Help deciding what to do for water profiles and source

[SHAIV]

Hey so ive been researching water profiles and adjusting water. My last beer i brewed i started with distilled and built my water from that with brewers friend software. Ill probably use bru’n water next time though. Its more detailed. Anyway im interested in skipping the step of going to walmart to get distilled water and using my home water for a source. Ive got a carbon filter for a refrigerator that i could probably rig up under my sink and use it strictly fir brew water. Or i have a friend that will give me an out of service RO filter system that i might could use for brewing. I dont really want to fork over 42$ for ward labs test at this time. I know, im cheap lol. If i have to i may end up doing that eventually but not right now. I emailed my city water supply and i got some info on my water. It seems a harsh to drink to me so ive never used it for brewing before. I know i would have to get rid of the chlorine first at least but i got this info on my water. I believe i got a few water inputs but i may be missing a few. Heres the info i got

I think i have PH, calcium, sodium, and maybe one more.
Is there anything im missing? Is there something here that is renamed or something? Like hardness is calcium right? Or wrong?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Based upon your hardness, I'm guessing your calcium ion is ballpark 11 mg/L (ppm), and your Magnesium ion is ballpark 2 mg/L (ppm).

No idea as to your chloride or sulfate ion levels, other than that they will likely be in the upper single mg/L (ppm) digits. A pure first guess would be 8 ppm for each, but they could range from zero for one to 15-20 for the other....

Use Campden tablets to get rid of your nasty chlorine.

 

[SHAIV]

Thank you for your help. I also wonder if i got a TDS meter if that would help? And if i filter the water will the numbers change?

 

[Dgallo]

I honestly would get it tested. Then you have the recent water report. The town will provide you with the best report they have compiled based on drinking water. If you test it yourself through ward labs or any local one you have it will be more accurate in my opinion. Then a 1/4 of a Camden tab to eliminate the chlorine and you’re ready to go

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I honestly would get it tested. Then you have the recent water report. The town will provide you with the best report they have compiled based on drinking water. If you test it yourself through ward labs or any local one you have it will be more accurate in my opinion. Then a 1/4 of a Camden tab to eliminate the chlorine and you’re ready to go

In this case I believe he has sufficient information to forego the cost and effort of having it spot tested. The ion ppm values are all low enough to not have significant impact upon any desired water profile that one might wish to build out of (or upon) it.

We have a decent way to determine calcium and magnesium based upon this formula:
Total Hardness = 2.5*Ca + 4.12*Mg
Wherein my 'educated' guess of 11 ppm Ca++ and 2 ppm Mg++ works out to:
2.5*11 + 4.12*2 = 35.74 ppm of total hardness (vs. the reported 36 ppm)

And because we also are given the alkalinity at 29 ppm and the sodium at 6.3 ppm, we can relatively confidently know that chloride and sulfate ions are quite low (and within the ranges I stated in my post above) simply from balancing cations and anions.

Therefore, there does not seem to be much that can be gained from having it tested.

 

[Dgallo]

In this case I believe he has sufficient information to forego the cost and effort of having it spot tested. The ion ppm values are all low enough to not have significant impact upon any desired water profile that one might wish to build out of (or upon) it.

I buddy in my neighborhood got our water tested and many of my ppm were 20 off from what my town report claimed. NA being one that was off by like 30 ppm. The ph was also off by 1.4 though I know this can contantly change. To each their own though, I’m just coming from experience with the town report varying but again this could be very town specific. Some towns may be better at updating their reports than others

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I buddy in my neighborhood got our water tested and many of my ppm were 20 off from what my town report claimed. NA being one that was off by like 30 ppm. The ph was also off by 1.4 though I know this can contantly change. To each their own though, I’m just coming from experience with the town report varying but again this could be very town specific. Some towns may be better at updating their reports than others

It depends upon whether or not the utility is single sourced as to its water supply, or multi-sourced. For the former case they should be providing decent analyticals for their water, and for the latter case they are merely reporting averages across multiple sources, and/or blends of sources. For the latter case, if you have it analyzed, you are merely "spot" checking, and on any given day you still have no idea as to whether they are still sourcing or blending precisely as was the case for when you "spot" grabbed your sample.

