Help adjusting RO water for a pale ale

[dirtyb15]

Hi all! So, after a discouraging water report i decided to buy a 5 stage RO system. Hope to have it installed by this weekend but in the mean time have been trying to figure out how to adjust for a pale ale. I am attempting to use the ez water calculator spreadsheet. I left all of the starting water profiles at 0, and entered 100% dilution for the mash / sparge water. After entering in grain amounts it looks like i need to lower the ph using gypsum, calcium chloride, and or epson salt? Is there a rule of thumb as to which i should use , etc...? Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[Yooper]

Hi all! So, after a discouraging water report i decided to buy a 5 stage RO system. Hope to have it installed by this weekend but in the mean time have been trying to figure out how to adjust for a pale ale. I am attempting to use the ez water calculator spreadsheet. I left all of the starting water profiles at 0, and entered 100% dilution for the mash / sparge water. After entering in grain amounts it looks like i need to lower the ph using gypsum, calcium chloride, and or epson salt? Is there a rule of thumb as to which i should use , etc...? Thanks in advance for any help!

You would use calcium sulfate (gypsum), epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) and calcium chloride for flavor, not for lowering the pH of your mash. It does that, a bit, but the best and easiest way to lower mash pH of your mash is by using an acid like lactic acid or phosphoric acid.

A great way to deal with sparging is to use 100% RO water for sparging- no acidity or adjustments needed!

For pale ales, I like less sulfate than many of the brewing 'profiles', about 150 ppm, and get there simply with gypsum.

Just a note about EZ water- it's always been very high at estimating my mash pH, often by about .3 (which is a LOT!). Try comparing it with brewer's friend (also free and more accurate in my experience). I use bru'n water, but there is a learning curve to it- it's worth it though!

 

[brick_haus]

For my pale ales, I like RO water +:
1.8 grams/gallon Gypsum
0.2 grams/gallon baking soda
0.5 grams/gallon calcium chloride
0.2 grams/gallon calcium carbonate
Mash only, no additions to sparge as per Yoopers recommendations.

Play around with your water until you find YOUR sweet spot.

 

[dirtyb15]

Great, thanks to both of you!

 

[The_Bishop]

Off the top of my head, brick haus's additions will result in too high of a mash ph in a pale ale. The whole idea of RO is removing minerals and alkalinity, and unless you're doing a beer with a lot of dark grain there is little/no reason to add alkalinity back into the equation.

That's also going to be one mineral heavy beer. It's a bit too much, especially in the gypsum department.

Also, Calcium Carbonate is relatively insoluble in water.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, the calcium carbonate, especially, needs to go. I'm finding out that it takes even longer to react than I had thought. At mash pH and even a couple of tenths below it can take days. I suppose the good news there is that the carbonate doesn't react quickly enough to damage the mash but the bicarb does and should not be there.

 

[NervousDad]

Another vote for Bru'n Water great tool that I was a steep learning curve for me after using EZ water, but I'd never go back.

A ballpark number for me is 10g Gypsum(CaSO4) and 1g CaCl for mash (Sparge with RO) then I add another 10g/1g to the boil. However your profile would be different based on Mash pH.

This gives me:
Ca ~140
So4 ~290
Cl ~30

pH 5.3 (I don't check this with meter)
So4/Cl Ratio ~9

 

[brick_haus]

Regardless of the calculator, with the above mentioned additions, my mash pH is always around 5.45, just where I like it. My PA and IPA,s turn out pretty good according to general consensus and competition results. My apparent attenuation and effeciency is very good and hop flavors and aroma(especially) are where they should be.
I know everyone's credentials, so I'm not trying to say that anybody is wrong. This is just my experience with my system and recipes.
In my younger days I was a lab tech/Sr. Lab tech. My balances are accurate with a resolution of .01g and my M102 pH meter is stable and calibrated before each use.
Check your own mash pH and base your recipe on Your own results.

