Help an old dog learn some of the new tricks

[tke743]

Quick background. I’ve been brewing since the late 80’s and I’ve been a 3 vessel brewer the whole time. I took some time off and I’m preparing to setup a new/retirement in-house brewery.

In that time I took off, single vessel brewing (AIO Not BIAB per the below) has taken off and I’m not sure what’s right for me.

Base info - I’m planing run lengths of 7-10 gallons. I don’t care about efficiency. All I care about is making good beer. Space is not a huge concern, but a smaller brewery will help the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor). This is a big splurge and wife approved, so although money matters it will not be the deciding factor.

1/2 of my recipes are decoction mashed and I’m really concerned about that with AIO

I’ve read the last few years worth of 3 vessel vs AIO threads here and elsewhere. Nobody was able to answer what I was looking for, especially with the decoction.

Primarily trying to decide between a Spike 3 vessel (20 gallon bottom drain) and a Brewtools B80.
Other options I’m kicking around are;
a B80 with a B40 so I have flexibility with batch sizes and always have a HLT.
The Spike HLT and MT with a B80 as the Boil kettle so I have both the 3 vessel for decoction and AIO for single infusion batches.

So the questions I have are
Can I get the same beer out of a AIO vs 3 vessel or is there a flavor difference?
Can AIO (especially with the center pipe) be used with decoction?
Am I overthinking this?

Not intending to start.a flame war, just an old guy trying to understand.

Cold side sorted already.

Thank you in advance for the help.

 

[Happy Tails Brewing]

I have gone from AOI to vessels, so I have not tried the BIAB method, but I am certainly there is no difference in quality between the two. Picking one over the other is down to how you want to brew. I love my three vessel, but it doesn’t make any better beer then my AOI. You have to think about the differences between the two including cost and figure out which is the best for you. Sorry nothing to add on the decoction method. I would think both would be similar.

 

[tke743]

You already helped me. I didn’t know that there’s a difference between BIAB and AIO brewing.

 

[Happy Tails Brewing]

They are close very close but are different. Normally with AOI you have a malt pipe, and with BIAB you have a bag. The Malt pipe requires the wort to flow through the grain, even if it channels BAIB does not require this since it can if theory flow around the bag, but in BIAB you can crush much finer, and with AOI you want a little courser.

I like the 3 vessel, but I cannot argue that is better than the others, I is just what you prefer, and we brew because we enjoy the process, so go with what will make you happy. If you know what you are doing you can make great beet doing extract, anything more complex is because it brings you joy.

 

[Yooper]

I found that doing large batches BIAB was difficult for me, as I would have needed to set up a pulley to lift the grainbag. When I was doing 11 gallon batches, my 3 vessel system had an MLT with a tippy dump. No way I could lift it.

Now I do 5 gallon batches again, and am doing BIAB in my old 10 gallon cooler (which is so much lighter than my stainless keg MLT) and using my Brewzilla as an HLT and boil kettle. There are many more options than 25 years ago, and all are valid and make great beer. The thing is it is much more difficult to decoction mash of course with a single vessel, and even with the Brewzilla, it takes a lot longer to raise the temperature, even with the 240 set up, than it does with a larger system so I no longer attempt any step mashing with it by temperature. And if I'm going to do infusion steps, that's a PITA too with what I have.

 

[tke743]

TY again. So for me it’s AIO vs 3 vessel not BIAB. Corrected in original post.

 

[Happy Tails Brewing]

I liked my AOI "Mash and Boil". I upgraded because of grain size, batch volume 5 vs 10 gal, and heat up time. I went from 1 deg per min. to 3 -5 deg per min, but at a cost for the 240v system. If you are looking at 240v system AOI keep in mind they are around 2000 watts, and a modular 240 system(3V or 1V) will be 5500 watts this is a big difference. Also I have bottom drain, and a mash tun with a door, this is a big difference from a flat bottom

 

[Witherby]

1/2 of my recipes are decoction mashed and I’m really concerned about that with AIO

I’ve read the last few years worth of 3 vessel vs AIO threads here and elsewhere. Nobody was able to answer what I was looking for, especially with the decoction.

Primarily trying to decide between a Spike 3 vessel (20 gallon bottom drain) and a Brewtools B80.
Other options I’m kicking around are;
a B80 with a B40 so I have flexibility with batch sizes and always have a HLT.
The Spike HLT and MT with a B80 as the Boil kettle so I have both the 3 vessel for decoction and AIO for single infusion batches.

So the questions I have are
Can I get the same beer out of a AIO vs 3 vessel or is there a flavor difference?
Can AIO (especially with the center pipe) be used with decoction?
Am I overthinking this?

I switched from a 3 vessel with a picnic cooler mash tun to an Anvil Foundry AIO back in 2020 and I've never looked back. I do no-sparge (so essentially BIAB) and I use a brew bag inside the malt pipe. I do decoction mashes for most of my lagers. I just lift the malt pipe up and let the mash drain some, scoop out as much grain as I need, do a decoction in a separate kettle on my stovetop and return it to the main mash after. With temp control of the AIO, it is much easier to keep the main mash at a constant temperature and when you return the decocted part back, easy to adjust the temp if it is lower than you hoped (which is usually the case for me). I had never seen the Brewtools B80 before. It looks well designed. I love the Foundry for the price, but I don't know anyone who hasn't had to take it apart and replace the board or switches.

