Heating Saison / Weird Issues

[swinginchandra]

Hi Everybody!
First of all, I've gotten such great use out of reading this site and all the advice on it! Would never have made it through the first few batches without all your help. However I have a problem I'd love some advice / thoughts on now!

So about 2 weeks ago we brewed a Saison using 565 & California Ale Yeast.
It was a Partial Mash - using the simple partial mash technique from this forum, the grain bill / mash schedule as follows:

3# light dry extract
1# vienna malt
1# victory malt
.5# flaked oats
1# honey
2# pale malt
2# pilsner malt
.25# wheat

Hops: don't remember offhand, centennial for bittering, EKG for flavor / aroma. Mostly EKG, target IBUS: 35
60 minute boil, added honey at flameout. Also, it's a basil Saison, so we added a buttload of basil at flameout, if that matters.

Expected OG 1.06 Target OG below 1.01
Mashed between 143 /145 for 90 minutes.
Made a 550 ML starter of the Yeasts
(we used 2 strains at the suggestion of LHBS, because of 565's propensity to crap out)

So fermentation:
Took off quickly, and decently enthusiastically, although no blow off or anything. It was fermenting at about 78 / 80 for the first 3 days - after which the temperature dropped to 74, and all appearance of activity ceased. We took a gravity reading, and it had dropped to 1.02! Yay. Left it for another week, knowing the temp was too low for the saison yeast, but thinking the Cali Ale Yeast would finish it out.
After 1.5 weeks, we took another gravity reading, and unfortunately it was exactly the same... 1.02, so we decided we had to heat the carboy back up, to get that saison yeast going. We roused the yeast, and used a hot water bath to bring the temperature up to over 80 degrees (from 72). The yeasties just took off! Tons of airlock activity, even after a few hours (so not just released Co2, or whatever, and I could see the yeast swirling around like crazy, coming to the top, it looked like the beginnings of a new krausen was even forming).
But here is the weird part - the next morning, all though the carboy was still well in the 80's, and the yeast was still suspended, there was no activity at all, and you could see the yeast starting to drop out again. Took a gravity that night to see how much their frenzy of activity had done, and BOO it was still at exactly 1.02!!!
Roused the yeast again, added more hot water to the bath, with no crazy results this time...

So I'm wondering, was there somehow actually no fermentation with all that perceived activity? I thought I had waited long enough that what I was seeing wasn't just the by product of moving around, and heating up and such.

I know that saison yeasts have a tendency to stop and start, so we're just going to try to be patient, and keep the temperature up, and take another reading next week.

Also, went ahead and brewed a small batch of Edworts Haus Pale Ale on sunday, so if worse comes to worst, we can just rack onto the cake from that next week.

Does this all sound OK? Any comments - specifically on the percieved activity with no actual fermentation... Or any other potential sources of issues you could see with this procedure?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Sounds like your fermentation is done. 1.020 is a common FG when using extract.

 

[swinginchandra]

You think it's possible that there are no fermentable sugars left?
Despite over 50% of the fermentables coming from a long low mash and/or honey?

Being a Saison I'd really like it to dry out much, much further, if at all possible.

 

[wonderbread23]

Bad idea pitching the Cal Ale yeast and saison yeast at the same time. Saison yeast tastes good at high temps. Cal ale, not so much. You'd have been better off letting the saison go for a couple days and then cooling it down to the 60's and letting the Cal Ale finish things off.

You might look into pitching another healthy yeast strain to finish it off... 1.020 is too high for a saison.

 

[Homercidal]

Saison yeast likes to stall out. The higher temp and rousing is what I'd recommend, but it can still work over the course of like 6 weeks, slowly. Normally extract will not drop as far as an AG brew, but I think 1.020 is still a bit high.

I doubt the yeast is dead though. That's just not too much alcohol for them. My advice at this point is to let it sit for a couple of more weeks then check again. As long as youhave been sanitary there should be no problems with infection now, and the extra time will help the yeast clean itself up even if it won't attenuate any further.

If it still has not dropped, then consider pitching a yeast that metabolises the longer sugar chains. There is something that is supposed to help your FG drop a bit more after the yeast has had it's chance. I can't recall what it's called ATM.

 

[swinginchandra]

Thanks guys!
Been keeping up the temperature, and rousing the yeast, and unfortunately its still right at 1.02. It's now been about 3 weeks since we brewed it. Come on yeastie you can do it!
I read about doing a force ferment test on this board, so, curious if there were any fermentable sugars left after the post above about extract finishing high, we pulled out about a gravity samples worth of wort and dumped like half a package of nottingham in it... so we'll see what happens to it!
Meanwhile, the pale ale we brewed has been sitting at 1.02 since Wednesday (all grain batch). Man! When we pulled that sample, I could recognize 1.02 from across the room... Which is frustrating because we were planning on using that cake to help the saison out if we determined that it totally froze. How good is the yeast cake of a beer that didn't finish out all the way??
So now I'm wondering what are issue is, because the last batch also stuck at 1.02... I'm kinda thinking underpitching.
So we roused the pale yeast, and warmed it up... so I guess we'll see where that is next week. And defending on what happens with the fft on the saison, decide where to go with that.

*sigh*

 

[ChshreCat]

As for all the "activity"... Cooler liquids can hold more dissolved gasses, warmer liquids can hold less. So when you warm up your beer, it will start releasing dissolved CO2, so when you warmed it up you could have had lots of airlock activity with little or no fermentation going on.

 

[swinginchandra]

As for all the "activity"... Cooler liquids can hold more dissolved gasses, warmer liquids can hold less. So when you warm up your beer, it will start releasing dissolved CO2, so when you warmed it up you could have had lots of airlock activity with little or no fermentation going on.

