then Star San everything for 5 minutes, and don't worry about the foam. Bottle caps, tubing, and wand in star san for 5 minutes. Used to soak bottles, now use a pump type sanitize injector, 3 squirts in bottle then on the tree.
I boil a cup of water with 4-5 ounces of corn sugar for 5 minutes, cover and let cool. I use a dedicated bucket for bottling, not my ferment buckets. I rack from the ferment bucket to the bottling bucket with the cooled sugar water in it. I don't stir. Then I hook up the bottling wand to the bucket spigot with a short piece of tubing, raise the bucket up on my keezer and begin bottling, capping as I go. No problems so far.
Also I use distilled water for my Star San mix and it stays clear and effective for months.
Don't be discouraged, you'll figure this out

 

[mrgrimm101]

According to good ol' Mr. John Palmer, buttery off-flavors is caused by diacetyl.

"Diacetyl is produced early in the fermentation cycle by the yeast and is gradually reassimilated towards the end of the fermentation. A brew that experiences a long lag time due to weak yeast or insufficient aeration will produce a lot of diacetyl before the main fermentation begins. In this case there is often more diacetyl than the yeast can consume at the end of fermentation and it can dominate the flavor of the beer."

How long do you let your beers bottle condition before opening to try one? How long was your lag time after pitching before the yeast started taking off? It can also be caused by premature racking and low fermenation temperatures. Did you give your batches any additional conditioning time in the primary before you bottled? Or did you bottle immediately after it hit its final gravity?

 

[Gavin C]

Isn't that already being discussed in this thread of yours?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=6999226#post6999226

 

[jekeane]

How long are you keeping your beer in primary? How are your washing/rinsing your bottles? What is your method for pitching your yeast (types and temperatures) and aeration of your wort?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

buttery flavor is like above diacetyl and can go away over time but its hard to get rid of completely, try fermenting at a low temperature and I mean very low like 60 and you wont get any flavors you don't want

 

[normonster]

Get an aeration system, fridge and temp controller and you're set.

 

[Spartan300man]

Make sure your bottle tree is sprayed with sanitizer too! I have used the inside of my dishwasher, right after running a cycle, and I spray the dishwasher rack with Star-San. I pull the bottles out of the Star-San buckete, and then place them on the sprayed rack to drip dry upside down, and start filling them quickly thereafter.
I have seen people on this board clean out their bottles, then put them into musty old cardboard cases. Old cardboard is a Petri Dish for infections.
I pulled apart my filling wand after my last filling session and was surprised to see some hop leaves that had gotten stuck in there.

 

[flars]

Lets concentrate on the last beer that was bad. Give us the recipe, yeast pitched and number of cells pitched, fermentation temperature, time in primary, and basic cleaning and sanitation procedure.

Maybe we can find something before your current three go bad.

 

[JordanKnudson]

I agree that "buttery" is THE word used to describe diacetyl, so fermentation practices/conditions would be to blame.

Another thing that I ran into early on in my brewing was that my water supply was no good. I'm not talking about this hyper-specific "my total magnesium is .5 ppm higher than ideal" stuff. I'm talking chemically treated, ruin-your-batch, bad brewing water. So where are you getting your water? Tap water is finicky sometimes. Purchasing distilled water and using that with your extract would sort out any water problems you might currently have, if any. The same concerns apply to any water that will go into the beer, whether it's your priming solution, or even the water you use to clean and sanitize (you don't necessarily need to use distilled for these parts, but you want to at least take into account what water you *are* using here). I wouldn't think that what you are describing above would come from a water issue, but it's best to ask and at least we can eliminate it as a possibility.

 

[derek8307]

Great advice on this thread for bottling..when I bottled, my process was:

Day Before Bottling Day:
-Clean everything(bottles, hoses, etc.) I will be using with hot water mixed with some Oxy Clean, rinse well and dry (I usually did this the day before bottling day arrived).


Day of Bottling Day:
- Boil my priming sugar in the right amount of distilled water and then let it cool on the stove while I was setting up everything else to bottle.

- Soak ALL of my clean bottles in a bucket with Star San and place them in my fast racks or bottle tree to drain.

- Soak/submerge all caps in a dish of Star San.

- Soak all hoses, bottling valve, wand and anything else coming into contact with the beer during bottling in a bucket Star San for a minimum of 5 mins.

- Wash my own hands well and soak them in Star San for a min or 2 and then assemble the sanitized bottling bucket and hook up everything for bottling.

- Pour the sugar solution into a bottling bucket that is clean and has been sanitized with Star San(dont fear the foam!).

- Rack the beer quietly into the bottling bucket (as someone else said, right on top of the priming sugar water). I never stirred the beer after racking. Ever.

- Place sanitized bucket lid over the bottling bucket containing the racked beer to keep anything from floating into the beer while bottling.

- Bottle and cap.

- Place bottled beer into a room temp(70-77Deg) closet out of direct light for 2 weeks.

- Pull a bottle sample at 2 weeks. If its ready and carbed, toss it in the fridge and start enjoying.

Just what I did before I started kegging and it worked for me. I also only used tap water once. It turned out badly due to the quality of my tap water and I moved to distilled/RO water and its worked wonders for me and my beer.

Can you please tell me what the flavor/aroma was like with the bad water you used?

 

[derek8307]

Any descriptions for what bad water does to beer? I'm switching to spring water asap

 

[derek8307]

Do the off flavors mellow out after 3+ weeks? or do they continue to get worse?

Also, do you develop gushers/overcarbed beers?

EDIT: You can also measure your gravity at bottling, then after 2 weeks. If it drops significantly, its an infection. Just make sure you degas your carbed beer before taking the second reading.

The flavors get a little worse I would say. Definitely don't mellow out. They may be a little overcarbed, but that could just be my impatience in getting some bottled before fully fermented. I tend to bottle right around 3 week mark. Earlier if I'm too anxious lol.

 

[bbohanon]

Any descriptions for what bad water does to beer? I'm switching to spring water asap

Depends on the makeup of the bad water..for me it was more of a muddy, harsh taste to the beer..I have very hard well water (North Carolina) and it has quite a bit of iron content in it. I have a household in-line water filter with a water softner and after 3 months when I pull the in-line filter to change it out, it looks like a turd its so dirty and brown.

If your on city tap water, it may be as simple as trying your hand at putting some campden tablets in your brew water before brew day to knock out the Chlorine/Chloromine the city usually treats their water with. Sometimes that is enough to get the water to a usable state.

I switched to store bought spring water back when I was 5 gallon extract brewing and the beer instantly was much better, cleaner, and crisper.

These days with me doing 10gal all grain batches, I swap out 4 of the big 5 gallon Primo water containers as its RO water and I build my own water profile with mineral additions.

To each his own however. I know that brewers in different parts of the country have well water that I would kill to have and is just shy of perfect for brewing right when it comes out of the ground. Thats just not the case here in the piedmont region of NC.