The Earl'sches decoction method is another option that doesn't require a second pot (quoting from "Decoction Mashing: History and Modern Approaches" in the May/June 2019 issue of Zymurgy Magazine):
After some experimentation, he found a solution that only needs one kettle, requires much less time, and can be performed without any pumps to move the decoction to the boiling kettle and back. Thus, the “Earl’sches” decoction process was born. The technique takes advantage of the flexibility that comes with small-scale operations. The grist and the strike water can be divided, and the decoction’s focus is not starch conversion, but flavor development. Here is how it is done. The grist and strike water are split into two parts: grist1/grist2 and water1/water2. The water is divided into equal portions, while grist1 can represent as much as 75 percent of the total grain bill. A first mash combining grist1 and water1 is mashed in, and the starch is converted either by single infusion or by a multi-step mash. After that, the mash is brought to a boil. When the mash has boiled for 10 to 40 minutes, the remaining water (water2) is mixed into the mash to cool it back to mash-in temperature. Then, the remaining grist (grist2) is mashed in, followed by another single-infusion mash or multistep program to convert its starches.

On a personal note, I see that you are in Millbury. You should come to the Worcester WIZARDS homebrew club meetings some day. We actually have a meeting tomorrow night at 7:30 and I will be bringing a Kellerbier I brewed with local undermodified malt made just for decoction mashing. I hope to see you at a meeting soon.

 

[Broken Crow]

Can I get the same beer out of a AIO vs 3 vessel or is there a flavor difference?
Can AIO (especially with the center pipe) be used with decoction?
Am I overthinking this?

I'm surprised that no-one has yet linked to this option:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/biabpackagepremium.htm
...just add a controller and you're good to go.
Or, this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...ly-is-mythbusting-for-traditionalists.686973/
As to the decoction, I don't see the big deal....here's some who do it with BIAB;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/biab-and-decoction-mashing.366831/

 

[VTMongoose]

I use a bag on my all in one brewer. It's improved my lautering efficiency and prevented all the stupid grain leakage past the bottom that used to gum up my pump and valves. It's basically a Unibrau that @Bobby_M modified to function like his BIAB systems, which is frankly the best option on the market for the money.

There is nothing stopping me or anyone else from decocting with this type of brewing system or any AIO. I have not personally done it, but let's say I'm chilling in beta at 147°F, controller set to 147. I pull out however many quarts I need using a ladle, bring it up to alpha on my stove for a bit, then boil it, then toss it back in the mash tun and set the controller to whatever I want my alpha rest temp to be. Boom.

 

[tke743]

WIZARDS homebrew club

I will look into this. Not sure if I can get free tomorrow. (FYI, moved to Grafton, that's when I stopped brewing and getting back into it.)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...ly-is-mythbusting-for-traditionalists.686973/

That is a great reference. TY

There is nothing stopping me or anyone else from decocting with this type of brewing system or any AIO. I have not personally done it, but let's say I'm chilling in beta at 147°F, controller set to 147. I pull out however many quarts I need using a ladle, bring it up to alpha on my stove for a bit, then boil it, then toss it back in the mash tun and set the controller to whatever I want my alpha rest temp to be. Boom.

TY, That's what I'm looking for info on.

As I said, old school brewer and building a new brewhouse from scratch. So I'm just looking for info on this newer trend.

 

[Brewer dad]

Another idea for AIO decocting. You could mash as normal in the vessel, and run that off completely. Fill with what would’ve been your sparge water, and decoct as desired. Once done add your first runnings back and proceed.

 

[Bobby_M]

TY again. So for me it’s AIO vs 3 vessel not BIAB. Corrected in original post.

I want you to understand that the use of a bag doesn't make the system function any particular way. My system is extremely powerful, temp stable and it's an all in one that just happens to use a mesh bag as my separation medium instead of a rigid basket. I'm just making sure you don't miss something due to an ill-formed preconception.

Having brewed on more systems than most brewers have even seen in person, I can tell you with confidence that if I had to brew on a 3 vessel system I probably would lose interest in brewing.

If you're willing to drive down to western NJ, you're welcome to sit in on a brew day.

For what it's worth, I've tried decoctions many times and those batches never beat my standard step mashed lagers. Judges always mistake 1-2% melanoidin malt for decoction flavors.

Here's some insight into the system:


here's a very similar system at my buddy Larry's house where we try to pull off a double decoction. The beer was alright.. nothing worth the extra time.

 

[bwible]

If you’re saying you want to do 7-10 gallon batches, your biggest concern with an all in one will be grain capacity. Pay attention to that and see if the system you want has enough capacity for what you want to do.. Also consider that a larger all in one probably needs a 220v outlet.

There’s nothing wrong with a 3 vessel system, even now. Sometimes you can make it 2 vessel if you use the same one to heat sparge water and boil.

 

[tke743]

If you’re saying you want to do 7-10 gallon batches, your biggest concern with an all in one will be grain capacity. Pay attention to that and see if the system you want has enough capacity for what you want to do.. Also consider that a larger all in one probably needs a 220v outlet.

There’s nothing wrong with a 3 vessel system, even now. Sometimes you can make it 2 vessel if you use the same one to heat sparge water and boil.

That's why I'm looking at the B80. 44# of grain capacity. That was one of my worries at first too.

@Bobby_M - TY for the vids, that helps a lot.