Hefeweizen CO2 volume argument

[New Brew]

Interesting info, thanks for posting that. I guess the question still remains though - how do they get those volumes in the bottle and can we homebrewers do it at home? Is there a difference between pressure when force carbing then bottling as opposed to bottle conditioning?

I think the info posted a little earlier from the Hieronymus book is correct. The traditional German brewers cannot force carb or add bottle priming sugar by law. They achieve carbonation by krausening the beer with freshly fermenting wort before/when bottling. Beyond that, there's lots of conflicting info about the details of the processes used; wheat ale/lager yeast in the bottle, original yeast filtered or not, exact volumes of CO2 achieved, etc.

There's no reason a homebrewer couldn't carbonate by krausening, there's a PDF by Northern Brewer on advanced bottle conditioning floating around that gives directions on how to do it & achieve you desired carbonation level. It's much simpler to add priming sugar though, and not clear that there's significant effect on the flavor.

 

[maida7]

I think the info posted a little earlier from the Hironomous book is correct. The traditional German brewers cannot force carb or add bottle priming sugar by law. They achieve carbonation by krausening the beer with freshly fermenting wort before/when bottling. Beyond that, there's lots of conflicting info about the details of the processes used; wheat ale/lager yeast in the bottle, original yeast filtered or not, exact volumes of CO2 achieved, etc.

There's no reason a homebrewer couldn't carbonate by krausening, there's a PDF by Northern Brewer on advanced bottle conditioning floating around that gives directions on how to do it & achieve you desired carbonation level. It's much simpler to add priming sugar though, and not clear that there's significant effect on the flavor.

I don't see why they can't do the krausening in a sealed tank. Carbonating the beer in a large tank and then filling the bottles with the fully carbonated beer.

 

[Rev2010]

K, here's two pics of my hefe after only a week in the bottle. I'm not typically impatient but mentioned I wanted to check on the slight sour smell, seems to be dissipating even more now. Funny thing is after one of these I opened a can of Asahi, and interestingly the Asahi tastes flatter than usual. I'm thinking my hefe does have a bit higher carbonation and after 3 weeks should be perfect

Rev.

 

[BeerWars]

No reason to speculate any longer. I am going to mix up a sample and test 4.48 vols in a standard pry-off. Now I have to find a place to safely house my potential bottle bomb for minimal damage / easy clean-up. I'll report back with my findings.

 

[maida7]

No reason to speculate any longer. I am going to mix up a sample and test 4.48 vols in a standard pry-off. Now I have to find a place to safely house my potential bottle bomb for minimal damage / easy clean-up. I'll report back with my findings.

Be very careful. A good friend of my lost one of his eyes to an exploding bottle. The explosions are VERY forceful and the glass can go thru light materials like a bag or even thin plastic.

If they do start to explode. Cooling them will reduce the pressure.

 

[BeerWars]

Be very careful. A good friend of my lost one of his eyes to an exploding bottle. The explosions are VERY forceful and the glass can go thru light materials like a bag or even thin plastic.

If they do start to explode. Cooling them will reduce the pressure.

I'm just doing one at 4.5 vols. Thanks for the heads up. I have it in a plastic container that is wrapped in duct-tape inside a .5 inch thick mug, with a thick plastic cup on top. It is going to be tucked away in the back of a cabinet inside of multiple containers and left alone for a week or so.

 

[emjay]

I'm just doing one at 4.5 vols. Thanks for the heads up. I have it in a plastic container that is wrapped in duct-tape inside a .5 inch thick mug, with a thick plastic cup on top. It is going to be tucked away in the back of a cabinet inside of multiple containers and left alone for a week or so.

A week isn't long enough to be conclusive, it really needs a good 3-4 weeks to hit the highest pressure. Also, disturbing the bottles could potentially send them over the edge, so wear safety glasses (glasses with polycarbonate lenses are probably adequate) when handling them.

