Help! My beers are terrible since moving to outdoor brewing

[Bradinator]

Hey guys and gals, been a while since I posted. Hope everyone is doing well! I am a bit stumped on what is causing my beers out so poorly since moving to outdoor brewing.

Quick history; I used to brew indoors, stove top, 4g AG BIAB batches and could get decent boils going. Made about 50ish batches doing it this way and the beers would end up being great and always consistent in quality. Last year we moved to a new home and I promised SWMBO to not brew indoors anymore if I could set myself up for outdoor brewing. Bought myself up with a decent propane burner and committed to brew during the summer months.

Every beer I have made outdoors has been poor to terrible. The best way to describe them is stale or stagnant with strong off putting twang to them I would expect from cheap LME, but not an AG.

I started troubleshooting it myself last summer and have come up with the following
• I don’t believe its oxidization; I thought maybe I had too much headspace (same equipment I used when I was indoor...) so I bought new plastics and fermenters. Even tried 7 days in the fermenter and bottle condition for 3 weeks. Similar results.
• I don’t believe its not my ingredients/recipes; using recipes from here, same place I always get my ingredients
• I don’t think its my equipment; I am using the same new equipment I am using for making ciders and graffs (winter time, too cold to brew outdoors) and they are turning out great and consistent.
• Its not infection; as above, recently started doing ciders successfully and never had any signs of an infection.
• I don’t believe its my process; its exactly the same as before except I now do it outdoors and get a much stronger boil going.

I am trying to think of anything else, but its been several months since I brewed due to the winter hiatus. I want to get back into it this summer again, but want to have a game plan to figure out or fix this problem with my brews.

Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[OdeCloner]

Water, IMO! Water will vary widely depending on where you are. Maybe you had good water at the old place, and it's not so good at the new place. Tons of info on here about controlling adjusting water. This is where I'd start.

 

[Bradinator]

Thanks! I hadn't considered that it may be the water, because I only moved about 5 minutes away by car. But now that you mention it; my ciders are fine and I dont need tap water for those (using organic store bought pressed cider as the base). You may be onto something!

I will read about tweaking water or even looking at getting a store bought supply for the next batch when it warms up.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Try your next batch with bottled water. Even if you don't plan to do any water adjustment (brewing salts, pH, adjustment, etc), you can buy returnable 5 gallon jugs of spring water at Lowes/Home Depot. I used to use that and it was fine. If you use that and everything else is that same, and your beer torns out good, you'll know it is the water.

Also, you can send a sample of your water for a brewery test to Ward Labs.

 

[mashinary]

I had a similar deal, and it turned out to be the water. I moved about 10 miles to a new neighborhood. After all the troubleshooting I realized that my former house must of had unicorn water or something.

I ordered a brewers water test from Ward Labs. I went over the super handy Bru'n Water spreadsheet and read up a bit.

 

[brewcat]

Where is the water coming from? Kitchen tap? Or garden hose?

 

[Gerry_P]

Here's the link to Calgary's water data from 2015, which looks like the most recent one. Sending in your own water is better, but I think this should be in the ballpark. Also, chlorine/chloromine in your water can make off flavors, but you can easily fix that with a pinch of crushed Campden tablet. I attached a shot of the user-reported water data for Calgary from Brewer's Friend, which gives you the relevant mineral profile numbers.

http://www.calgary.ca/UEP/Water/Pag...-quality-report/Water-Quality-Parameters.aspx

 

[IslandLizard]

^ Good points on the water quality!

How does your water taste to you? Is there chlorine or chloramines in it? All municipalities add one of those two.

I would start with brewing a batch using 100% RO or distilled water, not Spring Water. Your supermarket/Walmart may have an RO machine. $0.39 a gallon here. For all security, treat distilled water with 1/4 Campden Tablet per 5 gallons or a pinch of Potassium Metabisulfite, in case it contains chlorine as a preservative. Yes, they do that apparently.

Use Bru'nwater's (free) spreadsheet to add your mineral additions, and acid if needed. Don't go crazy with some historic water profile. Use a low mineral profile, or IIRC, adding 1 tsp of CaCl2 and 1/2 tsp CaSO4 is all you need plus a little acid (phosphoric, lactic) to get to a target mash pH of 5.4. Brew a simple, not very roasty/dark beer recipe such as a Pale Ale, Hoppy Amber, etc. Something you like and are familiar with, without a whole bunch of weird adjuncts and other stuff. It should come out clean and recognizable, and hopefully without the flaws you're experiencing. Use a fresh yeast pack for all security.

