theveganbrewer
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Yes, I brew with it, that's my LHBS. All my clones have used that hopjizz.
Heady Topper
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Yes, I brew with it, that's my LHBS. All my clones have used that hopjizz.
theveganbrewer
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The only reason I haven't put amarillo in there is because I hate it. I have hated every beer I've ever tried that uses amarillo. I don't know why, but I just do. The other thing is that he uses 6 hops, and Simcoe is the most prominent. It's got to have simcoe, and a lot of it. '
Not sure if I'm going to get a response, but I did email Alchemist and asked them straight up if Amarillo is in there.
Really????? Along with Simcoe and Citra, it's one of the three most used late addition hops in American IPAs. Amarillo is full of mild floral grapefruit and sweet juicy peach.
Some beers that use a decent amount of it...
Green Flash Hop Head Red
Green Flash Palate Wrecker
Ballast Point Sculpin
Founders Red's Rye
Alpine Duet
Surly Furious
Kern Just Outstanding
Bear Republic Hop Rod Rye
Brooklyner-Schneider Hopfen-Weisse
Three Floyd's Gumballhead
Ninkasi Tricerahops
Odell Myrcenary
Lagunitas SUCKS
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Hate them all :cross:
Not really, but I hate every beer I've had that is prominently Amarillo. This clone attempt without Amarillo does not lack peach or grapefruit, in fact, it has too much IMO.
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theveganbrewer
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I can say that I only liked Lagunitas Sucks on that list, haven't had all of them, but I think almost all. I had a bunch of 3F stuff last week and loved it all except Gumballhead. I didn't know until now it was all amarillo.
Wow, that may explain why you're searching for more dank pine in a Heady clone... because a part of you desires those flavors more as opposed to fruity citrus. No harm in that. I would prefer Pliny to be less sweet and caramelly despite only having a weak 4% C45 and finishing at 1.010/11.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
or because it actually tastes like that. I have done blind taste panels with other homebrewers and friends and everyone says the same thing. Heady is more piney than the clone recipes we've got here.
Haha... mayhaps. Our own self-fulfilling prophecies are known to alter reality.
For me, HT is full of citrus and fruit. The dank pine is there, but it takes a backnote. The clone recipes may taste less piney, but that doesn't mean the real beer is primarily piney.
For me, HT is full of citrus and fruit. The dank pine is there, but it takes a backnote. The clone recipes may taste less piney, but that doesn't mean the real beer is primarily piney.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
and the 5 other people who did the test? I am not a professional beer judge, so the way I describe aromas may not be by the traditional definition of them. For example, my pine may be totally off, and dank is an aroma that means different things to different people. All I can say for sure is the recipes given are too fruity and don't have enough dank pine. I know what that means to me, but it might not really be pine, or dank, other people might call is something else, like earthiness or spice.
The clones that everyone has done I think have all come out plenty fruity, tropical, etc. They are lacking in that piney, dank, resinous flavor.
Too fruity, in my experience, is when homebrewers forget the importance of early and middle additions, and simply pound everything out at flameout and dryhop. I used to be one of those brewers. And that method yields fruity hop juice with little complexity. It has less to do with the hop choice and more to do with the hop schedule/amounts.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
You keep going on about middle additions when we know Kimmich doesn't do them. I don't need a lesson on hop additions, thanks.
I don't understand why you're getting mad. Totally non-combative here and I respect you as a brewer. Your dedication and advice in this thread has been invaluable.
We don't all know that Kimmich does zero middle additions. But if you say so.
That still doesn't mean he neglects early additions. You may be bittering early with only 35 IBUs, whereas he may be tripling that.
We don't all know that Kimmich does zero middle additions. But if you say so.
That still doesn't mean he neglects early additions. You may be bittering early with only 35 IBUs, whereas he may be tripling that.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I know how much he bitters with hop extract and when he does his additions.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I do know how much he bitters with and when the hops go in. That's why the discussion for the past month as been on hop variety and dry hop.
Wouldn't it make sense that if you don't know this information, and all of your clone attempts are turning out too fruity/juicy, that the head brewer is bittering with more hops and using a different array of hops than you're selecting. You also hate Amarillo yet don't deny that the real HT uses a decent amount of it.
It's not a fight. Trying to be helpful here with my brewing experience. But vegan is the supposed expert on this beer since he brewed what he thinks to be a clone two times and still has major concerns. Hoping to answer some of his concerns that still remain.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
No one here has said they know what hops are used. That's where we are at in the clone build right now. There have been like 5 attempts to clone this by different people, most have only tried once, I've only done it twice. Not like we're striking out 100 times here.
I'm wondering how much you have followed the thread, what info do you know about the recipe so far? I feel we're going back and forth over things we've already come to a conclusion on in earlier posts.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
from the head brewer
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Maybe you misread my post. I assumed you have been following this thread, so you saw the posts before where we knocked out some of the details of the recipe.
No, I haven't read the past 90 pages in the past week and been fully refreshed on each and every single post. I have read the parts that matter though and have been commenting since early on. Still, I don't take everything someone says about this beer, or have heard about this beer, at face value and believe it wholeheartedly. That would be quite naive.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Well, I thought we had also talked about some of the details of the recipe over PM, so that's why I have been confused by some of your input in the last hour. I understand the need to think outside of the box, but I don't think the recipe is that far off. It was stated a while back that this recipe is based off of discussions with the head brewer and that there was a possibility he was purposefully misleading us.
"Far off" is relative.
You may have 75% of it, but that doesn't mean you have a clone. That's more like a fraternal twin.
It's the remaining 25% that's unbeknownst to you, and irritating you beyond measure. Yet you are unwilling to hear any constructive criticism of how doing things a bit differently may yield better results.
libeerty
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Easy, guys. It's not really fair to declare the pine vs. fruit debate over, nor is it fair to challenge whether it's okay for someone to dislike a particular hop. This is a thread on a forum for ppl to discuss clone attempts. No one has any more right than anyone else to be here. Some think piney. Some think fruitier. Some know amarillo might be in it but choice not to use it anyways, etc.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I am all ears man. I am working within the framework given by the head brewer.
I have been contributing, but you haven't been all ears. You've been combatative.
Even with evidence that there was a possibility the head brewer was purposefully misleading the public. Yet you fall back on what you heard from him and are still dissatisfied with the outcome. Let me ask, was this direct candid information from his mouth to your ear? Or third party speculation?
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