Help me understand gypsum in an IPA?

[TennBrewer]

How do you check mash pH? It's really suspect that all of your readings are "5.8" regardless of grainbill or water, so I suspect that your pH meter is at fault.

I got a water report a couple of weeks ago which showed my water pH at 7.9 so I got out my meter and checked the water. The meter drifted between 7.92 and 7.93 which is close enough for me.

 

[mabrungard]

Why is hardness a great thing in an IPA? As long as you have enough calcium (arguably) then hardness is not desirable in any style, especially if it comes in the form of Magnesium.

I agree that additional hardness is not necessary, but we are caught between a rock and a hard place. We want that high sulfate and it is best delivered with calcium and magnesium salts.

Don't be too hard on Magnesium. In a bittered beer like IPA, Mg is actually a very desirable component. We just need to respect its upper limit. 20 to 30 ppm Mg along with the sulfate when delivered via Epsom Salt is a pretty good way to deliver on both counts. Matt Chrispen just sent me some trials that he and some friends conducted with mineral-spiked beer that included a somewhat surprising conclusion that the elevated MgSO4 sample was preferred. Of course, the Mg level was still modest at around 30 ppm. Those of you with high Mg tap water, need to avoid adding any more Mg since your water could easily exceed that 40 ppm level where its flavor can be negative in beer.

 

[RichBenn]

Whether the beer has a bunch of bittering hops thrown in is not a factor. What defines ANY American IPA is the amount of late hops thrown in!

While I agree with you, there is little in the BJCP guidelines about late hops. In fact, looking over the list of IPAs that are referenced for 14B American IPA, many have too much harsh bitterness that masks the hop flavors, IMHO, at least compared to the current "best of breed" West Coast IPAs. It's like thinking that great Mexican food is how much your mouth burns and for how long, vs. layers of chili flavors. Of course, the state of the art moves on, and what was previously a great beer is now considered good.

Of course my taste buds have shifted over the years, as well, so maybe it's that.

I've done Two Hearted several times and haven't been disappointed by any of my efforts, but since adding more gypsum and actually mashing lower, I found it tasted better to me, even with a bit of Crystal. I think mashing higher only created too much body (Or my tastes in IPAs have shifted a bit.)

I mentioned this, but perhaps not totally clear that I perceive the yeast Bell's uses vs. west coast yeast has a big impact with mouth feel and lack of dryness. More than I've noticed with yeast variations on other IPAs. Haven't done any more than yeast comparison with Two Hearted, though, as I don't find it compelling enough of a base recipe to spend too much time on. Certainly experimenting with a single hop(Centennial) recipe better highlights the differences on hop character, so it's great to hear your experiences with the water changes and mash temps.

 

[Yooper]

Thx for the reply, I respect your advice as well as many others, I'm sure. It may very well be the meter, although there is one time a while back I used it for a batch in which I used the 5.2 pH Stabilizer product and the mash pH measured on this meter was 5.4. Others have commented on the use of this product being ineffective, but it lowered the pH in that instance but left the resulting beer with kind of a salty taste, could be from Sodium or Potassium (not going to use that stuff anymore). I use the BIAB method and mash in the boil kettle. At the end of the mash period, I take a small sample and cool it to room temp (~68), then immerse the meter probe and wait a couple o' minutes or so until the reading appears stable. I calibrated the meter according to the manufacturer's instructions (Etekcity 2011) and the supplied 4 and 7 solutions (at 68 degrees) when I first got the meter a couple of months ago. Unfortunately, I mistakenly discarded the solutions so I haven't recalibrated since then. When I start the mashing, I usually remove the protective cap and let the meter sit in distilled water before I use it. I shake the water off and immerse it into the cooled wort. Amazon reviews are mixed, they either love it or hate it. No matter, I plan on replacing it with the Milwaukee MW102 which was often referred to in this venue and highly rated. Thank you for taking the time to help me with my dilemma.

Without calibration, I would blame the meter. It's simply not possible that no matter what the grainbill or water that your mash pH is always 5.8. Meters should be calibrated at each brewday, and not just once. Even then, a cheaper meter can "drift" and should be checked in the buffer even during the brewday if this is suspected.

Without a properly calibrated meter, the pH reading is useless I"m afraid.

When I use bru'nwater, my predicted mash pH is usually pretty close to the actual.

 

[VegasBrew1]

Thanks for the reply. Newb to water chemistry that I am, I forgot I can add the recommended CaCl and Gypsum and just lower my addition of lactic acid. Problem solved.

 

[Ryat66]

I am trying not to hijack but...

I found this thread while researching why my brew house efficiency shoots through the roof on hoppy styles, the latest just happens to be a Bell's TH clone. I really like the specific discussion here on gypsum and it's effects.

I have run through just about every other factor I can think of: crush, grain potential, improper recipe scaling, sparge technique, etc. You might think it's odd that I point that out but after going back through my previous twelve brews, the three that have ridiculously high efficiency were two pale ales and an IPA, all dosed with copious amounts of gypsum. Just for background...I use RO (my muni tap water is WAY too variable to rely on) and Bru'n Water to create my water profiles.

Is there any validity to my thoughts here?

 

[pdxal]

Hijack or not your observations make a lot of sense.
Mash pH is probably being put into more optimal range with your light/hoppy styles with addition of gypsum to enhance the hop perception. I'd be curious about the (true) composition of your RO water if there is such a major effect when already using Bru'n Water, though.
Here are a couple of references regarding mash pH and the effect on mash efficiency:

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/residual-alkalinity-and-mash-ph
http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/05/07/mash-ph-and-why-it-matters-for-all-grain-beer-brewing/

 

[Ryat66]

Hijack or not your observations make a lot of sense.
Mash pH is probably being put into more optimal range with your light/hoppy styles with addition of gypsum to enhance the hop perception. I'd be curious about the (true) composition of your RO water if there is such a major effect when already using Bru'n Water, though.
Here are a couple of references regarding mash pH and the effect on mash efficiency:

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/residual-alkalinity-and-mash-ph
http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/05/07/mash-ph-and-why-it-matters-for-all-grain-beer-brewing/

Thanks for the reply.

So, my RO comes from one of those grocery store machines. I pick it up in 5 gallon PET bottles for easy transport. I have checked with the supplier several times and receive the same answer each time "the delivered product has undetectable levels of minerals and ions," they seem very confident in their product. I will also point out that the screen on front of the machine gives service history and it's always up to date. Now, having said that, I wonder what "undetectable" actually means because surely it's not as pure as distilled. Right?

One thing that I'm working on is a pH meter (it was on my Christmas list to the wife). Obviously, without it we are guessing to some extent. However, I think it's well documented that Martin's spreadsheet is extremely accurate.

However, lets keep this conversation going, I love talking about this stuff!

 

[orangehero]

You can buy a cheap TDS meter that will give you some idea of the actual purity of the water.

 

[pdxal]

Perhaps Martin will chime in here.
It would appear, regardless of base water, gypsum addition boosts efficiency, likely by better acidification of mash. Light colored malts don't lower pH as much as darker malts, are the lower efficiency beers light color but without gypsum? Stouts and such with lots of roasted or crystal malts would tend to drive mash pH down and shouldn't be lower efficiency if the gypsum is indeed improving mash pH if I am understanding things correctly. Made any stouts with low efficiency?