Other thoughts:
Any new equipment in your new line-up?
If you bought a new kettle, have you cleaned it thoroughly and passivated it?
You're not scorching your wort, are you, with that new high output burner? That would cause astringent, twangy, acrid, even scorched flavors.

 

[Bradinator]

Thanks everyone! If bottled water works I will use it for my next batch to see if it makes a difference it makes and let you know.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

^ Good points on the water quality!

How does your water taste to you? Is there chlorine or chloramines in it? All municipalities add one of those two.

I would start with brewing a batch using 100% RO or distilled water, not Spring Water. Your supermarket/Walmart may have an RO machine. $0.39 a gallon here. For all security, treat distilled water with 1/4 Campden Tablet per 5 gallons or a pinch of Potassium Metabisulfite, in case it contains chlorine as a preservative. Yes, they do that apparently.

Use Bru'nwater's (free) spreadsheet to add your mineral additions, and acid if needed. Don't go crazy with some historic water profile. Use a low mineral profile, or IIRC, adding 1 tsp of CaCl2 and 1/2 tsp CaSO4 is all you need plus a little acid (phosphoric, lactic) to get to a target mash pH of 5.4. Brew a simple, not very roasty/dark beer recipe such as a Pale Ale, Hoppy Amber, etc. Something you like and are familiar with, without a whole bunch of weird adjuncts and other stuff. It should come out clean and recognizable, and hopefully without the flaws you're experiencing. Use a fresh yeast pack for all security.

Other thoughts:
Any new equipment in your new line-up?
If you bought a new kettle, have you cleaned it thoroughly and passivated it?
You're not scorching your wort, are you, with that new high output burner? That would cause astringent, twangy, acrid, even scorched flavors.

Excellent advice, but I don't think he is ready to make the leap to water treatment yet, which is why I suggested regular bottled water, which while not ideal, will work and won't likely have any crazy amounts of ions that will screw anything up.

 

[IslandLizard]

Excellent advice, but I don't think he is ready to make the leap to water treatment yet, which is why I suggested regular bottled water, which while not ideal, will work and won't likely have any crazy amounts of ions that will screw anything up.

Spring water can be high in minerals, especially bicarbonates, all depending on the source or enrichments added for taste. High bicarbonates will play havoc with the mash pH, and sparge pH.
If the Spring water is low in minerals then yes, use that. But rarely do you find an analysis on those jugs.

Hence my suggestion for RO or distilled with minimal CaCl2 and CaSO4 additions, per the brewing water sticky.

 

[thekraken]

Your supermarket/Walmart may have an RO machine. $0.39 a gallon here. For all security, treat distilled water with 1/4 Campden Tablet per 5 gallons or a pinch of Potassium Metabisulfite, in case it contains chlorine as a preservative. Yes, they do that apparently.

Say what!? I didn't know that. I'll start treating my store bought RO water for chlorine then. Do the campden or potassium metabisulfite need to be accounted for in bru'n water?

Excellent advice, but I don't think he is ready to make the leap to water treatment yet, which is why I suggested regular bottled water, which while not ideal, will work and won't likely have any crazy amounts of ions that will screw anything up.

The water primer treatment recipes are simple enough, maybe try that with ro?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Spring water can be high in minerals, especially bicarbonates, all depending on the source or enrichments added for taste. High bicarbonates will play havoc with the mash pH, and sparge pH.
If the Spring water is low in minerals then yes, use that. But rarely do you find an analysis on those jugs.

Hence my suggestion for RO or distilled with minimal CaCl2 and CaSO4 additions, per the brewing water sticky.

The water primer treatment recipes are simple enough, maybe try that with ro?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

Agreed. No argument that RO or distilled with a little Gypsum and CaCl is easy enough. Very easy, in fact, and it's what I would do in his shoes. But it doesn't sound like he wants to mess with water treatment yet, and removing his water from the equation using almost any substitute will confirm or deny the suspicion that his water is the culprit.
Before I started doing water treatment, I have used 5 gallon jugs from Lowes with no issues. I think it's pretty soft water.

 

[IslandLizard]

Say what!? I didn't know that. I'll start treating my store bought RO water for chlorine then. Do the campden or potassium metabisulfite need to be accounted for in bru'n water?

The water primer treatment recipes are simple enough, maybe try that with ro?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

Relax, RO water directly from the machines is chlorine free. No need for Campden on those unless the membrane is kaput.

No need to account for that pinch of K-meta.

It's the "distilled" water in jugs that may contain chlorine or chloramines for longer shelf life. You can smell it as soon as you open it, first hand experience. That's the giveaway. But some people don't know what chlorine smells like... or better, what water isn't supposed to smell like.

