Help -> All Grain Newbie

[Figgy15]

Hello fellow Brewers.
So I was hoping to get some advice. After months of Extract Brews, I have made 2 All Grain 5 gallon batches. A Rye IPA and a Stout. Here are the results:
- Hit lower then expected OG readings. One 1st batch, OG should have been 1.057 and ended up being 1.040. 2nd batch OG should have been 1.054 and ended up being 1.042.
- Strike water temp was 180F on both and mash temp after 60 min maintained at 163-164F. Sparse water was 170F.
- For both batches Mash water was 5 gallons and spare water was 3 gallons.
- Grain bill for both was 12lbs. And yes the grains were crushed at my LHBS.

Any thoughts, advice, criticism lol.

 

[brew_ny]

- Strike water temp was 180F on both and mash temp after 60 min maintained at 163-164F.

163 - 164 is hot for mashing I mash between 149 -156

all the best

S_M

 

[johngaltsmotor]

1) Were you intentionally shooting for such a high mash temp? That's above what most people aim for. You'll wind up with a lot more unfermentable sugars (higher FG and thicker/chewier, often sweeter finished beer). I normally limit to 158F on the high side and I see a lot of recipes were people go down to 144F for drier beers.
2) With the crush of an average LHBS it's not unexpected to be low on O.G. How often did you stir during the mash? I've seen some comments lately about people gaining a few points even with LHBS crush simply by "stirring the mash like it owes you money" every 15 minutes. The heat you lose is minimal compared to making sure everything is uniform.
3) did you do a starch conversion (Iodine) test to make sure the mash was long enough? With LHBS crushed grains it can take longer for full conversion.

The one thing you don't mention is how they turned out. Were you satisfied with the finished quality? If so then #1 might not be an issue.

 

[ndinh]

First off, I think you'll get more replies if you posted this on the all grain forum. You're mashing way too high. You want to heat up your mash water to around 164 to get around 151-152F mash for a typical IPA (mash temp varies depending on beer). Add your mash water and stir with a paddle like crazy to make sure you get everything absorbed. Not sure what equipment you're using but my igloo will keep temp -1F for the full hour. Vorlauf until the wort is clear and drain to your BK (assuming you're batch sparging). Sparge with 170 (some people cook it up to 180F). Add sparge, stir like crazy again and let that sit for 10-15min. Vorlauf and drain. Also, people have mentioned that draining slowly helps but there's always conflicting opinions with everything. Make sure you get your water calculations right taking into consideration your equipment loss. I like to use:

http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php

 

[Figgy15]

1) I've been taught to use a higher temp. But guess they were wrong lol. So what beer styles are best done at what mash temp?


2) I was also told never to open the mash tun once It closed because I would lose much needed heat. So after I add the water, I stir it to make sure there are no clumps. Then close it and don't open it again until 60 min timer is done.

3) not sure what u mean by this one. I do use PH stabilizer to make sure the Ph is good. But never heard of a starch conversion test.

4) the stout is still fermenting. And now that I think about it you are right about getting unfermentable sugars cause the fermenting seemed to have stalled. The IPA didn't come out good. But I think it was due to the hop combination I used.

 

[BierGut]

I definitely recommend checking out beersmith.com and downloading the 21 day free trail software. Watch the tutorial and maybe a few youtube videos to help set up your equipment profile. After that its easy to determine how much water to use to hit exact temps., boil time, etc.

 

[johngaltsmotor]

1) do some research. I'm not sure off the top of my head. I prefer session beers so I mash normally high (~155F) to limit fermentability to maximize maltiness.
2) you say you held 163-164 - what was the starting temp after mash-in? If only lost a degree or two over the hour then you'll still be fine with opening for 1min every 15 to stir.
3) if you take a tablespoon of the wort (without chunks of grain) and add a drop of iodine - if it turns purple there are still starches left to convert. If it stays brown then the starches have all been converted to sugars. research starch conversion test (It's not required but can help tell if your mash is out of whack)
4) Typically stouts and Double anything's can handle higher mash temps due to the fullness of flavor. But if you tried making a light ale or lager that warm you'd likely end up really sweet.
When you have free time browse some of the recipes on here and you'll get a feel for what mash temps people typically use for different styles. I don't venture outside of my go-to zone much so I know 155F is going to give me something that I enjoy.

 

[ruralbrew]

As has been mentioned, your mash temperature is too high. You should check out the Recipe Database and see what mash temperatures people are using for the types of beer you want to brew. That will give you a good idea where your temps should be.

Everyone's system is different, and what works for me might not work for you but I have good luck using a thicker mash and sparging twice. If my mash temp isn't where I want it to be I can either stir like mad to get the temperature down or add a little cool water and stir. Or if it is too cool I can add some hot water to bring it up to temperature without ending up with too thin a mash. The first sparge is hotter to bring the mash up to the 168 degree range and the second is no hotter than 170 degrees. Stir, let it sit a few minutes, vorlauf and drain.

Until you get your process down it doesn't hurt to keep a few pounds of light dry malt extract on hand. Check your pre-boil gravity and if it is low figure how much DME you need to add. Once you get your system figured out you will more than likely be close enough it won't be necessary.

I know how disappointing it is to not have a beer not turn out, but don't worry too much about it. it is all part of the learning curve.

 

[TrickyDick]

I do think you could also benefit from a larger sparge volume. I typically let Beersmith figure out my sparge volume for me, and my kettle size is a limiting factor as well. I probably under sparge as well, but I think you are way under sparging.
How much pre boil wort volume did you have?
There is always the option of boiling longer to achieve desired OG while you get dialed in. Just remember to cool any samples to below 80° at least before trying to get an accurate hydrometer reading if you do this. A boil-off calculator and method to accurately measure the volume in your kettle can also be used to do this.
Agreed that your mash temps are probably too high.
Conversion testing in my experience has been tricky. On Braukaiser website there is a nice write up of how to do it right, and that has worked well for me.
Your water chemistry might also be a factor, probably pH too high. The water chemistry practical primer thread might be of interest to you, which keeps things really really simple.

Personally, I think that you have a combination of issues going on, not just too high mash temps.

TD



Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[frazier]

3) if you take a tablespoon of the wort (without chunks of grain) and add a drop of iodine - if it turns purple there are still starches left to convert. If it stays brown then the starches have all been converted to sugars. research starch conversion test (It's not required but can help tell if your mash is out of whack)

And, since you (Figgy) are unfamiliar with this test, I just want to point out that iodine is poison, don't return the test sample to the mash. Separate plate, separate spoon, down the drain when done. Maybe this "goes without saying," but there, I said it.

Also, it may take a number of batches to get your process dialed in. Most brewing software seems to default to 75% mash efficiency, which IMO leads to unrealistic expectations at the start. I started feeling a lot better about my beers after I set the efficiency to 65%, and bought grains accordingly. MUCH easier to hit the numbers! Keep a pound of DME handy, you can always add it at the end of the boil if needed. Eventually your numbers will improve.

Cheers!

 

[Figgy15]

I want to thank everyone for their responses and advice. I will take what everyone suggested and try again. As always I love this community.