Help in pinpointing this off-flavor

[HossTheGreat]

I've noticed in that in my lighter AG beers (pales, blonde's, etc), I get a pretty profound "grainy" aftertaste. I recently brewed an AG Amber, an AG American Brown, and an extract California Common and none have had the grainy taste.

I've read about all of the common issues with mash temps and water, but I'm not so sure it's the issue. I filter my water, plus add 5.2 to the mash. I also generally keep the mash in the mid 150's. My fermentation is also kept at a steady temp....generally in the mid 60's (I tape the temp probe to the side of the carboy and insulate it with some bubble wrap as to get an accurate reading of the fermentation temp).

My last pale ale, I used MO instead of 2 row. I know that lends more of a biscuity flavor to the beer, but I don't know if that's what I'm tasting or not. The grainy aftertaste pretty much covers up any of the hop flavors in the beer.

The only other culprit that I can think of is my grain crush. I have read where tannins could contribute to this flavor. I use a corona style grain mill and generally crush pretty fine since I use BIAB and don't have to worry about stuck mashes. However, I've also read many others crush very very fine and have never had a tannin issue.

Just looking for some suggestions on how i can track down what's causing this flavor. Thanks!

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

"Grainy" definitely comes from the mash - it won't come from the boil (unless you get grain in there!).

I'm thinking scorched grain for some reason. What mash/system are you using?

M_C

 

[Revvy]

All the beers that I have tasted that had a grainy flavor were just "green," too young, and that smoothed out in a couple of weeks of conditioning. How long are you waiting for the beer to carb and condition before drinking, and does this "flavor" go away/mellow with time?

 

[Golddiggie]

How long do you let your brews stay on the yeast, in primary??

 

[BigEd]

I filter my water, plus add 5.2 to the mash.

A water profile and your specific recipes would be helpful in offering suggestions. The use of 5.2 product does nothing to alter needed brewing ions in your water and if your water is lacking calcium, for instance, you're going to have problems regardless of what the pH is.

 

[HossTheGreat]

Thanks for the response everyone!

"Grainy" definitely comes from the mash - it won't come from the boil (unless you get grain in there!).

I'm thinking scorched grain for some reason. What mash/system are you using?
M_C

Can't think of how any of the grain would be scorched. I do true BIAB and mash with the full volume of water needed for the batch. I then fire up the burner and do a mash out for 10 min. After that, I pull the bag and boil for 60 min. I don't boil too vigorously.

All the beers that I have tasted that had a grainy flavor were just "green," too young, and that smoothed out in a couple of weeks of conditioning. How long are you waiting for the beer to carb and condition before drinking, and does this "flavor" go away/mellow with time?

They do tend to mellow with time, but it's not with all of my beers. Just the lighter ones. Perhaps it's just less flavor for the "graininess" to hide behind. I just don't really seem to hear a lot of people talking about a grainy flavor, so I figured it was something with my process, as opposed to it being green.

How long do you let your brews stay on the yeast, in primary??

Generally 3 to 4 weeks. I never go to secondary unless I'm lagering or adding fruit.

A water profile and your specific recipes would be helpful in offering suggestions. The use of 5.2 product does nothing to alter needed brewing ions in your water and if your water is lacking calcium, for instance, you're going to have problems regardless of what the pH is.

I have a copy of our water quality report, but it seems to only list potential contaminants. I don't see anything listed about calcium levels, but I suppose that I can email our water production manager to get specifics. I do have some info on the PH range of our water, if this helps at all. If not, what specific information should I request from them? (I wasn't very good in HS Chemistry )

The EPA (through the Georgia EPD) requires only a limited number of analytes to be included in the Water Quality Reports and pH is not among them. The allowable range of pH on finished water is 6.0 to 8.5 standard units (with pH of 7.0 as neutral - neither acidic or alkaline). We perform the pH testing on our finished water hourly and we generally keep our finished pH in the 6.8 to 7.2 range.

 

[BigEd]

I have a copy of our water quality report, but it seems to only list potential contaminants. I don't see anything listed about calcium levels, but I suppose that I can email our water production manager to get specifics. I do have some info on the PH range of our water, if this helps at all. If not, what specific information should I request from them? (I wasn't very good in HS Chemistry )

That report is only a water quality report which just tells customers that the water is safe to drink. If you review the Stickys and related posts in the Brew Science section here you will see what you need to know about your water. BTW the pH of your water is pretty much irrelevant, it's the pH of the mash that's important.