 

[SHAIV]

Wow this is a lot of good info guys thank you. Ill probably have to read this many times to understand it. Lol. So the handwritten water report there was taken from my area. They asked for my address to get the sample from the correct pipe or something. So it should be pretty accurate. I also deliver to a pool store that told me they can test my water for ph calcium alkalinity and hardness and maybe something else for free. So i could potentially be able to make some good numbers from all that. Ill be getting a sample tonight to bring to work with me tomorrow! I still might not be able to get magnesium but maybe i can use that formula above to get it if thats the only thing ill be missing i should be able to get it pretty accurate right?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I still might not be able to get magnesium but maybe i can use that formula above to get it if thats the only thing ill be missing i should be able to get it pretty accurate right?

Yes

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If you cant source magnesium, simply ignore it. In fact, many if not most would advise to ignore it even if you have a ready source for it.

 

[SHAIV]

Ok i just got my water tested at the pool store. Its pretty much the same thing i already have but this actually came from my faucet.

So basically it says calcium hardness but that isnt just straight calcium right? Its like calcium chloride right?

So i put my estimated numbers in bru’n water this morning i used

Calcium. 11
Magnesium 2
Sulfate 8
Sodium 6.3
Chloride 8
Alkalinity 29
PH. 8.47 which i will now change to 8.3

Think thats a good starting point?

So i then entered in my grains for my american wheat ale that im going to brew next weekend and chose a balanced target profile. I added 1 gram per gallon gypsum and 1 gram per gal of calcium chloride and it balanced the mash ph. That sound right?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

@SHAIV without knowing the type and weights of the grains in your recipe we'd be guessing. The amount of water used in the mash and batch size would be needed too.

 

[SHAIV]

Ok itd be 7.7 gallons strike water. 7.9 gallons sparge water. 23 lbs of grain for a 10 gallon batch with a 12 gallon pre boil volume. 12 lbs of 2 row, 10 lbs of white wheat(3.1 L) and 1 lb of caramel 20

So i input that into bru’n water and it seems 7.7 grams of gypsum and 7.7 grams of calcium chloride balanced out the mash ph

 

[SHAIV]

I guess i still need to balance the ions? Or just get the mash ph to around 5.3?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Generally it goes this way: Initially chloride and/or sulfate ions are added (via primarily calcium based minerals such as CaCl2 and CaSO4) for their flavor and mouthfeel characteristics and their impact upon ones perception of bittering (and not primarily for pH adjustment). Subsequently, post mineralization, an acid or base is added to achieve the target mash pH.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I guess i still need to balance the ions? Or just get the mash ph to around 5.3?

The generally accepted 5.2 to 5.6 mash pH range makes 5.4 the midpoint. Beyond that it's been stated the lower end of the range is suitable for a crisper beer, the midpoint for light colored beer and the upper end for darker beer.

In my experience that's more of a guideline and not a hard fast rule to follow. Thanks to lactic acid the batch of Belgian Witbier I'm drinking now had a mash pH of 4.97 and it's one of the best I've brewed in years.

 

[SHAIV]

So how come i put everything in brewers friend water chemistry calculator and in bru’n water and get totally different numbers. I mean the grains get input into bru’n water but other than that why would it be so different?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So how come i put everything in brewers friend water chemistry calculator and in bru’n water and get totally different numbers. I mean the grains get input into bru’n water but other than that why would it be so different?

You will need to ask this of their respective developers. But they will need specific input details.

Brewers Friend is actually three different calculators. One is based upon grain type (or classification) and grain Lovibond color. One is based upon each grains DI_pH value, and one is based upon only the beers final SRM color and the percentage of that SRM color which came from specifically "deep roasted" grains. Which method did you employ?

