Hefeweizen tips..

[Rob2010SS]

Brewing a hefeweizen in a week and looking for some advice.

I'm going to incorporate the ferulic acid rest with this beer, as an attempt to increase a bit of the clove flavors.

I'm reading that some target a higher mash pH with these beers (5.6 - 6.0).

Questions:
1. Am I understanding correctly that I should target the higher mash pH during the acid rest because the acid rest will lower the pH?
2. If the acid rest doesn't lower the pH enough for the saccharification rest (5.2 - 5.4) should I be adjusting the pH back into this kind of range or is it ok? (Never done the acid rest before so this is new for me)

I'm sure more questions will pop up. Thanks.

EDIT: To further elaborate, I'm building out the water profile with Bru'n Water and I'm targeting a 5.75 mash pH during the acid rest which I anticipate to drop during the acid rest. Am I correct in my thinking? I've read some things from others where they say targeting the higher pH is incorrect and leads to muddy flavors. Not sure what's accurate...

 

[Rob2010SS]

Just bumping. Any advice here?

 

[Jag75]

I'd love to help with your process but its different then how I brew them. I use Bru n water as well but I set up for a 5.4 ph. I hope someone will post with experience in this mash process your interested in.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I'd love to help with your process but its different then how I brew them. I use Bru n water as well but I set up for a 5.4 ph. I hope someone will post with experience in this mash process your interested in.

Do you also do the acid rest?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Ferrulic acid enzymes work best at a pH around 5.8 (room temp), so you should leave pH adjustment until after the rest. See here
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:PH_and_temp_enzyme_matrix.jpgBut, don't expect too much of a pH drop during the rest. Acid rests were traditionally very long (hours). The rests we do these days aren't likely to have a major effect on pH.

 

[Jag75]

Do you also do the acid rest?

I just do a single mash @153

 

[cactusgarrett]

The ferulic acid rest needs a higher pH than standard target mash pH to "work". So, treat your mash to make that intial step pH ~5.8, then after the acid rest, treat it further to go down to 5.3-5.4.

One article's explanation.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Here are some of my go-to resources for killer hefes:

https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/hefe-weissbier-bavarian-style.561388/

 

[deuc224]

I single mash at 150 and i think if you ferment in low 60s it reduces banana and highlights cloves.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I got a strong clove aroma from my last batch. I believe it's the combination of the ferulic acid rest and the high pH that did it. I did a 20-minute rest at 45C, then 45 minutes at 67C, then 30 minutes at 72C. My estimated mash pH was 5.83. In the past, I added lactic acid after the ferulic rest, to lower the pH for the rest of the mash, but I didn't do it this time. I also fermented at 21C.

 

[Rob2010SS]

We ultimately ended up doing the ferulic acid rest for 25 min (pH 5.6) and then went right up to mash temp at 152. Fermented at 64F and kept it there for the first 3 days of fermentation and then ramped it up 1 degree per day until 70 and kept it there until crashing and carbing.

I think I'm not very good at picking out the clove flavor because to me, it still tastes pretty banana-y. My wife tasted it and said she can taste both clove and banana but that she thinks it's not at banana-y as some commercial examples we've had. I have a Weihenstephaner bottle in my fridge that I'm going to do a side by side and see how it compares.

Thanks for the info. First carbed pour...

Things I would do differently next time...

1. I would use baking soda to get the pH during the FA rest up to 5.8. The 5.6 was RO water with no additions, just grains.

2. I would ferment lower. 64F was the bottom of the optimal range on OYL 021 and I didn't want to go much below that. Next time, I'll go down to 62F. I was leary of going below optimal temp range.

 

[Jag75]

Nice looking beer man !

 

[Rob2010SS]

thanks man.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Reviving my old thread here, looking for some advice on a Hefeweizen again. When I entered this one into a competition last time, here's the feedback I got...