 

[The_Bishop]

Without knowing what grain bill you are using, it is impossible to predict your results based on what you're adding to your water. On the other hand, your results fly in the face of countless actual measured mash pH levels based on a 'typical' pale ale grain bill.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I don't use RO water, and prefer to just adjust my own ground water (after treating with campden for chloramine), but like Yooper I like the sulfate to be a little lower on hoppy beers. For my bitter beers I usually target 150-170ppm sulfate, and my ground water chloride is usually around 40-50ppm so I either leave it where it is for heavily hopped, or I may bump it up to around 80ppm. I never go above 200ppm sulfate, but my taste and your taste may not be the same thing.

 

[Weezy]

I always liked this write-up:

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/02/water-chemistry-how-to-build-your-water.html?m=1

 

[brick_haus]

I always liked this write-up:

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/02/water-chemistry-how-to-build-your-water.html?m=1

Yes, thats a good one. I also recommend that as a starting poing.

 

[Yooper]

Well, that write up is pretty much exactly from our 'water primer' sticky: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/ and he links back to it to give the credit here.

but you'll notice that there is NO baking soda or calcium carbonate added to the water. Baking soda is ok to raise mash pH, if needed, but it shouldn't be needed in a pale ale. It may be needed in a porter or stout, with RO water being the base.

One thing I've done over the years is sparge with 100% RO water. It's great- there is no alkalinity to speak up so I don't have to use acid to acidify my sparge water.

 

[ajdelange]

Regardless of the calculator, with the above mentioned additions, my mash pH is always around 5.45, just where I like it...
I know everyone's credentials, so I'm not trying to say that anybody is wrong....

Having 'credentials' doesn't make someone right. If you are really seeing pH 5.45 with chalk and bicarbonate added to RO water in a pale ale mash I'd like to know why. Has to be something violating the usual assumptions about what goes into a pale ale grain bill (unusual amount of some unusually acidic crystal mallt), unusual pH measurement technique (at mash rather than room temperature)... Can you clarify?

Check your own mash pH and base your recipe on Your own results.

Good advice!

 

[NervousDad]

Not to side track this thread, but those that sparge with RO (like myself) do you add your salt additions to the boil or do you just add all additions to your starting water. I add to boil and not sure if i'm over complicating things.

My process is to get the pH in line using the spread sheet then add the rest to the boil..

 

[Yooper]

Not to side track this thread, but those that sparge with RO (like myself) do you add your salt additions to the boil or do you just add all additions to your starting water. I add to boil and not sure if i'm over complicating things.

My process is to get the pH in line using the spread sheet then add the rest to the boil..

Either way.

If I'm only using the water that fits in my HLT then I treat all of the water at once, but if I'm refilling the HLT, I'll treat mash and sparge water separately.

My HLT is limited to a tad over 14 gallons, so I generally do have to refill a little since I start my boil with 12 gallons.

 

[brick_haus]

Having 'credentials' doesn't make someone right. If you are really seeing pH 5.45 with chalk and bicarbonate added to RO water in a pale ale mash I'd like to know why. Has to be something violating the usual assumptions about what goes into a pale ale grain bill (unusual amount of some unusually acidic crystal mallt), unusual pH measurement technique (at mash rather than room temperature)... Can you clarify?


Good advice!

I dont believe that my grain bill is out of the ordinary by much. It varies a little depending on what I'm trying to achieve. For example, the last IIPA was:
13.5#PALE MALT
6oz Crystal 35
10oz Carapils
2 point calibration (7.01/4.01) on M102 pH meter prior to mash in.
Mash pH at 75*F (and corrected by ATC) - 5.45 (this recipe fluctuates between 5.44 and 5.48 from batch to batch).

After adding 8oz dextrose to boil:
OG 1.078
FG 1.008

I have been very happy with the results.

That being said, I have based my additions on past results. I have had several batches, way back when, with mash pH in the 4.8-5.0 range. Of course, when these low results were a problem, I did everything I could to rule out faulty equipment/solutions. It was time for a new meter anyway, and my solutions were current, and double checked against the solutions supplied with the new meter.
Dont know what else to say.