 

[SHAIV]

I didnt input the grains into brewers friend. I dont see where thats an option. I used the advanced water chemistry calculator. I balanced the ions for a balanced water profile and the i put in those numbers at bru’n water and the final water ion output is way different

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm only speculating here, but it could be that Brewer's Friend always presumes that your CaCl2 is in the dihydrate state, and I believe that the free version of Bru'n Water likely presumes that it is in the anhydride state (though don't quote me as gospel on this, ask both developers). If I'm correct, the first (BF) is presuming CaCl2.2H20 with roughly 75.5% CaCl2 and 24.5% water, and the second (BW) is presuming 100% CaCl2 (which is nigh on impossible to acquire). CaCl2 absorbs water from the humidity in the air continuously, so its water content is always rising. Right out of the bottle or bag it is likely 94-95% and its purity goes down hill from there with each subsequent exposure to air.

That said, you need to find software that you can use and understand. Minerals in water are not all that there is to adjusting mash pH. For Brewer's Friend you should be using this application web link (which allows for three different forms of data input, albeit that sadly they each give wildly different mash pH prediction results for most cases in my experience):
https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

I'm of course quite biased, but my free download mash pH assistant software allows you to dial in the specific purity percentage (and thereby, by inference, the water content) of your specific lot of CaCl2 in its current (albeit ever changing) state. It neither presumes dihydrate or anhydride to be the fixed state (though as delivered it is set to dihydrate).

 

[SHAIV]

So im just trying my last brew now and its an ipa but it doesnt taste much like an ipa. It seems to be missing hop flavor. I guess my water profile was wrong and i didnt end up with a good hoppy water profile. So maybe i wont be using brewers friend this time so i can see how bru’n water works for me

 

[SHAIV]

Actually i just found out that beersmith will spit out salt additions if you add your recipe and water profile and target water profile. Itll just tell you what you need to get that target! How easy and theres a 21 day free trial! I think im gonna try that

 

[CascadesBrewer]

So im just trying my last brew now and its an ipa but it doesnt taste much like an ipa. It seems to be missing hop flavor. I guess my water profile was wrong and i didnt end up with a good hoppy water profile. So maybe i wont be using brewers friend this time so i can see how bru’n water works for me

I am fairly new to water chemistry. I have seen the biggest impact on my Pale Ales/IPAs (my tap water is fairly high in Chloride and low in Sulfate). That said, the difference is not between "doesn't taste like an IPA/missing hop flavor" to being a great and hoppy IPA. It is more of a slight enhancement to hop bitterness. I would look more at your recipe and process than your water profile.

Actually i just found out that beersmith will spit out salt additions if you add your recipe and water profile and target water profile. Itll just tell you what you need to get that target! How easy and theres a 21 day free trial! I think im gonna try that

I have heard mixed feedback on the auto calculated additions in BeerSmith. The BeerSmith pH calculations (especially the estimated impact of acid additions) seems to be the least accurate of the handful of spreadsheet tools that I have tried.

 

[SHAIV]

Thanks. So i was talking to a friend last night and decided to give it a shot in a few more days. Maybe its just too green. Idk

 

[SHAIV]

So maybe i should stick with the bru’n water route? Bru’n water tells me to use 1.5 ml lactic acid for sparge water. I bought some lactic acid. Beersmith doesnt say to use lactic acid. Its like how can you trust that you are adding the right stuff when nothing tells you the same thing?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So maybe i should stick with the bru’n water route? Bru’n water tells me to use 1.5 ml lactic acid for sparge water. I bought some lactic acid. Beersmith doesnt say to use lactic acid. Its like how can you trust that you are adding the right stuff when nothing tells you the same thing?

That is why pH meters were invented. No single mash pH software assistant is the holy grail (mine assuredly included). The best few things you can do are to acquire and learn to properly use a pH meter, and to avoid the prevailing confirmation bias of the masses who tend to heap praise upon one software and bash another, often without repeatedly reliable proof via repeatedly reliable testing and verification, and as opposed to this, simply doing as others have done in order to belong and to feel good and "fit in" by so doing, and effectively allowing the blind to lead the blind. And lastly acquire a handful of software solution packages, do your own testing across a broad range of beer styles and colors, and "gradually, over time" reach your own conclusions about each software solution (as opposed to getting a single good match and being instantly sold, or in other words buying into confirmation bias, hook, line, and sinker). If one software consistently seems best for one "general" classification of beer, never forget that even a broken clock gives the correct time twice a day, and the real test for pH result consistency must be measured across beers that are of vastly diverse colors and grist component mixtures.