- Sulfur/yeasty note: I did not detect this but I was dinged for sulfur by 1 and yeasty by the other.
- Phenolic: multiple comments on light clove character but seemed to be treated as a fault?
- Bitterness overpowering the malt character: IBU's were only at 11 and I did not pick up on this but so be it.
- Too high carb..? 1 judge commented on carbonic bite. Isn't it supposed to be high carb?
- Need to increase mouthfeel and grain character
- Less attenuative yeast
- Yeast that is more expressive of banana to make a classic style

I've attached the competition results. Below is the recipe.

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Weissbier
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 18 gallons (ending kettle volume)
Boil Size: 19 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.048
Efficiency: 71% (ending kettle)

Hop Utilization Multiplier: 0.97

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.007
ABV (standard): 5.65%
IBU (tinseth): 11.2
SRM (morey): 5
Mash pH: 5.57

FERMENTABLES:
20 lb - Wheat Malt (55.8%)
12 lb - Pilsner (33.5%)
1.75 lb - Melanoidin (4.9%)
1.5 lb - Rice Hulls (4.2%)
0.6 lb - Acidulated Malt (1.7%)

HOPS:
2.3 oz - Hallertau Mittelfruh, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.7, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 8.9
1.2 oz - Hallertau Mittelfruh, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.7, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 2.3

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 112 F, Time: 25 min, Amount: 12 gal, Ferulic Acid Rest
2) Infusion, Temp: 153 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 12 gal, Sacc Rest
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.33 qt/lb

YEAST:
Omega Yeast Labs - Hefeweizen Ale I OYL-021
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (custom): 85%
Flocculation: Low
Optimum Temp: 65 - 75 F
Fermentation Temp: 64 F
Pitch Rate: 0.35 (M cells / ml / deg P)

PRIMING:
CO2 Level: 4.04 Volumes

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: 31514
Ca2: 51
Mg2: 5
Na: 8
Cl: 72
SO4: 51
HCO3: 16
Water Notes:
1g of baking soda raises pH by .04 points.
1mL lactic acid lowers pH by .04 points.
0.2lbs additional acid malt lowers pH .07 points.

Questions
1. If I want to push it more clove again, is that typically dinged as a flaw by judges? If I'm going to put it in a competition, should I let the banana shine through?

2. Instead of having 2 hop additions, should I combine it into 1, move it to like the 30 minute mark and drop the IBU's to the lower end of the style (~8)?

3. I performed the ferulic acid rest here and I feel like that may have been the culprit in having this beer over attenuate. The recipe shows FG at 1.007 which is accurate, but that's because I changed it once the beer finished. Was aiming for FG of 1.012. Should I drop the FA rest to prevent over attenuation?

4. Really not sure what to make of the too high carb note.

5. Mouthfeel I think is an easy fix I think. Mash a bit higher, maybe 156 -157 instead of 152-153. Grain character though, not sure there...

6. Yeast that is more expressive of banana to get more balance - again, feel like I was dinged for the clove flavor when I thought they could swing one way or the other.....


All thoughts and opinions welcome. Thanks in advance.

 

[cactusgarrett]

yeasty by the other.

It doesn't read like you got dinged for yeast flavor or aroma, so I think you're fine there.

Aside from the FG, recipe numbers seem solid. That low FG... I'm not surprised about the comments of thin mouthfeel. I am likely wrong, but as I understand it, the acid rest doesn't contribute to fermentability or over-attenuation, just mash pH and that clove flavor. I think grainbills for standard hefes lean more towards 60/40 pils/wheat. Doing that will give it more of a sweet/grainy flavor noted as lacking.

Also, 4.0 vol is VERY high, even for a hefe, so the comments on over carb and carbonic bite tracks.

Based on the comments and specific things to correct, give this a re-read for the next iteration:
Brewing Bavarian Weissbier - all you ever wanted to know |

 

[Rob2010SS]

It doesn't read like you got dinged for yeast flavor or aroma, so I think you're fine there.

