Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[bobbrews]

Pliny is highly hopped late as well, so apples to apples. It still matters. If you bittered it with a fruity or tropical hop instead of CTZ, your palate would sense it. I have played with different bittering hops for several IIPAs of an otherwise identical base recipe and noticed a huge difference. But scottland is our resident Pliny expert. I'm sure he would agree.

 

[FATC1TY]

Pliny is highly hopped late as well, so apples to apples. It still matters. If you bittered it with a fruity or tropical hop instead of CTZ, your palate would sense it. I have played with different bittering hops for several IIPAs of an otherwise identical base recipe and noticed a huge difference. But scottland is our resident Pliny expert. I'm sure he would agree.

Not trying to be difficult here. But it's not apples to apples unless you've had pliney hopped with different extract. Have you ?

If I hopped a big beer with magnum and another with chinook I'm pretty confident most people wouldn't be able to tell me which is which in a beer that I slam with late citrusy and piney hops.

 

[dbennett78]

Where do the breweries get their hop extract? I dont see it on the malt distribution site, but I would imagine they would need alot of it for large batches

 

[bobbrews]

it's not apples to apples unless you've had pliney hopped with different extract. Have you ?

If I hopped a big beer with magnum and another with chinook I'm pretty confident most people wouldn't be able to tell me which is which in a beer that I slam with late citrusy and piney hops.

Not for Pliny, which is why I mentioned scottland. But I have tested the theory for similar homebrewed IIPAs with simple grists and a dry finish. I always add a ton of late additions and still a notice different character when going with a different bittering hop.

Never tested Magnum & Chinook. But Magnum is really nothing like Chinook, so I'm sure I could tell the difference. Chinook is like 30% or more cohumulone on average with flavors of pine, must, and grapefruit. Magnum is in the mid 20's cohumulone and very clean & stripped of character to begin with aside from some grassiness.

 

[cscade]

Based on my own experience, I agree that different bittering hops used only at early additions in a beer that is heavily late hopped as well are still different and detectable.

I don't know how much character carries over to extract based on my own experience, but my assumption is plenty. i.e. a "CTZ" extract would impart a detectably different flavor than a Galaxy extract, when each was used exclusively for early bittering.

 

[scottland]

I agree with bob that you will notice a difference between Magnum and Chinook. I am assuming a nice clean fermentation. Those differences will hide behind a poor ferment.

You could interchange Magnum, Warrior, Apollo, Bravo, Nugget, or Horizon, and probably not notice anything, but once you start talking about Chinook, CTZ, or any other hop that has a rougher bitterness, you'll taste it.

It probably goes without saying, but the less bittering hop you use, the harder it would be to tell the difference. In a beer like Pliny, where you are targeting 150+IBU from the bittering addition, it makes a huge difference. In a beer like Union Jack, where you are targeting like 40-50IBU from the bittering addition, it would be much harder to taste.

Looks like you guys are targeting a pretty small addition at 90min. 12-14AAU. For reference, Pliny has a 50AAU bittering addition at 90min, and 10AAU more at 45min. I'm not terribly sure how much difference you'll notice between bittering hops on a beer like this when we're talking about 12-14AAU. Side-by-side you might pick it up, but I doubt it will make or break the beer. It's certainly not something I would waste my time worrying about.

 

[bobbrews]

Despite a few of us thinking HT is all late additions 15-0-DH... I will be targeting a hefty addition at 90, along with a ton at 0 and DH. I know vegan was adding 80-100 IBUs early on, too.

I was always under the belief that the majority of IBUs in HT was from the 90 minute hopshot. I'm hoping to get my hands on the NZ blend for this particular addition.

 

[theveganbrewer]

Would be an easy question to ask for those going to the brewery. "What is hop extract?" Could elicit a response that gives us an idea what's in there. I don't really think the beer is off for these reasons, but I would like to check off every box. Since were getting 70-100ibus from it, its worth investigating.

There is also twitter and Facebook where we could have 1 person ask and might get a response..any takers?

 

[theveganbrewer]

Despite a few thinking HT is all late additions 15-0-DH... I'm targeting a hefty addition at 90, along with a ton at 0 and DH. I know vegan was adding 80-100 IBUs early on too.

Yeah I've moved steadily up from 70ibu originally to now about 100.

 

[scottland]

I'm looking over the proposed recipe above. I really can't help much with the hop-profile, but I can help with in a couple areas:

100IBU hopshot @60 minutes (Use about 10-15ml at this addition. That will get you close to 100IBU. That's equivilent to 20-30AAU or 1.5-2oz of a 15% hop)

5 minute addition- 1 ounce of Simcoe
2 min addition- 0.5 Amarillo, 0.25 each of Centennial, Columbus, Nugget, Chinook

(While not completely out of the question, I doubt they climb up a ladder to add hops at 5min, 2min, and again in the whirlpool. I would recommend un-complicating this. Assuming roughly 3oz of hops added to the kettle late (5-15min), and another 3oz of hops that are whirlpooled (possibly added at flameout depending on how their brew house is setup. That is 1lb/bbl for each addition. You've got 8.5oz between the two additions, I would assume a little less

Whirlpool (30 minutes from 180-160)- 3 ounces simcoe, 1 ounce Amarillo, 0.5 each of Centennial, Columbus, Nugget, Chinook

(I added your late kettle additions, and your whirlpool additions together, and it broke down to: 4oz Simcoe, 1.5oz Amarillo, and .75oz ea of Centennial/CTZ/Nugget/Chinook. That's 47%, 18%, and 8.5%x4(35% combined) respectively. If we keep those ratios the same, but target 6oz total, you get 3oz Simcoe, 1oz Amarillo .5oz ea Centennial/CTZ/Nugget/Chinook. So basically, take your Whirlpool addition, split it in two. Add half with somewhere between 5 and 15min left, and add the other half at flamout (to then be whirlpooled for 20min), or however you want to replicate their whirlpool addition. )

 

[eandersen]

Would be an easy question to ask for those going to the brewery. "What is hop extract?" Could elicit a response that gives us an idea what's in there. I don't really think the beer is off for these reasons, but I would like to check off every box. Since were getting 70-100ibus from it, its worth investigating.

