Heating Elements?

[lustreking]

Dude, could you PLEASE post pics of your setup so we can drool over it? I'm currently working on my eKeggle but I didn't think to put a controller on it.

I too am interested in looking at your stovetop controller for your kettle. I never considered something like that. I've been thinking about programming a microcontroller to trigger an SSR.

 

[jkarp]

+3

This is exactly what I've been thinking of doing.

 

[TimGrz]

Not to

here... but being that a PID and something like a LOVE are so comparable in price, when is one preferred over the other? ...and why?

/tg

 

[BrewBeemer]

The elephant in the room that noone mentioned to the OP yet unless I missed it is... are you aware of the power requirement of such a large element? I'm not sure if this is a hypothetical design excercise or if you really have to build it but you're looking at a large 240v breaker.

My 2 pole 50 amp 240 volt breaker fits in my panel it's no wider than the 20, 30 and 40 amp 2 pole breakers. As far a high cost for large amp GFI breakers I paid after tax $48.92 for a GE 50 amp 2 pole 240 volt GFI breaker, THQL2150GF1. This thu Ace Liquidating Company a coupe years ago. They buy end of job extra electrical materals off construction sites at a low bid offer. Not only new but used breakers all tested before sold.

Boby_M, yes i'm aware of the power requirements of two 5,500 watt elements on at 11,000 watts when heating up. Not a single element like you posted above, a single 11,000 watt element would be a whopper. This is for a future planned system build not a just a hypothetical design exercise as you stated above.

slnies; Yes i'm wanting some BTU's heating for my system going electric heating but nothing compared to the 120,000, 180,000 210,000, 240,000 plus advertised rated BTU output burners that sound like a aircraft jet engine roaring many propane heated systems forum member use and stated using a 15.5 gallon keggle for 5 or 10 gallon batches. Those "overkill" 11,000 watts times 3.41499 converts to 37,564 BTU's and that's at 100% efficiency which will be a little less for sure like a 5% loss. I want to be able to heat and net a full 15 gallons for 3 corny's after the fermenter with a large volume boil keggle. I hate those long wait slow temp rises that I have read about on this forum and seen in operation.
Looking at the 37,564 BTU's times 95% efficiency of 35,686 BTU's looks rather small compared to all the propane burners BTU ratings
that are advertised.

As mentioned above why not go to 31 gallons, that's too large for my needs, wants and design. The 21-22 gallon MLT and boil kettles size will allow me plenty of head space above the mash and boil kettles liquid level when a 18-19 plus gallon mash volume is required. I did see a AG demo brew at a LHBS that used those 50 litre MLT and boil pots that had less than 1/2" from the top of pot with only 1/4" liquid above the grain bed then attempted a fly sparge resulting in a lot of liquid on the floor. A quick opinion was made on that system. The same manufactured 50 litre imported boil pot was used with little head space left with a boil over that followed. Another AG different LHBS with keggles I watched a Russsian Stout with a big grain bill filled to the MLT's brim, again my opinion go larger for big grain bills if that is what you like to brew. That would include me. After this second viewing I knew I would not be happy hence coming up with a 21-22 gallons design of total volume I came up with for more MLT and boil volume plus head space. My thinking it would be nice to be able to boil 19 plus gallons down and still have 16 for the fermenter. Later to fill 3 corny's with 15 gallons total not a partically filled third corny. This capacity of a brew system would allow me to make full 15 gallon net, 10 or 5 with this design. Larger manufactured kettles are way to expensive for my liking why pay hundreds of dollars on something I can make as I have the kegs besides the larger diameter of these pots open surface area vs a 10" or 12" opening cut on a keggle maintaining a smaller volume of boil off within what is needed.

I have a larger GFI breaker available if needed free besides #12 to #2/4 SOO cord handy, a couple hundred feet of each size in storage.
Welders and brewing system will take up a large amount of the large size S00 cords, I had future plans when I took these free cords home. The pack rat in me.


Below not related to OP thread reply just something I just wanted to add;
The cords were a free for the asking at the end of a 3 1/2 year job. Temp power SOO cords just dusty from car and truck exhaust in ventilation ducts 7' x 22' cement over time. As many as 7 runs x two tunnels over 3,900' long each were yanked out with a tractor and headed to the scrap yard. A state Cal/Trans highway job where time vs cord value wasn't an issue, they, Cal/Trans already paid for the SOO cords. On a multi million dollar job over 100, cords were not an issue. I collected what I wanted before it was ripped out into shreds. I took many loads to scrap with the companies 5 ton truck with my crew. Over $83K in SOO cord alone not counting the #12 to 250 MCM removed the year before for "$47K in scrap. The company wanted half plus the cost of the diesel used. Best part we were paid on company time then split the money amongst the crew. This only after the crew was scaled way down, a little greed kicked in with the original foremen and crew members. My share went to a new 251 Mig w/30A gun and two 280 cu/ft bottles owner owned for the Tig and Mig, kids college bank accounts, family Hawaiian vacation plus $2,500 for homeless battered mothers in my town. I'm not a total cheap bast**d / A-hole it comes from the heart. Easy come easy go plus karma. To spend my money on a high dollar manufacrured brew unit is where I draw the line, no way.
Moderators, if this is way off forum topic and needs to be removed do so I respect your opinions.