Those who would praise and condemn without gradually building valid evidence for so doing over time are akin to many (to most) amazon.com reviewers who open a box and give 5 stars immediately, or give 5 stars after the very first use of the product. And lots of them do exactly this.

 

[SHAIV]

Right, so i had a ph meter and it crapped out on me. Used it a few times to validate the ph of my sanitizer then the electrode cracked. So basically maybe im overthinking this and shouldnt sweat the water chemistry so much? I mean i want to make good beer but if its off a little then it should be ok right? Im hoping my kegged ipa gets better with a bit of age. I mean theres about 14 oz of hops in it. Im just trying to get this right because me and a buddy are splitting the cost of ingredients and brewing this weekend as a 10 gallon batch. Im still wondering if i got a good starting water profile. I know you made an educated guess based off of other numbers but if we got water from his house and took it to my house just two miles away then theres a water profile online. Its the lexington sc one

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I'm sure the water report was accurate at the time the water was sampled and posted.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Your waters total hardness (if correct) demands that your calcium (and by inference, your magnesium) is (are) going to be at levels at or near my guess. Your low 29 ppm alkalinity and 6.3 ppm of Sodium don't leave much room for high chloride and/or sulfate values. A cation/anion balance based upon mEq's/L is the tool which will not be denied here. The electrical charges must balance. Your essential cations are covered by Ca, Mg, and Na. The anions must balance the cations, and of these only chloride and sulfate are missing.

 

[SHAIV]

Ok that makes more sense, so your saying calcium plus magnesium plus sodium has to equal the amounts of chloride and sulfate? And you can predict this based off the alkalinity and hardness? Sorry i dont remember anything from high school chemistry. Lol. So basically my water is pretty soft and could probably be used for a light lager or something only by removing the chlorine?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Ok that makes more sense, so your saying calcium plus magnesium plus sodium has to equal the amounts of chloride and sulfate? And you can predict this based off the alkalinity and hardness? Sorry i dont remember anything from high school chemistry. Lol. So basically my water is pretty soft and could probably be used for a light lager or something only by removing the chlorine?

On strictly a mEq/L basis waters cations must equal anions. mEq/L (milliequivalents per liter) is not the same thing as ppm (mg/L).

mEq = milliequivalent = (milligrams/molecular weight) x valence

mEq/L = the number of milliequivalents present within 1 Liter of water

Ca+2, Mg+2, and Na+ are cations
SO4-2, Cl-, and alkalinity are anions

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yes, you water is soft. Yes, you need to add Campden to remove the chlorine. 1/4 tablet (crushed) for each 5 gallons.

For a light lager I would probably target 40 to 50 ppm calcium (Ca++) via the addition of only CaCl2 (calcium chloride).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

When calculating ions mEq's remember that you are dealing with the actual and molecular weights of the individual ions.

For example:

5 grams of CaSO4 to be added:

MW of CaSO4 = 136.1406
MW of Ca++ = 40.078
MW of SO4 -- = 96.063

Ca++ = (40.078/136.1406)*5 = 1.472 grams = 1,472 mg
SO4-- = (96.063/136.1406)*5 = 3.528 grams = 3,528 mg

Quick check: 1.472 grams of Ca++ plus 3.528 grams of SO4-- = 5 grams

mEq's of Ca++ = 1,472 x 2/40.078 = 73.457
mEq's of SO4-- = 3,528 x 2/96.063 = 73.451

The very slight difference between them is due only to rounding error. For any individual molecule, its cation component mEq's and anion component mEq's must be equal. This is why it is impossible to make impossible water by adding minerals, whereas opposed to this it is quite common and easy to dream up factually impossible water (where the cations and anions do not balance). When dreaming up an ideal water for a given recipe it is likely pure luck if what you dreamed of on paper actually balances with regard to cation and anion mEq's, thus most of us dream of using factually impossible water profiles that look great on paper.