 

[ajdelange]

I have been very happy with the results.

That's what really counts.

That being said, I have based my additions on past results. I have had several batches, way back when, with mash pH in the 4.8-5.0 range. Of course, when these low results were a problem, I did everything I could to rule out faulty equipment/solutions. It was time for a new meter anyway, and my solutions were current, and double checked against the solutions supplied with the new meter.
Dont know what else to say.

I can't do much to clear up the mystery except put numbers into a spreadsheet based on measuerments of malts that I and Kai Troester have taken over time. If I use the most acidic base malt for which I have info with a DI mash pH of 6.13 (it's a Pilsner malt but more acidic that the ale malts I've checked) and add 40L crystal (data from Kai) and Cara Pils (that I measured so long ago I haven't that much confidence but that is really acud stuff with DI pH of 5.15 and a whopping -158 mEq/kg-pH buffering I can get a mash pH estimate of 5.48 without any bicarbonate or carbonate. If I add the bicarbonate then it goes to 5.51 pH. Adding the bicarbonate would, if it reacted, push that up to 5.56 but it probably doesn't react until way late. So it looks as if you more than usually acidic malts and the bicarbonate didn't react you could get into that ball park.

 

[brick_haus]

All that being said, isn't efficiency and attenuation the bottom
Line? IOW, even if I was getting false readings and the pH was actually 5.6, or whatever, if you get the sugar and healthy yeast, what else will the high pH affect?

 

[ajdelange]

All that being said, isn't efficiency and attenuation the bottom
Line?

Actually, no. Flavor is. Those of us who chase this discovered, in the words of one acolyte, that when pH was lowered into the desirable range, 'all the flavors become brighter'. That's what motivates most of us. Now if you are the head accountant for a large brewery your perspective might be different.

IOW, even if I was getting false readings and the pH was actually 5.6, or whatever, if you get the sugar and healthy yeast, what else will the high pH affect?

I think the concern of everyone who responded here is that the alkali would push your mash pH too high leading to dull, muddy flavors.

 

[The_Bishop]

Be that as it may, but your results are atypical and the advice you are giving based on them is flawed, which could cause someone else problems with their mash and brewing process.

This covers it far better than I can:
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing

Here are a few highlights from the article regarding proper mash PH:

The enzymatic activity in the mash is increased as all important enzymes get activated. (except for alpha amylase which starts to suffer at a pH below 5.6)

More zinc, an essential yeast nutrient, goes into solution

The extract yield (efficiency) is improved

The protein coagulation and precipitation is improved (improved break formation)

The redox potential is improved which results in a lower susceptibility to oxygen.

The run-off speed is improved

The color increase during the wort boil is reduced

Better trub precipitation and faster pH drop lead to faster fermentation and greater attenuation of the beer.

Lower viscosity improves filterability

The taste of the beer is more rounded, fuller and softer. The beer is crisper, more fresh and shows more character.

The hop bitterness is more pleasant and doesn't linger

The foam is more stable and denser

The color of the beer is lighter

Mash oxidation is reduced since the main culprit, the lipoxigenase enzyme, doesn't work well at low mash pH conditions

Haze stability is improved

Beer digestion is stimulated. This is a positive effect of the lactic acid

Susceptibility to microbial spoilage is reduced through

Lower beer pH: beer spoilage organism don't grow below a pH of 4.4

Higher attenuation

 

[cgrivois]

A dumb question Im sure, but what water profile should I use in brewers friend if I use RO water as my sparge water. Are all elements 0, what is the PH?

 

[The_Bishop]

The PH of the water doesn't matter much as long as the buffering capability is zero or near zero. Do not add alkalinity increasing salts to the sparge water.

 

[Yooper]

All that being said, isn't efficiency and attenuation the bottom
Line? IOW, even if I was getting false readings and the pH was actually 5.6, or whatever, if you get the sugar and healthy yeast, what else will the high pH affect?