Yah, that's what we figured it had to be, I just didn't think it would still be going a few hours later if that was the case. I think also what happened is the water bath wasn't very deep, so the bottom of the fermenter would have been much warmer then the top. I figure the warm water rose,bringing whatever yeast sediment was suspended with it... causing it to look like the yeast was swirling around until the temp evened out. Does that sound logical?

 

[ChshreCat]

Yah, that's what we figured it had to be, I just didn't think it would still be going a few hours later if that was the case. I think also what happened is the water bath wasn't very deep, so the bottom of the fermenter would have been much warmer then the top. I figure the warm water rose,bringing whatever yeast sediment was suspended with it... causing it to look like the yeast was swirling around until the temp evened out. Does that sound logical?

Could be. I think I'd give this time, but if you want to repitch then I would suggest Wyeast 3711 saison yeast. It's a true monster. It'll ferment the carboy itself if you give it enough time.

 

[swinginchandra]

Thanks, that sounds like a great idea!! They don't carry that yeast at my local hbm, so we may order online, and if it still hasn't done anything when it gets here, then would you suggest making a starter. and gradually feeding it our wort so it gets used to the alcohol, or do you think I can just pitch it straight?

BTW the gravity samples taste GREAT!!

 

[swinginchandra]

hmmm, the FFT didn't drop at all. Now I'm wondering if it really was done, or if the yeast I used for it wasn't viable... (dry yeast that was refrigerated.)

The pale is still at 1.02 too, despite being heated and roused...

I think my hydrometer reads a little high though - when tested in tap water it reads about 1.004 (although that could be minerals?).

Oy vey. I think I'ma brew a few small batches soon to try and keep this attenuation problem.

 

[dcHokie]

Also, it's a basil Saison, so we added a buttload of basil at flameout, if that matters.

BTW the gravity samples taste GREAT!!

Is that a metric-buttload? In all seriousness, how much basil did you use and how prevalent is it?

I'm working on a Thai-Basil Lime Saison recipe for a club competition, and I'm looking for a subtle hint of basil to balance out the lime peel

 

[swinginchandra]

We got one of those BIG grocery store boxes of basil. (the ones that are like 6x4x2 in^3) we chopped it finely and added it at the end of the boil. It was REALLY prevalent in the nose and taste until like a month in primary. We dryhopped again with basil and cascade, and it smells like basil soup right not. If I were you id use either much less, or wait probably a few months for the flavor to be subtle.

How soon are you brewing it? I can send you a bottle of the final product if you want to try it and see how strong the basil flavor is!

Incase anyone is curious - we finally transferred to secondary to dry hop and basil, and only then did the fermentation pick up again. It fell to about 1.014 in the first week, which I'm much happier with than 1.02. We warmed the secondary up again, and are hoping for that final push to get it where it should be.
Not so great for the dry hopping, great for the beer...

 

[dcHokie]

We got one of those BIG grocery store boxes of basil. (the ones that are like 6x4x2 in^3) we chopped it finely and added it at the end of the boil. It was REALLY prevalent in the nose and taste until like a month in primary. We dryhopped again with basil and cascade, and it smells like basil soup right not. If I were you id use either much less, or wait probably a few months for the flavor to be subtle.

How soon are you brewing it? I can send you a bottle of the final product if you want to try it and see how strong the basil flavor is!

Thanks for the offer. I haven't brewed it yet, maybe this afternoon or tomorrow night. Not trying to thread-hijack here, but this is the tentative recipe. I'm thinking just a handful of whole leaves thrown in just before flame out, but the idea is a nice balance between the peppery notes of the 3711 & basil and the citrus of the the lime peel/SA's lemongrassy hints.

I'm definitely not going for basil soup aroma or taste.


basil-lime saison
% LB OZ Malt or Fermentable ppg °L
78% 8 0 Belgian Pils info 37 2
10% 1 0 German Wheat info 39 2
10% 1 0 Belgian Wheat info 38 2
2% 0 4 Munich Malt info 37 9
10 4
Batch size: 5.0 gallons

Original Gravity (1.050 to 1.058)
Final Gravity (1.011 to 1.013)
Color 4° SRM / 8° EBC (Yellow)
Mash Efficiency 75%

boil 60 mins 1.0 Saaz pellet 3.5
boil 10 mins 0.5 Sorachi Ace pellet 13.7
boil 5 mins 0.5 Sorachi Ace pellet 13.7
boil 1 min 1.0 Sorachi Ace pellet 13.7
Boil: 6.5 avg gallons for 60 mins

32.1 IBU / 4 HBU
Wyeast French Saison (3711)

boil 5 min 1 oz (handful?) Basil
boil 10 min 1 ounces Lime zest info
boil 10 min 0.5 ounces Whirlfloc Tablet info
boil 15 min 0.5 ounces Yeast Nutrient (BrewVint) info

 

[swinginchandra]

I'm really curious how that will turn out! Have you ever had a basil gimlet? I'm drinking one right now- the combination of lime and basil is great!
One thing we thought about doing was using a basil simple syrup when bottling, but ours is too basily now, so we won't. You could go super conservative in the boil, and if it doesn't taste basil enough at bottling, you could try that! I've never tried it, but its just a thought!
Good luck! I'll let you know how ours tastes after its been bottle conditioned!

 

[dcHokie]

i haven't had a basil gimlet, sounds tasty though. i love the combination of lime & basil, especially in thai food. there is a 'freshness' in that combo that seems like it will play well with that farmhouse funk...i'm hoping they'll end up being restrained flavors/aromas that you have to hunt for throughout a tasting.

I'll dig up this thread and we can swap a few in about a month once i've got mine bottled.