 

[robtotten]

If your grain is crushed really fine, maybe some of it is escaping the bag and being boiled. Darker / roasted malts could mask the off flavor. Just a thought.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

Have you tried not doing a mash-out and see if that makes a difference? I've never mashed out in my regular beers (unless there's a specific reason).

Worth a shot.

M_C

 

[HossTheGreat]

Have you tried not doing a mash-out and see if that makes a difference? I've never mashed out in my regular beers (unless there's a specific reason).

Worth a shot.

M_C

Yes, I failed to mention in my last post that before I began doing BIAB, I was doing the cooler/batch sparge method. I had the same results then The only reason I do a mashout in BIAB is to improve efficiency. I'll see if I can get a copy of my water profile report and also tweak my grain crush to see if it helps.

 

[winvarin]

On the lighter beers, what are you using as your base malt? I recently made a blonde that I did not care for as much as a previous version of the same beer. I compared notes on the two and the only difference was that I used plain American 2 row for the version I liked best and pilsner malt for the one that I didn't care for as much.

My notes also pointed out a pronounced "graininess" that I didn't care for about the second blonde.

Going back through my notes on a couple of Belgian beers I'd brewed over the year that I'd noticed a "graininess". In almost every case, the beer had a moderate to high % of pilsner malt in the grain bill.

Standard disclaimer - I am not a scientist and on some days feel I am barely a brewer. All examples are from my personal experience with absolutely no empirical evidence to back them up. Your mileage may, and probably will, vary.

 

[HossTheGreat]

On the lighter beers, what are you using as your base malt? I recently made a blonde that I did not care for as much as a previous version of the same beer. I compared notes on the two and the only difference was that I used plain American 2 row for the version I liked best and pilsner malt for the one that I didn't care for as much.

My notes also pointed out a pronounced "graininess" that I didn't care for about the second blonde.

Going back through my notes on a couple of Belgian beers I'd brewed over the year that I'd noticed a "graininess". In almost every case, the beer had a moderate to high % of pilsner malt in the grain bill.

Standard disclaimer - I am not a scientist and on some days feel I am barely a brewer. All examples are from my personal experience with absolutely no empirical evidence to back them up. Your mileage may, and probably will, vary.

I only use either standard American 2 row or Marris Otter for my base malt. I haven't used pilsner in a long time. This most recent pale ale that I brewed (EdWort's Haus), I ended up using MO. I know that tends to lend a more biscuity flavor, but I don't thank that's what I'm picking up.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

If the flavor goes away that suggests that you have standard off flavors from drinking the beer too young. It's easier to notice off flavors in a beer without dark grains/fruit/lots of hops because there's less to mask the off flavors.

If the flavor does not go away then may be a mash issue in which the darker grains are adding acidity to the mash and correcting the pH while the lighter beers do not have anything to help lower the mash. It could also be an issue with chlorine if you are using tap water.

 

[winvarin]

If the flavor goes away that suggests that you have standard off flavors from drinking the beer too young. It's easier to notice off flavors in a beer without dark grains/fruit/lots of hops because there's less to mask the off flavors.

If the flavor does not go away then may be a mash issue in which the darker grains are adding acidity to the mash and correcting the pH while the lighter beers do not have anything to help lower the mash. It could also be an issue with chlorine if you are using tap water.

Alkalinity could very well be an issue if the flavors are persistent. I know it sounds odd, but one of the guys in the Brew Science forum gave me a good, simple demonstration to try when I asked him what sort of flavor I would pick up from my highly alkaline water.

He had me dissolve a small amount of baking soda in a glass of water and take a sip. I almost immediately recognize that as an off flavor I had been picking up in some of my lighter beers. I immediately became a convert of cutting my water with RO, adding brewing salts as appropriate, and balancing some of my lighter beers with a few ounces of acidulated malt.

Why didn't I think of that in the first place? I can't say that I ever described the highly alkaline beers as "grainy" but it's definitely a distinctive flavor once you know what you're looking for.

 

[kanzimonson]

It could be oxidation. It took me awhile to realize that the "grainy, husk-like, overly toasted" flavor I was getting from a lot of light European beers was what most people call the "cardboard" flavor of oxidation.

That was quite the epiphany for me - and here I thought that I hated light lagers because they were too grainy.

 

[HossTheGreat]

I sent an email off to our water production manager here in the county. Here's the info he was able to provide in case this helps.

Finished water pH – 6.8 to 7.0
Finished water Hardness - <50 mg/l
Finished water alkalinity &#8211; 12-18 mg/l

He also emailed me a copy of the latest chemical test report. Not sure if this gives enough info or not. Link Here

 

[Kugster]

Alkalinity could very well be an issue if the flavors are persistent. I know it sounds odd, but one of the guys in the Brew Science forum gave me a good, simple demonstration to try when I asked him what sort of flavor I would pick up from my highly alkaline water.