 

[ChemE]

Okay, I know a PID is...



Which really means, well,almost nothing to me.

I know what a LOVE and RANCO are, basically a input (most often temp) controlled relay of sorts. But have not been able to put 2 + 2 together on the PID. Can someone expand a bit on this please?

Ranco and Love controllers use what is called bang-bang control. Temperature is too cold = full on; temperature is too high = off. No finesse whatsoever. A proportional integral derivative controller keeps track of how the system responds to a control action and uses the rate of response to take a carefully controlled corrective action.

Think of it this way, if your set point is 170F (HLT perhaps) and the water temperature has been rising 1F/sec (crazy I know) and the current temperature is 169.9F, the bang-bang controllers keep the heat on because the temperature is still below the set point. A PID controller would have been watching the temperature rise and slow down in order to minimize overshoot.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Just thought I'd throw in my experience with this thread, Do not do how every pos home electrician does and leave the ground alone.

[OUOTE=z98k;921881] I do not know who your are or where you live nor do I care. in my 31 years as a Union Electrician mostly Indusrtial and Commercial, residential was always a a can of worms due to home owners not knowing what they're doing I believe that statement you posted "every pos home electrician does and leaves the ground alone" This is a PRETTY WILD AZZ Statement, you live in the sticks? These are in my kind words be thankful, done with rant no reply needed or returned. This is why I never took any of those 80% pay scale residential jobs just during the apprentice programs required hours. Got my lifetime collection of mains, GFI's and breakers for my use plus what I have collected over the years
to keep my different breaker panel manufactured breakers handy for my rental properties.

Bobby_M & slines; I can't spell it out any plainer with what size system I want to build that can handle 19 plus gallons in the MLT with a large grain bill with 22 gallons total for MLT's head space plus can handle in the Boil Kettle 18 plus gallons again in a 22 gallon boil kettle for some head space allowing room from having boilovers while still having enough gallons after chilling before the fermenter. What I designed would allow me up to 15 gallons in three corny's fully filled not less even after thermal shrinkage and a couple trub and yeast dumps, I may do a 10 gallon batch and fill two corny's or a small batch to fill only one 5 gallon corny. A system without volume limits or problems before I even get this build started.
Design and build smart only once saves money and time.

Where the 30 gallon and 31 gallon full barrel came from I have not a clue or intrest including the temp rise numbers, totally useless for me.
My big 11KW heating becomes rather small in BTU's for boiling down 18 or 19 gallons with only 37,554 BTU's @100% or 35,676 BTU's @95% efficency. Seems rather small in BTU's vs those monster 200,000 BTU propane burners are producing.
I'm done with thread completly, nothing more to add I spelled it out the best I could on what I want to build. If you still don't understand those are the type of people we sent back to the hall as bench warmers.

 

[brewjunky]

I am using a PID from auber instruments that has a manual mode on it. It cost like 45 dollars.

In my boil kettle im using a 4500 watt Hot water tank heater element. In my herms HLT I use a 3000 watt Hot water tank element.

I do not not run a GFCI but my kegs are all grounded and everything is grounded well. At some point I may splurge and get one but at this time I don't see a need for it.

During my boil i use the PID in manual mode and lower it to 76 after I get a boil this keeps a nice rolling boil.

This makes everything a lot easier instead of wiring up stove controls.

I'm using 25 feet of 3/8's copping soft tubing for my coil and in my mash tun I'm using a self made bazzooka T.

I have never had any clogging in the coil at all and I have done about 3 batches now.

The only thing I would like to do it up the 3000 watt HLT heater to a 5500 or 4500 to increase the speed of my step mashes.

It was cold the other week around 40 degrees and I was able to go from 122 to 150 in about 25 minuets. Both kegs are insulated .

With a larger heater I would significantly increase the time. I just used the 3000 watt because it was given to me for free. I will probably get a 5500 watt next year when I start using the rig again.

I'm using standard garden hose QD for my rig. They work good not great but they get the job done.
I will most likely splurge next year and get some good ones.

One thing that I will also upgrade is my hoses. I'm using braided beverage line hose 1/2.

when they get hot they really loose there strength and can kink. I will most likely upgrade to a high heat tubing

 

[slnies]

Brewjunky,

Silly monkey GFCI's are not because you need them, they are for the "**** that happens". You don't intend to drop something electrical in water, and wires do not intend to come loose, but "**** happens". So you are clear, a breaker is to save the wire and wiring that it supplies with power, it will not prevent a killing shock. Infact a GFCI does not even ensure that you won't receive a shock, just that you won't die from it. Plus one for creating a proper grounding plane though. Brew on, dude.

