Heady Topper

[theveganbrewer]

I have been contributing, but you haven't been all ears. You've been combatative.

Even with evidence that there was a possibility the head brewer was purposefully misleading the public. Yet you fall back on what you heard from him. Let me ask, was this direct candid information from his mouth to your ear? Or third party speculation?

I'm not sure there is any evidence of misleading the public, I merely presented my information back some 20-25 pages ago with the disclaimer that it was a possibility that he was misleading us, even thought I didn't suspect it and still don't. This was direct information.

 

[bobbrews]

I merely presented my information back some 20-25 pages ago with the disclaimer that it was a possibility that he was misleading us, even thought I didn't suspect it and still don't. This was direct information.

Hmm... so you traveled from Oregon to VT, became good aquaintances with the head brewer, had a long in depth conversation about HT, learned all about his system and processes, and yet you still have major issues coming close to the flavor profile of this beer and don't want to listen to anyone's advice about how to maybe do things a bit differently to achieve the results you desire?

*Scratches head*

Time to leave. Good luck boys.

 

[Pappers_]

Interesting conversation. In these sorts of discussions, its sometimes helpful to keep things impersonal - don't refer to the other poster, just to the points being raised. Especially if you find yourself going back and forth with someone in particular and it starts to feel too contentious. And, as mentioned above, sometimes its best just to step away from the computer for the night. No one ever wins an argument on the internet.

I've got to find some of this Heady Topper to try.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Hmm... so you traveled from Oregon to VT, became good aquaintances with the head brewer, had a long in depth conversation about HT, learned all about his system and processes, and yet you still have major issues coming close to the flavor profile of this beer and don't want to listen to anyone's advice about how to maybe do things a bit differently to achieve the results you desire?

*Scratches head*

Time to leave. Good luck boys.

No, he read the same interviews, blogs and articles that I and many others did. Many of which contained information straight from Kimmich's mouth to the interviewer, and one that was written by Kimmich himself. I don't know where you're getting your information, though I have my suspicions, but those of us actually brewing this beer have gotten ours from researching this beer, brewery, other breweries that have been associated with Kimmich. Vegan's info is spot on, and probably second only to that one could glean from having a few beers with Kimmich himself.

Really, I'm biting my tongue quite a bit because I've come to see a pattern in your posting on this and other threads, but I do need to say that in this thread in particular, you may be a bit out of your league. This isn't just something you can cut and paste standard advice in hopes that it helps. We've all done our homework on this beer and are in the process of dialing in a clone recipe (by BREWING). If you've ever done a clone, you know that it takes many attempts to dial in the recipe to exactly replicate the beer in question. It's not just a matter of wham bam there's your clone man.

 

[passedpawn]

Stop the bickering.

You can make a point on an internet forum, but others don't have to take your advice. That's the deal. Restating it repeatedly is pointless.

Good thread, but if I have to start snipping I will cut deep to get rid of the bickering and some useful information will be lost. So please, let's be civil and respectful of other's opinions.

[edit] I've got to find me some of this HT.

 

[TNGabe]

You keep saying you're bowing out and then posting again. I don't have a dog in the fight, but maybe it's time to take a step back for the good of the thread.

Like I said. Have fun.

There's really no such thing as cloning a beer anyway. But by all means, continue to rack your brains. At best, you'll get something similar. However, it seems that vegan hit a solid brick wall in regard to limiting the fruity/juicyness that's coming out in his attempts despite being the resident pro on HT. Let's be honest - You know fairly little about this beer other than the ingredients, and it would appear that to gain more accuracy, your processes need some work. I thought that I would recommend upping the earlier additions to combat the overwhelming fruitiness, but like most homebrewers, they think they know everything because of what's regurgitated over and over in these threads that is simply not true - (i.e. 30 minute additions are useless, if you use big bittering additions you'll never have a smooth beer, every addition before 20 minutes offers no flavor or aroma, or that there are specific and measurable points in a hop schedule that are even designated toward bitterness/flavor/aroma, which is completely preposterous). If you want to start calling out patterns... then mimicking what others say and taking it at face value certainly a huge one on these forums! But continue to be "hard-headed" and I'll continue to be "in-over-my-head" and yet brew IPAs better than the both of you because I don't limit myself.

 

[DangerRoss]

Let's take the time to refocus on the real goal here people. We don't need to argue. We NEED to clone!

kaz4121 compiled and linked the sources for what we collectively know about this beer.

Between the HBT and BA threads I’ve summed up all the pertinent information regarding a Heady Topper clone. Keep in mind much of this information is heresay, but I tried to credit the member and link to the page which contains the claim. If I am missing something please let me know, as I think this post has been veered off topic a bit lately.

Anything italicized is linked directly to John Kimmich, his workers, or The Alchemist Brewery in general.

