Heating Elements?

[RoosterCogburn]

Hey everyone,

Im looking into using a 5500 watt heating element intended for use in water heaters to boil 5 gallon batches.

The reason for looking at heating elements, is that this is part of a process automation and instrumentation class project and I want to be able to do a closed loop control for the boil.

I have no experience brewing outside of research and would appreciate any feedback.

thanks

 

[RoosterCogburn]

after a bit of searching, I came across this website:

Cedar Creek Brewing Company - Homebrewing Electric Heatstick

I am now waiting for parts to arrive and will be trying a few variations.

Also ordered a USB Arduino microcontroller and will be attempting to interface the heating elements using relays.
Also looking at building an HMI.

thanks for the overwhelming responses

 

[kevin9167]

thanks for the overwhelming responses

After reading your original post again, you didn't post an actual question, so I'm don't know what kind of response you were looking for. Also, you're in a sub-forum that might not get much traffic.

Will they work? Sure.
Do people use them? Yes.
What pieces of equipment are they used in? Electric HLT (hot liquor tank), Electric Keggle (keg made into a brew kettle), possibly others.
How do I regulate temperatures? External thermostat controller, or via your microcontroller.

Just take some time to browse the projects and equipment sections and you'll find a lot of people have done exactly what you're trying to do. There is a wealth of knowledge on this board already, just look a little.

Yep - look for more "heat stick" setups...

Do you have enough power available for a 5500 watt element? It's probably needs 240v. If this is just a "proof of concept", then just use a 120v 1500 watt element. It will work on a standard 15amp outlet. Just my 2cents...

Also - I've come to realize that the search function is not that great, so just use google like so "electric hlt site:homebrewtalk.com".

Have fun!
Kevin

 

[kevin9167]

I have a heating question which is somewhat different. I am thinking of getting a heating base mat to sit under the stage one fermenter bucket (pail) in order to raise the temperature up to around 20 degrees C as it gets cold at this time of year in England - this is dark ale. What do you think about this idea?

Yes - others have suggested this. It may be hard to regulate to a spefic temperature.
Look up brew belt. There's another product that's like a heated blanket, I forget what it's called.
Another common suggestion is to put your fermentor in a cooler filled with water. Drop in an aquarium heater and regulate that to your desired temp.

I'm opting for the cooler + aquarium heater setup. It shoud run me US$40 when I'm done.

 

[RoosterCogburn]

Just take some time to browse the projects and equipment sections and you'll find a lot of people have done exactly what you're trying to do. There is a wealth of knowledge on this board already, just look a little.

I had searched the forums extensively previous to posting this thread. I couldn't find anyone using heating elements for boiling.

It seems that every time I look through the forums I come across different material previously missed. you're right though, I didn't really post any specific question and was a bit vague.

Until I get the heatsticks built and working my main concern is scorching. I don't want to have to continuously stir the wort with the heatsticks.

Anyways, sincere thanks for your reply

 

[slnies]

Rooster,

Take into account that if you were to get a low, or ultra low density element, you can have wort in direct contact without caramelizing the wort. The actual heating will also cause the wort to circulate bringing new wort into contact with the element through out the boil. The heat will create a current. Thermodynamics at its best. Good luck. S.

 

[kevin9167]

Fair enough. Reading everything again, I missed that you wanted to use them for the boil as opposed to in the "overall process." With that said, I can't think of any threads that specifically mentioned their use in the boil...

However, there are several threads that discuss results of different element sizes (or multiple elements) and their ability to bring certain certain volumes to specific temperatures and how long it took. I assume that timing information would be of interest in planning the automation.


Are you planning on brewing a batch on the side? By hand? I'm just curious.

 

[RoosterCogburn]

Are you planning on brewing a batch on the side? By hand? I'm just curious.

Yes, though as a college student my funds for ingredients are limited. We received a few hundred dollars in lab fees for this project and I've quickly used most of that trying to acquire all the components.

I definitely plan on continuing brewing beyond this project.

you're exactly right about the timing- I was throwing around the idea of using a pressure sensor to indicate cold break of the wort, but as for now will just be watching for it.

 

[TimGrz]

Rooster,

Take into account that if you were to get a low, or ultra low density element, you can have wort in direct contact without caramelizing the wort.

I did a search to find out the explanation of what a low density element is. Thought I would put it here for future searches/reference:

Q) "What is the difference between High and Low-density elements?"

A) A low density element tends to last longer. If you are filling a water heater make sure to let all of the air out of the water heater before turning on the electricity to it. It is a good idea to let the hot sides of faucets run for at least a few minute without seeing any air coming from the faucets before turning the electricity back on to the heater.


Q) "What does high, low, and extra low density refer to?"

