Help cloning Paulaner Oktoberfest Weisn beer

[Bottoms_Up]

I currently have two versions (from 1.5-2.5 gallons) in the process of cold crashing over the next few days. Will post results when finished!

Any updates yet?

 

[smirdok]

Any updates yet?

Apologies for the delay. I am a travel RN and have been away. Carbing up as we speak!

 

[smirdok]

Here is the first experiment...
...Looks very nice, but there is something off slightly about it taste/smell wise. Not bad, just not quite right. Slightly thin/cider-ish. Maybe subtle acetaldehyde. Not completely convinced though.
Will try the other experimental batch when it is done carbing up and post results accordingly

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Here is the first experiment...
...Looks very nice, but there is something off slightly about it taste/smell wise. Not bad, just not quite right. Slightly thin/cider-ish. Maybe subtle acetaldehyde. Not completely convinced though.
Will try the other experimental batch when it is done carbing up and post results accordingly

Did you pitch a good healthy supply of yeast? Did you crash it? How long after you added the yeast did you lager it?

 

[smirdok]

Did you pitch a good healthy supply of yeast? Did you crash it? How long after you added the yeast did you lager it?

Proper yeast amount pitched per Beersmith. I crash around 2 degrees every few hours as to not crash too quickly. Lagering time was approximately 5 weeks.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Proper yeast amount pitched per Beersmith. I crash around 2 degrees every few hours as to not crash too quickly. Lagering time was approximately 5 weeks.

That crashing still seems too fast. Chris White (White's Lab) and Jamil Zainasheff recommends dropping the temperature not more than about 2 or 3 degrees per day. After final gravity has been reached, it should continue to condition for a week or so before dropping to under 40 F and lagering. I usually do a diacetyl rest at about 60 F for 2 or 3 days, transfer it to a keg, then drop the temperature about 2 or 3 degrees per day, let it sit above 40 F for a week or so, then bring it down to near zero.

 

[smirdok]

That crashing still seems too fast. Chris White (White's Lab) and Jamil Zainasheff recommends dropping the temperature not more than about 2 or 3 degrees per day. After final gravity has been reached, it should continue to condition for a week or so before dropping to under 40 F and lagering. I usually do a diacetyl rest at about 60 F for 2 or 3 days, transfer it to a keg, then drop the temperature about 2 or 3 degrees per day, let it sit above 40 F for a week or so, then bring it down to near zero.

Dropping 2 degrees F every 4-5 hours may have been too quick. It has never given me issues before, but it is very possible. I plan on brewing a 2 gallon test batch to see what happens. Thanks!

 

[homebrewer_99]

It's that time of the year when I hunt down every lead at local liquor stores and buy out the Paulaner Oktoberfest Weisn on hand. Best Oktoberfest I've ever tasted when I was in Germany.

Anyone have a spot on "Clone"?
View attachment 371596

OK, just to clarify something...you typed in "Weisn". That's a variation of the word wheat, as in Hefe Weizen.

When I looked over the recipes I noticed there was no wheat malt in the ingredients list and commenters were talking about dropping temperatures I knew right away that something was amiss.

The Oktoberfest Marzen is a "wiesn", not a "weisn". "Wies" means meadow/field.

FYI: I lived 40 miles from Munich (4 years) during my first tour there. Twenty years later I was stationed in Bamberg (5 years).

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Any updates on brewing this beer? One thing I did find is that there are only two hop additions. The first (60 minutes) is Herkules. The second is similar to Hallertauer Tradition. I'm not sure when it's added. The malt varieties are indeed Pilsner malt and Munich malt. The water is a soft well water. I think divrguy's recipe looks reasonable, except that the bitter hops should be Herkules rather than Hallertauer Tradition, and perhaps the flavour hops should be added a little sooner (15 minutes left in boil?).