Just flavor. You can fully convert at 5.0, or 6.0, but the flavor will be less than ideal. My preference for the styles of beer I brew tends to be a mash pH of 5.3-5.4. My efficiency doesn't change. Attenuation doesn't change.

A dumb question Im sure, but what water profile should I use in brewers friend if I use RO water as my sparge water. Are all elements 0, what is the PH?

Not 0, but since the alkalinity is low there isn't any need to acidify the sparge water so the numbers don't matter.

 

[Qhrumphf]

My preference for the styles of beer I brew tends to be a mash pH of 5.3-5.4. My efficiency doesn't change. Attenuation doesn't change.




Not 0, but since the alkalinity is low there isn't any need to acidify the sparge water so the numbers don't matter.

I vary. My paler, hoppier beers I tend to like around 5.3. My darker beers I find do be better (smoother) around 5.5. And yes, it has no impact on my efficiency or attenuation either.

Also, I would rather use a couple penny's worth (rough estimate) of acid in my sparge rather than pay for RO water, or pay for and then wait for an RO filter, but again I prefer to simply adjust my tap water which obviously isn't right for everyone.

 

[The_Bishop]

Honestly, aside from fermentation temperature control and going all-grain, the next big improvement in my beers came from water. My RO system is worth every penny, and not only provides brewing water but water for my refrigerator, it's ice maker, and a separate tap at the sink for drinking/cooking water.

It beats the pants off of constantly buying bottled water to brew with. My well water is far too alkaline prior to RO treatment.

 

[mabrungard]

If the calcium and magnesium content of the brewing water is boosted to high concentrations in the quest of elevated sulfate content for a good, dry pale ale finish, then it is a requirement to include a minor amount of alkalinity to keep the pH from dropping too low. To improve hop bittering and character, the mash and kettle pH needs to be around 5.4.

 

[ajdelange]

For what the gentleman posted and using no bicarbonate or carbonate he might expect a mash pH of around 5.66 using a base malt with a DI mash pH of 5.69 and nominal (-46 mEq/kg-pH) buffering. The small amounts of colored malts don't provide enough acid to pull the mash pH very far from the pH of the base malt. This is with DI water - no minerals yet. Now if he finds a base malt with lower DI pH (e.g. a pilsner malt: pHDi = 5.62) then clearly the pH will drop some to around 5.60. Now if we add his gypsum and calcium chloride addition we find the protons released by the calcium reaction to drop the pH by an expected 0.05 assuming that the drop we get in the mash is the full drop that Kolbach observed in the kettle at knockout. Thus the pH drop due to the calcium addition is going to be less than 0.05 but calling it 0.05 we'd have an estimated mash pH of 5.54. He used enough gypsum to get the sulfate to 177 (total calcium 6 mEq/L) assuming a water to grist ratio of 1.25 qts/lb. Let's up the sulfate to 300 mg/L. That would require enough extra gypsum to raise calcium to 8.6 mEq/L. This would, at the full Kolbach drop, cause a further decrease in pH of 0.02. Total drop 0.07; predicted mash pH 5.52. At this point we'd have a mash with a total buffering capacity of about -286 mEq/pH. If we indeed think we need to get to 5.4 (I'd accept 5.52) we'd need an additional 36 mEq of acid. That could conveniently come from a quarter of a pound of sauermalz (1.7%, note that this approximately follows Weyermann's rule of thumb). If we go back to a more typical ale malt the required amount of sauermalz would go up to about 6.5 Oz (2.7%).

These calculations are consistent with what most of the people here who, based on their brewing experiences, commented that adding alkali to a grist like this one would likely push the pH too high. No, most grists like this, even with sulfate at 300 ppm, do not need a little alkali, they need a little acid (as most grists do). Note that I cannot say that there will never be a case where a grist like this might not produce a mash pH requiring some alkali. It would just be based on the malts I have been able to get data on, unlikely.