He had me dissolve a small amount of baking soda in a glass of water and take a sip. I almost immediately recognize that as an off flavor I had been picking up in some of my lighter beers. I immediately became a convert of cutting my water with RO, adding brewing salts as appropriate, and balancing some of my lighter beers with a few ounces of acidulated malt.

Why didn't I think of that in the first place? I can't say that I ever described the highly alkaline beers as "grainy" but it's definitely a distinctive flavor once you know what you're looking for.

Very interesting, I will have to "attempt this at home"

It could be oxidation. It took me awhile to realize that the "grainy, husk-like, overly toasted" flavor I was getting from a lot of light European beers was what most people call the "cardboard" flavor of oxidation.

I thought the same before,having a similar issue a few years back but reading Palmer's book, this is what he contributes it too...

"Husky / Grainy
These flavors are akin to the astringent flavors produced from the grain husks. These flavors are more evident in all-grain beers due to poor grain crushing or sparging practices. If the grain husks are shredded during crushing by the use of a Corona grain mill for instance, these husk flavors are more likely to be extracted during the sparge. Follow the same procedures recommended to prevent astringency to correct the problem.

Grainy flavors can also be contributed by highly toasted malts. If you are making your own toasted malts, allow them to age at least two weeks after crushing so the harsher aromatic compounds can dissipate. Cold conditioning the beer for a month or two will often cause these harsh compounds to settle out with the yeast."

And you did mention the same grain mill...

That was quite the epiphany for me - and here I thought that I hated light lagers because they were too grainy.

LMAO!! ...not cause they were light tho....!

Hope this helps! Rock On:rockin:

 

[HossTheGreat]

Alkalinity could very well be an issue if the flavors are persistent. I know it sounds odd, but one of the guys in the Brew Science forum gave me a good, simple demonstration to try when I asked him what sort of flavor I would pick up from my highly alkaline water.

He had me dissolve a small amount of baking soda in a glass of water and take a sip. I almost immediately recognize that as an off flavor I had been picking up in some of my lighter beers. I immediately became a convert of cutting my water with RO, adding brewing salts as appropriate, and balancing some of my lighter beers with a few ounces of acidulated malt.

Why didn't I think of that in the first place? I can't say that I ever described the highly alkaline beers as "grainy" but it's definitely a distinctive flavor once you know what you're looking for.

Tried this technique just now....it's certainly doesn't seem to be the flavor that I'm detecting in my beers. Thanks for the tip!

Very interesting, I will have to "attempt this at home"



I thought the same before,having a similar issue a few years back but reading Palmer's book, this is what he contributes it too...

"Husky / Grainy
These flavors are akin to the astringent flavors produced from the grain husks. These flavors are more evident in all-grain beers due to poor grain crushing or sparging practices. If the grain husks are shredded during crushing by the use of a Corona grain mill for instance, these husk flavors are more likely to be extracted during the sparge. Follow the same procedures recommended to prevent astringency to correct the problem.

Grainy flavors can also be contributed by highly toasted malts. If you are making your own toasted malts, allow them to age at least two weeks after crushing so the harsher aromatic compounds can dissipate. Cold conditioning the beer for a month or two will often cause these harsh compounds to settle out with the yeast."

And you did mention the same grain mill...




LMAO!! ...not cause they were light tho....!

Hope this helps! Rock On:rockin:

I think I'm going to dial back the fineness of my crush for the next batch to see if it improves any.

As it turns out, I'm also having an issue with my kegging system and had to order some new parts. This will allow my beer to sit in the keg, carbed up for an extra week and a half or so...when I get everything hooked back up, I'll taste again and see if the graininess has subsided any.

 

[HossTheGreat]

Just a follow up, after a couple of weeks in the keg at serving temps the "grainy" flavor is still pretty pronounced. It doesn't seem to have subsided at all. I really think this has something to do with my crush now. As I stated before, I use a corona style mill, but I believe the drill I'm using is running at way too high of an RPM. It's a single speed 1200rpm and I'm getting quite a bit of "flour" in the crush. I'm now thinking that this may be the issue. My next batch, I'm going to brew up another pale ale, but this time use the hand crank to see if the off-flavor goes away.

 

[bullinachinashop]

My first thought would be the crush. Second, the water profile.

would have the grains properly crushed with a different mill and then make sure not to over-sparge.