A) The density refers to the amount of watts per square inch. For example, high density is rated at 150+ watts per square inch, low density is rated at 75+ watts per square inch, and extra low density is rated at 50+ watts per square inch.


I found those, along with some other Frequently Asked Questions answered as well.


Hmm... I'm wondering if a Water Heater Thermostats could be hacked/mod'd to be used as a cheap 240v relay.

/tg

 

[slnies]

I did a search to find out the explanation of what a low density element is. Thought I would put it here for future searches/reference:

Q) "What is the difference between High and Low-density elements?"

A) A low density element tends to last longer. If you are filling a water heater make sure to let all of the air out of the water heater before turning on the electricity to it. It is a good idea to let the hot sides of faucets run for at least a few minute without seeing any air coming from the faucets before turning the electricity back on to the heater.


Q) "What does high, low, and extra low density refer to?"

A) The density refers to the amount of watts per square inch. For example, high density is rated at 150+ watts per square inch, low density is rated at 75+ watts per square inch, and extra low density is rated at 50+ watts per square inch.


I found those, along with some other Frequently Asked Questions answered as well.


Hmm... I'm wondering if a Water Heater Thermostats could be hacked/mod'd to be used as a cheap 240v relay.

/tg

Excellent post. I didn't even think of explaining the differences. Thanks. S

 

[brewjunky]

5500 watts is alot for 5 gallons. You will need to control the voltage to stop boil over. If you use a PID with manual control you can lower the output to the element.

 

[BrewBeemer]

For me it's great to have 5,500 watts for quick temp rise times even for a 5 gallon batch let the PID control it on manual settings. Should you go to 10 gallon brews which will likely happen in time even higher wattage would be greatly appreciated like the use of two elements for 11,000 watts if you have the breaker, amperage and power available. Underpowered electric heating is a long practice in slow torture brewing. Elements are cheap in case a wattage correction is needed for your specific system as no two brew systems are alike or the air temps and wind conditions at time of brewing. Your temp rise time time that you think is a fast may be too slow for me hence different thinking on element wattages we may agree or disagree on.
We are on the same page with the use of electric heating vs propane, natural gas or steam.

Heck the forums administrators or moderators I believe should think about allowing us to add a seperate heating forum with sub sections to this forum for propane, natural gas, electric and steam heating. A section to go directly to for our questions and answers specific to the type of heating system we are interested in.
Any other members feel this way and how it would help you and other homebrewers?
Any administrators or moderators reading this request agree to adding a heating forum section like the Equipment/ Sanitation forum?
Thanks all for reading this reply and request, members please state your opinions on this request. If this request is off base the moderstors could remove my rquest.

 

[Jared311]

This is my preferred heating element:

Camco 02963
5500W / 240VAC
Low Density

Amazon.com: Camco #02963 5500W 240V Ripp Element: Home Improvement

 

[slnies]

Works for me.

 

[slnies]

For me it's great to have 5,500 watts for quick temp rise times even for a 5 gallon batch let the PID control it on manual settings. Should you go to 10 gallon brews which will likely happen in time even higher wattage would be greatly appreciated like the use of two elements for 11,000 watts if you have the breaker, amperage and power available. Underpowered electric heating is a long practice in slow torture brewing. Elements are cheap in case a wattage correction is needed for your specific system as no two brew systems are alike or the air temps and wind conditions at time of brewing. Your temp rise time time that you think is a fast may be too slow for me hence different thinking on element wattages we may agree or disagree on.
We are on the same page with the use of electric heating vs propane, natural gas or steam.

Heck the forums administrators or moderators I believe should think about allowing us to add a seperate heating forum with sub sections to this forum for propane, natural gas, electric and steam heating. A section to go directly to for our questions and answers specific to the type of heating system we are interested in.
Any other members feel this way and how it would help you and other homebrewers?
Any administrators or moderators reading this request agree to adding a heating forum section like the Equipment/ Sanitation forum?
Thanks all for reading this reply and request, members please state your opinions on this request. If this request is off base the moderstors could remove my rquest.

Admit it BrewBeemer! You just like overkill! You like more power! ow ya ow ya ow ya. Grunt grunt. LOL! S.

 

[TimGrz]

You will need to control the voltage to stop boil over. If you use a PID with manual control you can lower the output to the element.

Okay, I know a PID is...

A proportional–integral–derivative controller (PID controller) is a generic control loop feedback mechanism (controller) widely used in industrial control systems. A PID controller attempts to correct the error between a measured process variable and a desired setpoint by calculating and then outputting a corrective action that can adjust the process accordingly.

Which really means, well,almost nothing to me.

I know what a LOVE and RANCO are, basically a input (most often temp) controlled relay of sorts. But have not been able to put 2 + 2 together on the PID. Can someone expand a bit on this please?