 

[Gregredic]

I got my Watlow's on Ebay for about $40.00

Mind if I ask what model you bought?

 

[slnies]

Mind if I ask what model you bought?

Nope, I don't mind at all. SD-6C... If you want the rest I can get you that to, I would just have to go and take a look. The SD series is quite nice, it took about three months of hard bidding to get it for the price that I wanted. Completely worth it though.

 

[Gregredic]

Nope, I don't mind at all. SD-6C... If you want the rest I can get you that to, I would just have to go and take a look. The SD series is quite nice, it took about three months of hard bidding to get it for the price that I wanted. Completely worth it though.

I would be very interested in your setup. I have been putting a lot of thought into my ekeggle for the last 4 months.

 

[slnies]

I would be very interested in your setup. I have been putting a lot of thought into my ekeggle for the last 4 months.

Well, My system is the midst of transformation as we speak. I am Beta testing a new brewing control module, but I can tell you how it was originally set up. I have PID that has two class C relay out puts and a type K thermocouple. I have a control box that contains the PID and a switch for the pump motor and a box for the SSR and the wiring disconnects for the heating element, the pump, and of course the main plug. The PID is connected to the SSR which is a 40amp 120V control, 40-480v output, omeron. That is the electrical.

I fill it with water, turn on the pump, and then set the temp on the PID to the strike and wait 15 to twenty minutes. Just enough time to measure out the grain and crush it. S.:rockin:

 

[BrewBeemer]

BrewBeemer,

Twenty one to twenty two gallons of beer at a shot, some would call that over kill. You are right, in that 11,000 watts is not a lot for that size of batch. S.

What was reply posting number 15 on page number 2 above all about? You been zapped too many times today? Come on slnies your smarter than that I know you are.

That 21 to 22 gallons is the Total Volume of the MLT and boil keggle, reread I stated it takes 18 plus gallons in the MLT (For a Imperial Russian Stout) that I want to brew at times plus still allowing some head space of 4 gallons above. Same with the boil kettle with 4 gallons of head space above during the boil. To fill to the brim of 22 gallons in the MLT and boil kettle sure sounds like a foolish idea. You not thinking before typing, just a wise crack reply or got zapped to many times today? Sorry I do not appreciate those non common sense replies. You can keep your "that over kill" for those those larger volume 55 gallon batch brewers vs normal 10 gallon brewing batches or more for up to 15 gallons net in the corny's is what I want just three full corny's at times. That "some would call that over kill" is your words. I'll give you credit on one thing, 11,000 watts is not that much power only app 35,565 BTU's from electric energy is not anything like 180,000 or 210,000 plus BTU propane burners many brewers use. Insulation on all three of my kegs will help with the lower BTU's input i'm working with. Never judge another brewers ideas be it not to your standards or way of thinking i'm not you but we all have our own different building ideas. The one common thing is bier at the end of brewing process. Done venting on another brother wireman. I.B.E.W.595 retired. Cheers brother.

 

[Douglefish]

Does anyone know if the low density heating elements prevent a good whirlpool?

 

[keiths]

No I use Ultra Low Denstiy 4500 w and get a great rolling boil with 12 gal.

 

[Gregredic]

Are you talking about stirring the wort to get a good whirlpool after the boil in order to have the cone of trub? If you are, the element will prevent a good cone.

 

[evanmars]

I do not not run a GFCI but my kegs are all grounded and everything is grounded well. At some point I may splurge and get one but at this time I don't see a need for it.

Let's hope that you never see the need. I don't suppose you have health insurance, home owner's insurance, auto insurance, etc. either? You don't need them until you need them.

 

[Douglefish]

Thanks for the good reply, I am thinking about converting to electric, but still want to whirlpool my wort to keep the cold and hot break in my kettle. Anyone have any ideas?

 

[diatonic]

Thanks for the good reply, I am thinking about converting to electric, but still want to whirlpool my wort to keep the cold and hot break in my kettle. Anyone have any ideas?

I have not done anything electric with my brewing, but I wonder if you could use 2 smaller elements mounted on the bottom of the kettle, diametrically opposed in a vertical mounted position and keep them out of the way enough to get a good whirlpool. Just a thought.

 

[Gregredic]

It would still disrupt the whirlpool effect, but you would be able to create a little of it. Are you that concerned with the trub getting into your primary?

 

[BrewBeemer]

If you went with indirect heating the inside of your keggle would be smooth for your circulation and the cold break cone build up. Add a slow rpm stir motor with flat paddle blade set 6" off the bottom causing enough wort circulation to create a cone for your clean drain off to your fermenter.

Add your available wattage and volume to one of those Boil Time Calculators for a fully electric brewing system you will see it's a totally different ball game in temp rise times vs heating with propane.

 

[Douglefish]

I'm not that concerned about break in the fermenter, but it makes it a lot easier to harvest the yeast if there isn't as much junk in the yeast cake. I also thought about making a heat stick like apparatus to stick down into the keggle for the boil. It's not quite as clean, but then I could just remove it and then whirlpool.