Are you adjusting the water?

Bull

 

[HossTheGreat]

My first thought would be the crush. Second, the water profile.

would have the grains properly crushed with a different mill and then make sure not to over-sparge.

Are you adjusting the water?

Bull

Thanks for the reply Bull. The oversparge isn't an issue since I do a full volume BIAB (I did get the same flavor when batch sparging too thought). I am running my water through a carbon filter and then adding 5.2 to the mash. I posted what I know about my water in post #16 on this thread, but I haven't had any feedback on it yet so I don't know if there are further adjustments that I need to make. Also, one other observation that I made tonight is that the "grainyness" isn't just in the flavor, but in the aroma too.

 

[bullinachinashop]

A carbon filter will remove chlorine and heavy particulate, but there are many things other than what you posted in 16 that will affect(effect) your water profile.

Check out ezwatercalculator.com

Bull

 

[HossTheGreat]

A carbon filter will remove chlorine and heavy particulate, but there are many things other than what you posted in 16 that will affect(effect) your water profile.

Check out ezwatercalculator.com

Bull

Thanks I will check it out. I'm going to start my modifying my crush first. Since I didn't detect the flavor in a recent extract batch I did that makes me even more suspicious of the crush.

 

[bullinachinashop]

The Corona mill, even run at slower speeds is suspect.

I would slow it down to 150-200 rpm and the look at it carefully. You should have broken husks and cracked endosperm.

If your hulls are shredded at all, you may need to slow it down further.

You will be better off running it through twice at a slow speed to get a finer crush. The first time will break the hull and the second will break the endosperm down further without shreading the hull.

Bull

 

[HossTheGreat]

The Corona mill, even run at slower speeds is suspect.

I would slow it down to 150-200 rpm and the look at it carefully. You should have broken husks and cracked endosperm.

If your hulls are shredded at all, you may need to slow it down further.

You will be better off running it through twice at a slow speed to get a finer crush. The first time will break the hull and the second will break the endosperm down further without shreading the hull.

Bull

Yeah, I think I'm going to hook up the old hand crank and give it a shot. I've also got $60 left from a gift certificate to Brewmasters Warehouse, so this could be a good time to pick up that Barley Crusher.

 

[bullinachinashop]

I like the Monster Mills. I have a mm2 with 2 inch ss rollers.

I'm sure either will do a fine job.

Bull

 

[HossTheGreat]

Ok, so just an update. I went ahead and picked up the crankandstein. I used the default gap setting and crushed slowly. I went ahead and brewed another pale ale. After letting it primary for 3 weeks, then another 2 weeks in a corny, I am still picking up some of the same flavors. However, it is no where near as bad as it was in my previous batch. So, now I'm wondering if it could be my bag. I use a coarse mesh bag, not the voile material that most BIAB brewers use. From what I've read voile is much finer. I'm wondering if my bag is letting too much stuff in the boil, causing this off flavor. I'm going to pick up some voile and give it a try.

Now, here's a second thing. I've been researching a bit more tonight and am now wondering if the flavor I'm picking up could actually be DMS. Of course, I boil without the lid on. However after my mash, I have been putting a lid on the kettle until close to boiling to help get it boiling faster. But here's the even bigger thing. Immediately after flame out, I have been covering my kettle with a lid and firing up my immersion chiller. After reading about this tonight, I have found that I could most certainly be picking up DMS after the boil. If this is the case, I will feel so dumb for making such a novice mistake.

So the next beer I make, it will be another light one. Perhaps another pale or even a blonde. I will switch to the voile, plus leave the lid off after the mash and while chilling to see if it helps. I'll report back my findings.

 

[kanzimonson]

A lot of people do similar things with their lid... especially after the boil. You don't want it exposed to the air while you're chilling.

 

[HossTheGreat]

A lot of people do similar things with their lid... especially after the boil. You don't want it exposed to the air while you're chilling.

What I think I might do is leave it uncovered until I get it below 160 or so, then put the lid on it.

 

[StMarcos]

I'm not necessarily sure why it happened, but I made a 'helles' years ago, using RODI water with no mineral additions. This was before I understood brewing water chemistry. The beer came out incredibly grainy/starchy. All pils malt. The beer never cleared, and was thin and insipid. So, the pH was obviously too high (pretty sure I wasn't adding lactic back then) and there was NO Ca. So one or both of these made the beer grainy. It had a kolsch-y graininess that I've detected in several microbrewed versions of kolsch, only more so. BTW I don't really like kolsch (that I've had anyway).

Don't trust 5.2 to do what it says it is supposed to do.