Beer Specs:
Style: American Double India Pale Ale (The Alchemist Brewery website)
OG: ~1.070 (bobbrews and skivtjerry)
FG: ~1.010 (bobbrews and skivtjerry)
ABV: 8% (The Alchemist Brewery website)
IBU: 120 (The Alchemist Brewery website), 80-90 Rager (bobbrews), 75-80 lab tested (theveganbrewer)
SRM: 4-7 (theveganbrewer, koopa, and Airborneguy)

Malt:
Base: Thomas Fawcett Pearl (bobbrews and nathanjohnson)
Specialty: NO Crystal (theveganbrewer, mmonacel, and sweetcell)
Adjunct: ~5% or less sugar (orthellomcbane and skivtjerry)
*Other possibilities may include: Wheat, Munich, Carapils*

If similar malt bill to El Jefe, could contain Pearl, Caramalt, Carafa Special III (ChrisNH)

Hops:
6 varieties used (theveganbrewer, bobbrews, and Petekiteworld)
Known: Simcoe (bobbrews)
Likely: Columbus, Chinook, Centennial, Cascade, Amarillo, Summit, Nugget
Possible: Riwaka, Moteuka, Ahtanum, Galaxy, Zythos, Apollo
Not used: Citra (bobbrews and theveganbrewer)

Yeast:
Conan Yeast (private strain) (MSNBC article and theveganbrewer)
Yeast culturing: here and here
*Most of aroma comes from yeast (theveganbrewer)*
*Could be ale yeast (theveganbrewer), lager yeast (TapeDeck), belgian yeast (Signpost Brewing and the Mad Fermentationist, or blend (terrapinj)*

Process:
Mash Temperature: < 150F (bobbrews and orthellomcbane) probably a step mash (bobbrews)
Boil: NO FWH (theveganbrewer)
CO2 hop extract for bittering (theveganbrewer, BeerCrafter2011, and mmonacel)
All "actual" hops added at 5 minutes or less (theveganbrewer)
Post-boil: Big whirlpool (theveganbrewer)
Fermentation temperature: 58F at brewery (Skelator), 68F on sign (theveganbrewer), 60-64F from experience (Knecht_Rupprecht, SkinnyPete, NordeastBrewer77, and orthellomcbane)
Yeast Attenuation: ~82% (bobbrews, orthellomcbane, Skelator)
Dry-hopping: Double or triple dry-hopped for only several days each (mmonacel)
Hopback: Used prior to packaging (Petekiteworld)
*It is not can-conditioned (LaFinDuMonde)*

Entire length from kettle to can: 2-3 weeks (theveganbrewer)

Similar Beers (to help with recipe formulation?): Lagunitas Hop Stoopid, Ithica Flower Power, Surley Abrasive, Kern River Citra DIPA

 

[Coff]

This is brutal to follow.

 

[Coff]

I am starting to wonder if we need a new thread here, just a bit of a reboot with all of the important information in the OP. Most specifically Kaz's roundup post that was just quoted.

I think I am going to go for attempt 2 on Saturday, just deciding this now. I also will be distributing some Conan slurry to folks in my club so I will have a few versions to compare side by side in due time.

 

[FermentNEthinG]

Let's take the time to refocus on the real goal here people. We don't need to argue. We NEED to clone!

kaz4121 compiled and linked the sources for what we collectively know about this beer.

Damn, I have been pawing through this thread trying to find that post again...Thanks!

This thread may need closure and a redirect to the recipes/ingredients.

New Title:

Can you clone it? ..::Headie Topper::.. Information and Discussion.

imho ofcourse

 

[FermentNEthinG]

Coff beat me to it, my bad!

 

[FATC1TY]

I agree. There where I was going back a couple pages.

A recap of recipes used, schedules and mash..

I'm wanting to pinpoint if people are getting the peachy orange flavor and aroma from Amarillo, or the Conan yeast.. I'm suspecting amarillo in there.

Simcoe, Chinook, Cascade, Amarillo, Columbus , Centennial... Those are the 6 hops I believe are being used.

Simcoe/Chinook/Columbus will all get a layered level of pine. Chinook, Simcoe will get the danky-ness to it. Centennial also gives a wee bit, but less than others. Amarillo also gives a dirty sock earthyness as well.

All will toss out citrus fruit notes used at certain times.

I'm just wanting to get a clean slate of whats been done and what is close and not close. I should have some Conan coming shortly and will certainly be firing up the kettle.

 

[Xpertskir]

Sometime next week Im going with

5.5 gallon batch

12.5 lbs pearl
1 lb corn sugar
12 oz golden oats

mash 149


bitter with warrior to 60ish

nugget, amarillo, simcoe, centennial, Columbus, Cascade

moderate addition at 15

large at 5

larger for 30 minute whirlpool starting at 185

conan 58 for the first few days, moving up to mid 60's to finish ferm.


I just fermented an American wheat and even at 58 conan is a beast.