 

[jdauria]

I know this is an old thread, but has anyone seen this video on Paulaner YouTube channel? They say it's 80% Pilsner and 20% "a special dark Munich".https://youtu.be/HSS5eP63_Uc

 

[tderanleau]

I was just emailing Christian the head brewer at Paulaner. He said since last year they no longer use herkules hops, just Hallertau tradition. He said 55% of the hops go in at the start of the boil (just emailed him back and asked how long he boils for) and 45% of the hops go in at the last 10 minutes of the boil. They do a double decoction (he says “with 10 min cooking time each mash” so I assume each time he pulls a 1/3rd of the mash he boils it for only 10 minutes) and also said the the finished product is about 22 EBU (same thing as IBU, no difference). I’ll get back to this with more info once he emails me back with a response. And yes it’s 80% Weyermann Pilsner and 20% Weyermann munich type 2. It’s about a 2 week fermentation time and then lagered for 4 weeks at 29° F or -1.5°C

@jdauria @Bottoms_Up @homebrewer_99 @smirdok @Qhrumphf @SlanginDueces @BrewerE @Larzean @hio3791 @divrguy @TeamAshBrewing @wobdee @

 

[tderanleau]

No response yet but following up… I assume he does a 90 minute boil, I typically use 60 min boils but it seems most use a 90 min when using Pilsner malt. So here’s what the current recipe should look like.

1.056 OG
22 IBU
5 SRM
FG 1.011
ABV 6%

Water chemistry
Ca 22ppm
Mg 8 ppm
Na 0ppm
SO4 31ppm
CI 39ppm
HCO3 0ppm

^ the above water profile is what is said to be the water from Paulaners well.

Double decoction mash, each boil is 10 min long.

80% Weyermann Pilsner
20% Weyermann munich type 2

90 min boil

Start of boil add in 17.2 ibu worth of Hallertau tradition hops

10 min left of boil add in 4.8 ibu worth of Hallertau tradition hops

Their yeast as of now is a secret, I’ll ask him what he uses but doubt he’ll tell me, but I assume either wlp820 or wlp920

Ferment 2 weeks
Lager 4 weeks
Carb to 2.7 vol

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Thanks @tderanleu. Paulaner Oktoberfest is definitely one of my favourites, and I have tried to clone it in the past.

Regarding your recipe, I would add sauergut to give it more of an authentic taste (see below).

If you have a chance, can you verify whether they still add sauergut (in order to increase the acidity)? Unbeknownst to most, that makes a huge difference in the taste of German lagers and tastes much different than just adding aciduated malt or lactic acid. It has almost an orange/apple/grape juice type of taste. It's not difficult to make, but requires 2 or 3 days.

Regarding their yeast, it is a house strain, and one of their most closely-guarded secrets. So it will be impossible to find that strain. But hopefully, the Brewmaster can recommend something that is close.

Another unknown is their fermentation temperature. I assume about 48 F.

Another favourite of mine is Paulaner Munchner Hell.

Do you have any first-hand information on the process/ingredients used to make it as well?

 

[tderanleau]

Thanks @tderanleu. Paulaner Oktoberfest is definitely one of my favourites, and I have tried to clone it in the past.

Regarding your recipe, I would add sauergut to give it more of an authentic taste (see below).

If you have a chance, can you verify whether they still add sauergut (in order to increase the acidity)? Unbeknownst to most, that makes a huge difference in the taste of German lagers and tastes much different than just adding aciduated malt or lactic acid. It has almost an orange juice type of taste. It's not difficult to make, but requires 2 or 3 days.

Regarding their yeast, it is a house strain, and one of their most closely-guarded secrets. So it will be impossible to find that strain. But hopefully, the Brewmaster can recommend something that is close.

Another unknown is their fermentation temperature. I assume about 48 F.

Another favourite of mine is Paulaner Munchner Hell.

Do you have any first-hand information on the process/ingredients used to make it as well?

I did find out it’s a 70 min boil, and after some investigating I believe the yeast strain to be wlp838

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Where did you find that information?

 

[tderanleau]

Where did you find that information?