 

[Strave19]

I'm just doing one at 4.5 vols. Thanks for the heads up. I have it in a plastic container that is wrapped in duct-tape inside a .5 inch thick mug, with a thick plastic cup on top. It is going to be tucked away in the back of a cabinet inside of multiple containers and left alone for a week or so.

Anything ever come of this? I think doing 3-5 bottles of different brands would give a better indication of the safety of carbing to 4.5. But 1 is better than none!

 

[BeerWars]

Anything ever come of this? I think doing 3-5 bottles of different brands would give a better indication of the safety of carbing to 4.5. But 1 is better than none!

So far so good. No bombs. Which makes me wonder how people get them. If you saw the amount of sugar I added to get up to 4.5 vols you would wonder how anyone would ever have a bomb.

 

[remilard]

But so far I haven't gotten the distinction about home bottling such volumes nor why the BJCP guidelines differ from the actual volumes used by Weissbier Brauerei's.

Rev.

The BJCP guidelines do not give a figure for how much co2 weissbier should have as volumes or grams per liter or anything other quantitative description.

 

[Rev2010]

Either way, I did my own testing and found I personally think 6oz of priming sugar for a 5 gallon batch is perfect for my hefe's. I see no need to go higher in CO2.


Rev.

 

[Banjo]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/carbing-growler-220997/

The thread is about carbonating in a growler, but revvy makes a great post about what is different about filling bottles with pre-carbonated beer versus carbonating in the bottle.

 

[BeerWars]

UPDATE - the experimental bottle did not have any issues after 3 months.

I just carbed a full 5 gallons for 4.5 vols with no bombs (using TastyBrew's Priming Calculator). http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

The bottles used includes Pacifico, Bud American Ale, bombers, Standard longnecks, and Sierra Nevada shorties. Not an issue with any of them.

I cannot believe that anyone gets bottle bombs after seeing the amount of sugar required to get up to 4.5 vols. So far TastyBrew has been good to me!

 

[stat]

so i just bottled a hefeweizen to 4 volumes per the calculator I used. I had no idea that 4 volumes would blow a regular bottle, so far so good, no explosions.

 

[BeerWars]

so i just bottled a hefeweizen to 4 volumes per the calculator I used. I had no idea that 4 volumes would blow a regular bottle, so far so good, no explosions.

I don't think it is possible unless you have a bad bottle.

I do wonder how many vols will make a bottle pop.

 

[motobrewer]

how are people dispensing hefe's at 3.5vols from a keg?

i have 20' of line, 21psi for 3.4 vols and it's still a foamy mess

 

[maida7]

how are people dispensing hefe's at 3.5vols from a keg?

i have 20' of line, 21psi for 3.4 vols and it's still a foamy mess

what size line? 3/16" ID is prefered

What brand of tubing? High quality beverage tubing makes a differance

Is the keg, entire run of line and faucet cold? Any warm spots will create foam

pour with the faucet wide open and pour with the glass tilted.

If you've done all that and you still have excessive foam, just reduce the pressure to serve the beer. Then jack it back up for a day or too if you notice a loss in carbonation.

 

[motobrewer]

yeah, 3/16", bev tube, everythings in the keezer, perlick faucet wide open, tilted glass

i've been purging and repressurizing, it's a PITA. is that what you do? or can you serve at 21psi? if so, how?

 

[maida7]

yeah, 3/16", bev tube, everythings in the keezer, perlick faucet wide open, tilted glass

i've been purging and repressurizing, it's a PITA. is that what you do? or can you serve at 21psi? if so, how?

How is the faucet mounted on the keezer? Could be that the tower is hot.

FWIW I do lower the pressure to serve. Once it's carbed up you can leave the pressure down and bleed as needed to serve. If it's kept cold you will not notice much reduction in carbonation. As soon as it seams under carbed I jack the pressure back up and start over. It's a balancing act for sure. But really not that difficult.

Imagine doing this in a bar with 40 taps. Invariably high carbed beers like Belgians are not poured properly. They usualy foam out and loose all the carbonation when poured on tap in a bar. This is a major reason I prefer Belgians in bottles.