Aside from the FG, recipe numbers seem solid. That low FG... I'm not surprised about the comments of thin mouthfeel. I am likely wrong, but as I understand it, the acid rest doesn't contribute to fermentability or over-attenuation, just mash pH and that clove flavor. I think grainbills for standard hefes lean more towards 60/40 pils/wheat. Doing that will give it more of a sweet/grainy flavor noted as lacking.

Also, 4.0 vol is VERY high, even for a hefe, so the comments on over carb and carbonic bite tracks.

Based on the comments and specific things to correct, give this a re-read for the next iteration:
Brewing Bavarian Weissbier - all you ever wanted to know |

Missed that when I copied the recipe text. I did not carb to 4.0 vol that’s for sure. That was an auto generated number. I used the carb charts and targeted 3.08 vol.

what are your thoughts on the clove flavor? was that noted as a fault?

 

[cactusgarrett]

what are your thoughts on the clove flavor? was that noted as a fault?

As someone who likes the clove more than the banana, I'm always striving for clove>banana. Judge 1 just notes the aroma is there, but it's probably because he perceives the banana as being minimal. Notes the flavor is light. I think you're good, there, with him. As with countless other competitions, Judge 2 notes the banana and nothing about the clove. I don't read anything about clove being a fault.

 

[Rob2010SS]

As someone who likes the clove more than the banana, I'm always striving for clove>banana. Judge 1 just notes the aroma is there, but it's probably because he perceives the banana as being minimal. Notes the flavor is light. I think you're good, there, with him. As with countless other competitions, Judge 2 notes the banana and nothing about the clove. I don't read anything about clove being a fault.

Don’t the check boxes on the left count as faults? It’s grouped into the phenolic group

 

[cactusgarrett]

Don’t the check boxes on the left count as faults?

Typically, yes, but not when they're to style. Tell me my hefe is phenolic, yeasty, and estery and I'm a happy camper. If they don't explicitly call it out in their personal assessment on the right, I wouldn't sweat it.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Typically, yes, but not when they're to style. Tell me my hefe is phenolic, yeasty, and estery and I'm a happy camper. If they don't explicitly call it out in their personal assessment on the right, I wouldn't sweat it.

Good to know!! Thanks for the advice!

 

[SFC Rudy]

My last hefe I mashed at 152 for 45 minutes. I use Lallemand Munich Classic dry yeast in an "open" fermenter; I've used may liquid yeasts, but am having better luck with this dry yeast. I ferment in a 15 gallon sterilite storage container from Wal Mart with a cooling coil and jerry-rigged cooling system and fermented at 68. The beer reminded me of many of the Hefe weizens I drank while stationed in Germany.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Alright, so I altered my recipe for this beer a bit. See below... The big changes are in bold. By pulling the melanoidin from my first go and replacing with carafoam, the color lightened up significantly. I don't know if I'd want it to be that light.

Thoughts on the color? I guess what I'm looking for is opinions on if that's too light for a Hefeweizen. The first one pictured a few posts back was 5 SRM.

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Weissbier
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 18.25 gallons (ending kettle volume)
Boil Size: 19 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.046
Efficiency: 80% (ending kettle)

Hop Utilization Multiplier: 0.97

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.048
Final Gravity: 1.012
ABV (standard): 4.8%
IBU (tinseth): 12.52
SRM (morey): 3.24
Mash pH: 5.48

FERMENTABLES:
15.2 lb - Wheat Malt (48.5%)
12 lb - Pilsner (38.3%)
1.8 lb - Carafoam (5.7%)
1.5 lb - Rice Hulls (4.8%)
0.85 lb - Acidulated Malt (2.7%)

HOPS:
2.5 oz - Hallertau Mittelfruh, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.7, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 9.65
1.5 oz - Hallertau Mittelfruh, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.7, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 2.87

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 110 F, Time: 15 min, Amount: 10.5 gal, Ferulic Acid Rest
2) Infusion, Temp: 153 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 12 gal, Sacc Rest
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.35 qt/lb

YEAST:
Omega Yeast Labs - Hefeweizen Ale I OYL-021
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (custom): 75%
Flocculation: Low
Optimum Temp: 65 - 75 F
Fermentation Temp: 60 F
Pitch Rate: 0.35 (M cells / ml / deg P)

 

[day_trippr]

That looks like a solid recipe
I really do prefer a light color with my wheat beers to the point I'll use my lightest Weyermann pilsner malt with the white wheat and just a bit of dextrin (carapils)...