For mEq's/L simply divide mEq's by the Liters of your water.

 

[SHAIV]

Thank you everyone for the help! I brewed the 10 gallon wheat ale yesterday and got about 83% efficiency! Way exceeded my expectations! I added salts to be close to a base water profile using the bru’n water software and then added lactic acid to lower the ph to around 5.35 or so. Had a little hiccup with my makeshift herms coil getting partially clogged but other than that i think the brew day went very well.

 

[eric19312]

@Silver_Is_Money 's suggestion in post #26 is spot on.

My practice when designing a new brew/grist is to first decide my target mash pH and then think about total and ratio of sulphate and chloride desired. All of the software out there gets pretty much the same answer on PPM chloride and sulphate with salt additions so I will start in one package like Bru'n water and figure out my salt additions then solve for acid requirement to hit target pH. Might get results like 10 grams gypsum and 5 grams CaCl2 and 3mL lactic to get to predicted pH 5.40. I will then check a few other calculators, holding the salt additions at the same gypsum/CaCl2 amounts and solve for lactic to get predicted pH 5.40. All will come up with suggesting different amounts of lactic in the mash. Beersmith tends high in many grists, Bru'n water runs low, and I am building experience with water engine, mash made easy and others.

I then record these calculations in my recipe notes, pick an acid addition based on the results and my experience with similar grists and brew. Then I make sure to calibrate my pH meter and get a room temperature pH reading of the mash at 30 minutes after dough in and record this actual value in my brewing notes. Over time I expect to develop a better sense of which calculator is best for my water and I also suspect some may be better at different kinds of grists than others. I mainly brew with base malts and adjuncts with only small if any additions of roasted or caramel malts. Since I rely on tap water and while generally soft I know there is variability over the year so I don't see a future where I will not want to test and record actual pH in most of my brews.

 

[Soulshine2]

Hey so ive been researching water profiles and adjusting water. My last beer i brewed i started with distilled and built my water from that with brewers friend software. Ill probably use bru’n water next time though. Its more detailed. Anyway im interested in skipping the step of going to walmart to get distilled water and using my home water for a source. Ive got a carbon filter for a refrigerator that i could probably rig up under my sink and use it strictly fir brew water. Or i have a friend that will give me an out of service RO filter system that i might could use for brewing. I dont really want to fork over 42$ for ward labs test at this time. I know, im cheap lol. If i have to i may end up doing that eventually but not right now. I emailed my city water supply and i got some info on my water. It seems a harsh to drink to me so ive never used it for brewing before. I know i would have to get rid of the chlorine first at least but i got this info on my water. I believe i got a few water inputs but i may be missing a few. Heres the info i got

View attachment 632564

View attachment 632565

View attachment 632566

I think i have PH, calcium, sodium, and maybe one more.
Is there anything im missing? Is there something here that is renamed or something? Like hardness is calcium right? Or wrong?

If you cant drink what comes out of your tap , I wouldnt brew with it either. I would do as you have and invest in a good carbon filter at the very least. Maybe go ahead and preboil your water a day or two in advance of brew day. I consider myself lucky to have good tasting water.

 

[SHAIV]

I drink it filtered from my fridge but one time i bought an off brand water filter to try to save money over buying the 50$ water filter and the water tasted horrible. Like it wasnt even being filtered. Needless to say i stick with the expensive brand name filters

Also I got so tired of going to the store and buying 10 gallons of water and this brew was a 10 gallon batch so i needed almost 16 gallons. It added about 80 cents per gallon to my brew costs along with buying ice for my ice water chiller which i also cut out by making about 5 or 6 gallons of ice in advance and separating it out in my freezers. So i basically saved about 25$ on this 10 gallon batch by using my city water for water source and ice source

 

[eric19312]

You might want to try something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006IX87S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

My water tastes pretty good out of the tap but we filter it for drinking anyway. I still treat it with campden tablet on brew day.

 

[SHAIV]

I have an inline ice maker filter i got for that but id have to plumb it up as a permanent thing which i dont especially like or what i might do is figure out a way to use one of my pumps to pump my city water from one vessel through that filter and into my kettle and HLT