The boil time was given to me from the paulaner head brewer himself. But the yeast.. is honestly just a solid guess, I read on the Paulaner website they use a munich lager yeast.. and after having the recipe on my BeerSmith that yeast was the only one that didn’t mess up the fg and abv. Few of the other munich/southern Germany lager yeasts would lend a high fg, a few would dry it up a lot. Wlp838 was on the money. Could I be wrong absolutely, but I do believe it’s the best bet

 

[tderanleau]

And I am not sure if they use sauergut, I just emailed him back and asked if they use it and what their targeted mash ph is… maybe he’ll tell me that info or maybe not but I hope he does lol

 

[Bottoms_Up]

The boil time was given to me from the paulaner head brewer himself. But the yeast.. is honestly just a solid guess, I read on the Paulaner website they use a munich lager yeast.. and after having the recipe on my BeerSmith that yeast was the only one that didn’t mess up the fg and abv. Few of the other munich/southern Germany lager yeasts would lend a high fg, a few would dry it up a lot. Wlp838 was on the money. Could I be wrong absolutely, but I do believe it’s the best bet

WLP820 is another possibility.

 

[tderanleau]

WLP820 is another possibility.

Could be but I really don’t think it is

 

[tderanleau]

Thanks @tderanleu. Paulaner Oktoberfest is definitely one of my favourites, and I have tried to clone it in the past.

Regarding your recipe, I would add sauergut to give it more of an authentic taste (see below).

If you have a chance, can you verify whether they still add sauergut (in order to increase the acidity)? Unbeknownst to most, that makes a huge difference in the taste of German lagers and tastes much different than just adding aciduated malt or lactic acid. It has almost an orange juice type of taste. It's not difficult to make, but requires 2 or 3 days.

Regarding their yeast, it is a house strain, and one of their most closely-guarded secrets. So it will be impossible to find that strain. But hopefully, the Brewmaster can recommend something that is close.

Another unknown is their fermentation temperature. I assume about 48 F.

Another favourite of mine is Paulaner Munchner Hell.

Do you have any first-hand information on the process/ingredients used to make it as well?

He wouldn’t tell me if they use sauergut, so I’m going to make the assumption that they do because according to their purity laws that would be the only way they could do so unless they use acid malt but sauergut is very very common in German beers especially lagers. Anyways I did the math for Weyermanns sauergut, 4.7 ML of Weyermann sauergut per pound of grain in the mash will drop the ph by 0.1

 

[Bottoms_Up]

He wouldn’t tell me if they use sauergut, so I’m going to make the assumption that they do because according to their purity laws that would be the only way they could do so unless they use acid malt but sauergut is very very common in German beers especially lagers. Anyways I did the math for Weyermanns sauergut, 4.7 ML of Weyermann sauergut per pound of grain in the mash will drop the ph by 0.1

the result of using Weyermann's aciduated malt will taste very different than using actual sauergut. A friend and I have been experimenting with it for the past year. Many of the German breweries, such as Hacker-Pschorr, use it. I've never been able to determine whether or not Paulaner uses it, although both is owned by the same company (Brau Holding International AG, which in turn is owned by Dutch Heineken N.V. and Schorghuber Corporate Group).

I do know that sauergut is most likely used in Paulaner Pils:

https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/...echs Vollbier,have these flavor notes galore.
"Paulaner Pils and Andechs Vollbier Hell, in particular, are some really nice examples of the power of Sauergut, as they have these flavor notes galore."

 

[jdauria]

Give me just over a month and I will get back with tasting notes on fresh samples of the beer. Have reservations for Paulaner tent at Oktoberfest on 9/27! Can't wait!

 

[cmac62]

Give me just over a month and I will get back with tasting notes on fresh samples of the beer. Have reservations for Paulaner tent at Oktoberfest on 9/27! Can't wait!

That is a bucket list item for sure. Enjoy and let us know how it was.

 

[jdauria]

That is a bucket list item for sure. Enjoy and let us know how it was.

Will do!

 

[Bottoms_Up]

And I am not sure if they use sauergut, I just emailed him back and asked if they use it and what their targeted mash ph is… maybe he’ll tell me that info or maybe not but I hope he does lol

Hi @tderanleau, did you receive any additional information from the Brewer at Paulaner?