 

[dbennett78]

Just made a batch of IPA (not a complete clone attempt) to use my harvested Conan yeast last Thursday. The Conan is definitely a beast and I think it is almost fermented out already after 5 days at 62. Going to do a gravity sample this weekend to check and then dry hop. It smells very good from what I can tell.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Ok, so now that that's settled... I'll be racking my clone into the keg for the second dry hopping this afternoon. ~3 ozs; simcoe, centennial and columbus. With any luck, I'll be sipping on something similar to HT next week sometime.

 

[TNGabe]

Ok, so now that that's settled... I'll be racking my clone into the keg for the second dry hopping this afternoon. ~3 ozs; simcoe, centennial and columbus. With any luck, I'll be sipping on something similar to HT next week sometime.

Don't lie. If it's close to Heady and you have 5 gallons on tap, you'll be chugging not sipping!

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Don't lie. If it's close to Heady and you have 5 gallons on tap, you'll be chugging not sipping!

I already know that the keg is gonna kick within a week of tapping.

 

[chutracheese]

Fatc1ty and Initybrew

http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/product_p/extractco2cans.htm

This is where I got my hop extract and made my own hopshots.
Just in case you are interested or it helps.

 

[Xpertskir]

Fatc1ty and Initybrew

http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/product_p/extractco2cans.htm

This is where I got my hop extract and made my own hopshots.
Just in case you are interested or it helps.

interesting. Where/what syringes did you buy?

Maybe I can get my GF to bring them home from work.

 

[Coff]

For those who cannot get hop extract, or dont want to hunt it down, I used Magnum on my clone and I found that to be "sufficient" as a clean bittering hop. Love Magnum actually, use it to bitter 90% of my beers so I might be biased.

I did however have the same issue Vegan had wrt to the "clone" being too fruity (mine is a grapefruit bomb) with not enough pine/dank. I am going to give this another shot on Saturday night at a small scale since this is one expensive batch of hops. I plan to dial back the Amarillo a little bit and replace it with more Simcoe and ommit the Nugget and go with Chinook instead. I'll post my updated recipe later today or tomorrow.

 

[mewithstewpid]

Fatc1ty and Initybrew

http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/product_p/extractco2cans.htm

This is where I got my hop extract and made my own hopshots.
Just in case you are interested or it helps.

i definitely recommend yakimavalleyhops.

great prices, fast shipping. all around great.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

interesting. Where/what syringes did you buy?

Maybe I can get my GF to bring them home from work.

You might be able to pick them up at a pharmacy, some states allow you to get those w/o prescription. Your LHBS may have them as well, if they carry hydroponic growing supplies like the ones around here do.

 

[theveganbrewer]

Yakimas extract come in syringes, I've ordered there before. They don't come with caps though.

I'd be down to start a new Heady Topper- Can You Clone It type thread in the recipe area. Maybe we can start it with the summary post we had there?

 

[Xpertskir]

You might be able to pick them up at a pharmacy, some states allow you to get those w/o prescription. Your LHBS may have them as well, if they carry hydroponic growing supplies like the ones around here do.

heroine addicts get them for free....what about hop addicts?

 

[chutracheese]

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/search/?q=yakima+valley

This is where I got the idea and I bought empty syringes off ebay.

Thanks VEGAN also - got the yeast today. Looks like I have something fun to do this weekend!

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Yakimas extract come in syringes, I've ordered there before. They don't come with caps though.

I'd be down to start a new Heady Topper- Can You Clone It type thread in the recipe area. Maybe we can start it with the summary post we had there?

Yeah, the ones I got didn't have caps either, they we just put back into the sleeve they came in and then sealed in a bag.

Xpert, there's always that option, but it might cut into your drinking and brewing budget a tad.

 

[theveganbrewer]

heroine addicts get them for free....what about hop addicts?

If you're a true addict, you should definitely taste it before putting it in the beer

 

[Xpertskir]

If you're a true addict, you should definitely taste it before putting it in the beer

LOL...sounds like aversion therapy.

chewing a pellet with around 13%AA is bad enough I cant imagine 61%AA good stuck to your tounge

 

[HawksBrewer]

I don't have much to contribute to this thread as far as experience (I've only ever had one HT and it was by far the best DIPA I've ever had) but I do appreciate all of the legwork you guys are doing to get this clone off the ground. It looks like a lot of progress has been made (much to the chagrin of a certain 'bitter' poster). Did anyone else get a chance to look at the HT clone recipe in the new BYO magazine? The guy used simcoe, cascade, centennial, apollo, columbus, chinook and citra. I know citra is out of the question since HT was around before citra was released, and Kimmich has compared it to a sledgehammer, but there are 6 in there otherwise. Who knows? If it's not a clone, I'm sure it turns out a tasty DIPA nonetheless. Of course, I would sub the yeast w/ Conan if I could.

 

[Xpertskir]

BTW, I was doing some research the other day and came across this thread.

http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?28064-Hop-Utilization-of-Whirlpool-Additions

The long and short is that they are calculating for 10-20% utilization(and IBU contribution) with whirlpool additions. Something to think about with such a large amount of whirlpool hops and an IBU target.