I currently have been doing partial mash brewing for about three years now and want to move to a full system. I am on the verge of getting at least one, but maybe two or three 220v runs to the garage for my compressor/welder/* and would be really happy to move away from propane as well to allow me to brew in comfort year round. Plus it justifies the cost of running the electricity a bit more as well.


Thanks.
/tg

 

[slnies]

TimGrz,

A PID is basically a temperature controller like a Ranco or Love control with the added feature that it uses a complex mathematical equation to control the relay. With a Ranco or a Love control it take the temp and then reacts to the information. This is good but, it causes huge over shoots in temp. A PID uses math to look ahead and then make a decision on how it will react to the information it is getting from the thermocouple. What it causes is a fine tuned control over temperature processes. A comparison would be like this: A Ranco is to a PID as a shotgun is to a rifle. Both are great at what they do, one is just more precise. I hope that answers your question. S.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Admit it BrewBeemer! You just like overkill! You like more power! ow ya ow ya ow ya. Grunt grunt. LOL! S.

Nies; for the size of the brewing system I intend to build of 21 to 22 gallons capacity for both the MLT and boil keggles is why I want 11,000 watts of available heating power available at the boil plus a fast heat rise rate. No waiting and pissing around. Once the temps are reached the PID would control one of the 5,500 watt elements to maintain the boil temps. I do not want a underpowered brewing system when building a new system from scratch and i'm not brewing just 5 or 10 gallon batches hence the large wattage numbers I posted. Not overkill vs the volumes I want to brew. Now do you understand where i'm coming from? The HLT will be a 15.5 gallon keggle with maybe two lower wattage elements and like the boil keggle once the temps are reached a PID will control one element to maintain the MLT temps and the circulation pump. This will be a HERMS system. Once built maybe a element wattage correction may be needed for the HLT they are cheap. The large MLT and boil keggles are because I want to able to handle large grain bills like Russian Imperial Stouts that I like without scaling down my brewing batch size due to the limited size of my keggles. I have come up with 18 plus gallon mash volumes on mash charts at 1.25 qt/per lb grain. I would be happy with a balanced system were the HLT, MLT and boil kettle volumes at the end of boil allows me 11 to 16 gallons for the conical fermenter then I can have two or three full corny's for 10 or 15 gallons batches when done. Like I said before a balanced system where keggle volumes allow the correct end result volumes to fully fill the corny's be it two or three of them. Hey it's almost 3:00 am I need my nap only had an hour of sleep last night the pain pills have kicked in the screens a blur. One eye typing here. Strong pain meds, stoned without bier this sucks. Can't have both I want to stay alive.

later brewers.

 

[slnies]

BrewBeemer,

Twenty one to twenty two gallons of beer at a shot, some would call that over kill. You are right, in that 11,000 watts is not a lot for that size of batch. Honestly though, if you are going to go that big, why don't you go the extra mile and do 31 gallon batches? This way you could have a one barrel system. LOL, now I am guilty of overkill. Good luck BrewBeemer, I do want to see pic's of that system when you are finished. Hell, I might even be a little jealous, because there is no way I could get away with building one that size with out upsetting the powers that be. If you catch my drift. Not so much a "hates my hobby" sort of deal, but a "that cost to much" deal. On the bright side though, the SWMBO did get me a Barley Crusher for my birthday. It is awesome. I get a perfect crush every time. S.

 

[BrewBeemer]

BrewBeemer,

Hell, I might even be a little jealous, because there is no way I could get away with building one that size with out upsetting the powers that be. If you catch my drift. Not so much a "hates my hobby" sort of deal, but a "that cost to much" deal. On the bright side though, the SWMBO did get me a Barley Crusher for my birthday. It is awesome. I get a perfect crush every time. S.

Sean; boy did you hit the nail on the head dead center on that last reply on "upsetting the powers that be" and onward statements. On my end it's the "War Department" aka wife that I have to pass thru.

A bit off topic, in one of your photos do I see a piece of a 68-69 Triumph in the photo behind your cooler? Looks like early Norton Roadholder forks, about the same as Matchless used.
PM me when you have some time, I have a few questions and details I want to ask you.
Carl..........

 

[TimGrz]

A PID is basically a temperature controller like a Ranco or Love control with the added feature that it uses a complex mathematical equation to control the relay. With a Ranco or a Love control it take the temp and then reacts to the information. This is good but, it causes huge over shoots in temp. A PID uses math to look ahead and then make a decision on how it will react to the information it is getting from the thermocouple. What it causes is a fine tuned control over temperature processes. A comparison would be like this: A Ranco is to a PID as a shotgun is to a rifle. Both are great at what they do, one is just more precise. I hope that answers your question. S.

Gotcha. A PID is a smart controller. And as long as we don't plug it into SkyNet we'll be okay.