 

[motobrewer]

FWIW I do lower the pressure to serve. Once it's carbed up you can leave the pressure down and bleed as needed to serve. If it's kept cold you will not notice much reduction in carbonation. As soon as it seams under carbed I jack the pressure back up and start over. It's a balancing act for sure. But really not that difficult.

it's not difficult, but it is a pita, and it wastes a ton of gas.

i mean, especially once the beer gets low. purge it, bring it down to 14psi, pour, then fill it back up to 22psi.

in my experience it doesn't take very long for a beer to lose its carb. i mean, if you're havin some people over it works great, but for having 2-3 beers a week you can't leave it low between.

 

[maida7]

it's not difficult, but it is a pita, and it wastes a ton of gas.

i mean, especially once the beer gets low. purge it, bring it down to 14psi, pour, then fill it back up to 22psi.

in my experience it doesn't take very long for a beer to lose its carb. i mean, if you're havin some people over it works great, but for having 2-3 beers a week you can't leave it low between.

It's not as much gas as you think. Besides gas is cheap and great homebrew is priceless.

You could bottle it. Get the carbonation set up the way you like it in the keg and use a beer gun or counter pressure filler to transfer it all to bottles.

 

[Mayday99]

Hmm, wonder how the BJCP guidelines would be off.

I keg my Hefe at 2.7 vols/15psi which is about as much as my system can handle without modification. I like it at that level.

 

[motobrewer]

Hmm, wonder how the BJCP guidelines would be off.

I keg my Hefe at 2.7 vols/15psi which is about as much as my system can handle without modification. I like it at that level.

yeah dude, i donno. for high carbed beer, the variations between reportedly "to style" carb volumes varies drastically. does BJCP give carb volumes? i can't find it if they do

yeah, i could bottle, but i just wanna have a 3.7 vol'd Tripel on tap, and pours perfectly every time

 

[Mayday99]

yeah dude, i donno. for high carbed beer, the variations between reportedly "to style" carb volumes varies drastically. does BJCP give carb volumes? i can't find it if they do

yeah, i could bottle, but i just wanna have a 3.7 vol'd Tripel on tap, and pours perfectly every time

Yeah, according to the BJCP guidelines in Beersmith, it says 2.5-2.9 vols. 15A Weizen/Weiss Bier

 

[motobrewer]

yeah, but i can't seem to find the carb guidelines in the actual style book though

 

[emjay]

Yeah, according to the BJCP guidelines in Beersmith, it says 2.5-2.9 vols. 15A Weizen/Weiss Bier

The BJCP doesn't actually provide those numbers in their guidelines. Carbonation is only defined qualitatively in the written part of a given style guideline. Anything that gives the actual number in volumes and attributes it to BJCP is, at best, an attempt by someone else to quantify the description.

 

[motobrewer]

The BJCP doesn't actually provide those numbers in their guidelines. Carbonation is only defined qualitatively in the written part of a given style guideline. Anything that gives the actual number in volumes and attributes it to BJCP is, at best, an attempt by someone else to quantify the description.

ah yeah, that's what I had thought, but didn't know for sure.

and yeah, that guide gives 2.5-2.9, i've seen others give 3.5-4.0.

 

[maida7]

Carbonate it till it tastes best. If you enjoy it at 2.5 volumes then do that. If you prefer it at 3.5 then do that. It's homebrew and your the brewer, you steer this boat.

 

[motobrewer]

Carbonate it till it tastes best. If you enjoy it at 2.5 volumes then do that. If you prefer it at 3.5 then do that. It's homebrew and your the brewer, you steer this boat.

i'm not really concerned about guidelines, i'm concerned as to how to serve a beer at 3.5 volumes.

 

[maida7]

i'm not really concerned about guidelines, i'm concerned as to how to serve a beer at 3.5 volumes.

yes same here. Bleeding down to serve is working for me.