Cheers!

 

[mashpaddled]

I brewed a hefe a few months ago and tried to get too technical with raising the ph for the ferulic rest and lowering it after. I did something wrong with the acid addition and it ended up too tart for the style. I've brewed plenty of wheat and Belgian beers with phenolics and never had a problem crafting those flavors with ferulic rests at regular mash ph. I'm not saying the science is wrong but I haven't found it necessary in the past. I need to rebrew a hefe and not worry about mid-mash ph adjustments and see if it turns out better.

 

[Rob2010SS]

On my first go at it, pH during the FA rest came in at 5.6 with no additions to the water, just the grains. This time I'm looking at adding baking soda (2.1g) to get it up to 5.8 for the FA rest. After that rest, .85lbs of acid malt on top of the water additions of Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, and Epsom Salt get me back to 5.35 which will probably end up around 5.39 if my last go at this tells me anything about how the pH will respond. We'll see how it goes.

I brewed a hefe a few months ago and tried to get too technical with raising the ph for the ferulic rest and lowering it after. I did something wrong with the acid addition and it ended up too tart for the style. I've brewed plenty of wheat and Belgian beers with phenolics and never had a problem crafting those flavors with ferulic rests at regular mash ph. I'm not saying the science is wrong but I haven't found it necessary in the past. I need to rebrew a hefe and not worry about mid-mash ph adjustments and see if it turns out better.

Do you know what your pH after your acid addition was? Did you hit your target and it still came out too tart or did you overshoot and have too low of a pH? Just curious for my own knowledge, as I'm attempting that on this go around.

 

[Gus_13]

This was posted above but this is pretty much how I brew my wheat beers and I've loved them all.

Hefe Weissbier, Bavarian Style

Competitions can be great and get nice feedback but also remember to brew beer that you like. Not every judge is going to judge the same beer the same way. Sometimes you even get contradicting advice from them.

I like your color so I wouldn't change much there. Mine are typically very light unless I brew an Ur style. I also typically only do a single addition of hops for 12ish IBUs. I target 13 since it's my favorite number. Haven't done any late kettle additions for years.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Thanks for sharing that!! That's a really good write up. That's what my wife and I have always said. We're brewing beer that WE like to drink. The competitions are secondary and are really just for verifying that we're not making **** beer and having ugly baby syndrome, LOL.

 

[WalletHocker]

Although no substitute for some of the heavy hitters linked above...

The Speidel Braumeister manual (Ch. 12) contains a recipe and overview for the wheat beer brewing process.

They also provide one on their recipe page.

Brewing recipe for Wheat beer - Speidels Braumeister (speidels-braumeister.de)
20l Braumeister Manual

 

[Rob2010SS]

Well, entered this latest revision of our Hefeweizen into a competition and it took a silver medal!! Super pumped! First medal for us. Only took 5 competitions...

Kept the recipe as laid out in post #22. The pH during the Ferulic Acid rest was 5.88 after adding 2.1g baking soda to it, then added the minerals and acid malt, raised temp to 154F, and mash pH landed at 5.44, higher than expected. Quickly added 3mL lactic acid and mash pH was at 5.37 20 minutes later.

This came out quite tasty! When my wife tasted it for the first time, she said the clove was so prevalent that it was ALMOST spicy. Which was our goal, to bring out as much clove as possible.

Color came out perfect. The picture of the pour looks a bit darker than it actually is. The color in the sample photo is more true to color in real life I think. I don't think I'd change a thing. This is quite a tasty beer! Thanks to everyone to chimed in and helped us pull off our first medal!

EDIT: Actually, one thing was different about the recipe. Didn't use Omega yeast. Used Lallemand Munich Classic yeast, 4 packs.