I am guessing that there are both stand alone and computer controlled models? So are there popular choices in PIDS like the LOVE and RANCO we often see posted here?

/tg

 

[BrewBeemer]

This is my preferred heating element:

Camco 02963
5500W / 240VAC
Low Density

Amazon.com: Camco #02963 5500W 240V Ripp Element: Home Improvement

That's also my first choice for heating elements, the only problem I may run into is the installation as they are 7.6" wide each and i'll have two of 'em screwed into each keggle.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Gotcha. A PID is a smart controller. And as long as we don't plug it into SkyNet we'll be okay.

I am guessing that there are both stand alone and computer controlled models? So are there popular choices in PIDS like the LOVE and RANCO we often see posted here?

/tg

Check into auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry for a PID selection. My credit card can not be in the same room while i'm on their thread.

 

[slnies]

I got my Watlow's on Ebay for about $40.00

 

[Bobby_M]

The elephant in the room that noone mentioned to the OP yet unless I missed it is... are you aware of the power requirement of such a large element? I'm not sure if this is a hypothetical design excercise or if you really have to build it but you're looking at a large 240v breaker.

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

Yeah Bobby, and one should make that a Large GFCI breaker, which for 30A runs about $90! Alternately, consider a life insurance policy.

 

[RoosterCogburn]

I'm using 2 2000 watt 120V elements (camco high density)

will I still need an inline GFI?

I don't have much of a budget and haven't ordered one yet.

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

It's not about the size The GFCI device protects you should you something happen that would cause electrical shock.

Any outlet that is within 3 feet of a water fixture (e.g. kitchen, bath) must have these by code.

The good news for you is you could run your 120 line into some type of junction box that holds 2 x 20 amp GFCI's, that are commonly available at a Lowes/HomeDepot/etc store.. Be sure to get the 20 Amp ones. They should be ~$20 each.

 

[z987k]

Just thought I'd throw in my experience with this thread, ad I brew exclusivly with electricity and have for about 6months now.

My HTL is one 3800W high density 240V element hooked up to a PID so I can regulate the temperature. From there the mash tun is your standard 10 gal cooler, with no heat source, but I can raise temps just fine with boiling water infusions. Decoctions do present a problem with this system, though and to do that, I have to pull off the volume and use a separate pot on my stove.

The boil kettle is a sanke keg with a 5500W extra low density, with a stovetop controller to bring the boil down once it reaches a boil. Go to a junkyard and pull a stovetop controller from an old stove, it's the cheapest 240V heat controller you'll ever find.

This does 5 and ten gallon batches with no problem. And it's a lot cheaper than propane, and it never runs out.

I've got an excel sheet that calculate time to boil or time to temp from starting temp given a wattage and efficiency.

For example 7 gallons to boil from 150 on a 5500W element with 95% eff takes 12 minutes.

Or the 11kW with 30gallons(starting volume?) from 150 takes 26minutes. Honestly, you might want to think about getting more power. 25kW would be more to my personal liking. But now we're talking some serious amps with the need of big expensive breakers and thick expensive wiring. (btw at these volumes I think electric brewing starts to lose it's appeal very fast.)

Oh and even as important as the gfi IMO, attach your grounds to the kettle. Do not do how every pos home electrician does and leave the ground alone.

 

[Brewing Clamper]

Just thought I'd throw in my experience with this thread, ad I brew exclusivly with electricity and have for about 6months now.

My HTL is one 3800W high density 240V element hooked up to a PID so I can regulate the temperature. From there the mash tun is your standard 10 gal cooler, with no heat source, but I can raise temps just fine with boiling water infusions. Decoctions do present a problem with this system, though and to do that, I have to pull off the volume and use a separate pot on my stove.

The boil kettle is a sanke keg with a 5500W extra low density, with a stovetop controller to bring the boil down once it reaches a boil. Go to a junkyard and pull a stovetop controller from an old stove, it's the cheapest 240V heat controller you'll ever find.

This does 5 and ten gallon batches with no problem. And it's a lot cheaper than propane, and it never runs out.

I've got an excel sheet that calculate time to boil or time to temp from starting temp given a wattage and efficiency.

For example 7 gallons to boil from 150 on a 5500W element with 95% eff takes 12 minutes.

Or the 11kW with 30gallons(starting volume?) from 150 takes 26minutes. Honestly, you might want to think about getting more power. 25kW would be more to my personal liking. But now we're talking some serious amps with the need of big expensive breakers and thick expensive wiring. (btw at these volumes I think electric brewing starts to lose it's appeal very fast.)

Oh and even as important as the gfi IMO, attach your grounds to the kettle. Do not do how every pos home electrician does and leave the ground alone.

Dude, could you PLEASE post pics of your setup so we can drool over it? I'm currently working on my eKeggle but I didn't think to put a controller on it.