Someone recommended (AJ perhaps), when buying RO water from the machines you should always check the last time it was serviced. If it's been a long time, that membrane could have issues. A cheap ($8-10) TDS meter will tell you quickly what's what.

 

[mongoose33]

I think Chlorine is handled by a carbon filter, not by the membrane...

 

[Bradinator]

I don't think I am ready to make the jump to water treatment as at this point I just want to figure out the problem. If it is the water I will look into it for sure, though I am not adverse to just buying my water either.

I really like the idea of using RO and just adding what I need to fit the style. I am sure I can get those from the home brew store here.

Other thoughts:
Any new equipment in your new line-up?
If you bought a new kettle, have you cleaned it thoroughly and passivated it?
You're not scorching your wort, are you, with that new high output burner? That would cause astringent, twangy, acrid, even scorched flavors.

My water tastes fine but I have lived here for a year now so I could be used to it and I don't remember if I thought it tasted funny when I first moved in.

No new equipment that I am not using for my ciders which are turning out good. Its the same pot I used back at my old place and I don't see any scorched wort on the bottom of the pot, though that could be a possibility.

Now I am all excited to get back into brewing this summer. Thanks again for the great advice all. I will post an update here once it warms up enough that I can start brewing outdoors again.

Cheers!

 

[trav77]

I don't think I am ready to make the jump to water treatment as at this point I just want to figure out the problem. If it is the water I will look into it for sure, though I am not adverse to just buying my water either.

I really like the idea of using RO and just adding what I need to fit the style. I am sure I can get those from the home brew store here.

Try this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

Very simple! Water treatment doesn't have to be daunting. This is a tried and true approach and will eliminate water as a variable if your beer still turns out crappy.

My water tastes fine but I have lived here for a year now so I could be used to it and I don't remember if I thought it tasted funny when I first moved in.

Water can taste fine but can turn out poor beer. Depends on ion content, buffering capacity, chlorine/chloramine, etc.

Now I am all excited to get back into brewing this summer. Thanks again for the great advice all. I will post an update here once it warms up enough that I can start brewing outdoors again.

You should move down here to the tropics!

 

[MaryB]

Never heard of or smelled chlorine in distilled water. I use distilled for my solar array batteries and it has to be pure. Chlorine would turn to gas as soon as it hit the acid and kill me. Distilled is pure water with nothing added.

 

[Bradinator]

Necro'ing my own thread. I finally got around to making an all grain batch using distilled water as the base.

I did my old BIAB process; 12lbs of grain, 4 gallons of water for mash. Managed to hold 153F for the entire mash. Sparged with 2 gallons of distilled water. Boiled for 6 minutes. Ended up with about 4.5 gallons of wort with a 1.050@15C.

For the water treatment I did 2g gypsum and 2g calcium carbonate in the 4G mash water. I forgot to buy sour malt so instead, doing some awkward math, figured 90ml of lemon juice should have enough citric acid to bring my PH to about 5.5 though I had no way of verifying this. My 2G of distilled sparge water had 1g gypsum and 1g calcium carbonate added. I should note I got the numbers for the gypsum and cal-carb from the EZ water spreadsheet, though I am not sure I used it right. It seemed close enough based off the stickied water treatment post (2.5g/2.5g per 5G).

All that said, I am not confident I got the PH correct as my mash efficiency seems very low. With 12lbs of grain around 4.5G of liquor per pitch it would appear I barely got 50%. Maybe I sparged to little? Its been over a year since I last brewed so I am honestly surprised how well everything went all things considered...

I should know what the final product is like within about 4-5 weeks and will post an update.

The recipe for those interested -
White "IPA" style
4lbs 2-row
4lbs pils
4lbs red fife wheat (given to me by a friend)
1g crushed coriander@60
0.5oz citra@60
1.0oz citra@10
0.5oz citra@flameout
Dry wheat ale yeast (w-06)

 

[Shwagger]

A water distribution quality fsctor:

When I briefly worked in water quality for the County here, we handled complaints about water in homes. One house in a block of 50 would get yellow or rusty or flakes or whatever in their line but no one else would. That's how different water can be from house to house.

 

[Bradinator]

Whelp, it was the water. This batch is the best I have made since moving. Thanks for everyones help!

 

[Moose_MI]

1 vote for sticky....

Yes, water matters...even great tasting water that is 5 minutes from the place you used to live

Know it..live it...love it....

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Do you detect any flavor contribution from the lemon juice that you used for mash pH control? This is the first time I've ever heard of anyone using lemon juice (although it's probably mainly citric acid, and I've heard of using that). Was it fresh squeeze or concentrated? Did you measure your mash pH?

Glad to hear that it turned out great!!!