There is also twitter and Facebook where we could have 1 person ask and might get a response..any takers?

I'll take a stab on twitter. Just ask about the extract or the hop bill in general?

 

[scottland]

I'll take a stab on twitter. Just ask about the extract or the hop bill in general?

Have they said they use hop extract? I only ask because it would seem like a question out of left-field if they haven't.

 

[eandersen]

Have they said they use hop extract? I only ask because it would seem like a question out of left-field if they haven't.

That was my thought as well...if they haven't said it publically odds are they'd put two and two together

 

[FATC1TY]

Ask how bitter HT is, and how do they get it so bitter.

 

[theveganbrewer]

I'm looking over the proposed recipe above. I really can't help much with the hop-profile, but I can help with in a couple areas:

100IBU hopshot @60 minutes (Use about 10-15ml at this addition. That will get you close to 100IBU. That's equivilent to 20-30AAU or 1.5-2oz of a 15% hop)

5 minute addition- 1 ounce of Simcoe
2 min addition- 0.5 Amarillo, 0.25 each of Centennial, Columbus, Nugget, Chinook

(While not completely out of the question, I doubt they climb up a ladder to add hops at 5min, 2min, and again in the whirlpool. I would recommend un-complicating this. Assuming roughly 3oz of hops added to the kettle late (5-15min), and another 3oz of hops that are whirlpooled (possibly added at flameout depending on how their brew house is setup. That is 1lb/bbl for each addition. You've got 8.5oz between the two additions, I would assume a little less

Whirlpool (30 minutes from 180-160)- 3 ounces simcoe, 1 ounce Amarillo, 0.5 each of Centennial, Columbus, Nugget, Chinook

(I added your late kettle additions, and your whirlpool additions together, and it broke down to: 4oz Simcoe, 1.5oz Amarillo, and .75oz ea of Centennial/CTZ/Nugget/Chinook. That's 47%, 18%, and 8.5%x4(35% combined) respectively. If we keep those ratios the same, but target 6oz total, you get 3oz Simcoe, 1oz Amarillo .5oz ea Centennial/CTZ/Nugget/Chinook. So basically, take your Whirlpool addition, split it in two. Add half with somewhere between 5 and 15min left, and add the other half at flamout (to then be whirlpooled for 20min), or however you want to replicate their whirlpool addition. )

Great breakdown, but nobody jump in on the recipe just yet. This is just a test for the new parameters and adding Amarillo for the first time (for me). There are some things untested yet. I think based off what I've read of other people's attempts, that the Amarillo is very subtle, so I put in a little extra so I could see if I could notice it at this level.

 

[theveganbrewer]

That was my thought as well...if they haven't said it publically odds are they'd put two and two together

The only reference I can find on the brewer and hop extract is for the collab brew they did with Stone a couple years ago. They used super galena hop extract. I guess that might work as a line of questioning, something along the lines of "do you use the same stuff to bitter heady that you used in More Brown Than Black IPA."

 

[eandersen]

@Ericcentric812: @alchemistbeer do you guys use hop extract for bittering HT a la more brown than black ipa? Wanna try some new ways of bittering here
Tweet sent ill keep you posted if I receive a response

 

[LakesideBrewing]

Imo if youre not using hop shot you should be using Warrior or Magnum, if you use Simcoe to bitter you'll be throwing off the clone attempt a bit. I used Magnum in mine and the bitterness is close.

Thanks for the info!
I only chose Simcoe because I had them, and that is what BYO clone attempt used. If I have time I might go pick up some Magnum.

 

[whitehause]

I haven't messed around with my Pliny, but i did try an addition of Magnum for bittering my Zombie Dust instead of the FWH with Citra (I make a lot of this and was trying to conserve some Citra) and the difference was very noticeable. I went back to FWH with Citra.

 

[theveganbrewer]

A turn of events, I have the yeast available again. PM for details. Will be ready on or before March 5th.

 

[libeerty]

Just tested the FG and sampled my Haus Pale Ale with Conan and Simcoe (3 oz)... holy fruit, Batman! I use Simcoe with 001 a lot, so it is awesome to be able to see the difference between 001 and Conan! I know a bunch of you are way ahead of me, but I like having a steep learning curve because the beers along the way are going to be awesome.

Only problem I encountered is my attenuation was 87% instead of the predicted ~82%. I doubt the range gets up that high, right? I mashed at 152 per Haus Pale Ale recipe. Maybe my thermometer is off and I actually mashed at a different temp? Definitely doesn't have any sort of an off-taste, but when I see a FG of 1.006 I get nervous.

**Edit: I see Vegan has had some very high attenuation, too, so I probably should have adjusted this recipe more to account for a higher-attenuating yeast. What a monster!

 

[theveganbrewer]

Just tested the FG and sampled my Haus Pale Ale with Conan and Simcoe (3 oz)... holy fruit, Batman! I use Simcoe with 001 a lot, so it is awesome to be able to see the difference between 001 and Conan! I know a bunch of you are way ahead of me, but I like having a steep learning curve because the beers along the way are going to be awesome.

Only problem I encountered is my attenuation was 87% instead of the predicted ~82%. I doubt the range gets up that high, right? I mashed at 152 per Haus Pale Ale recipe. Maybe my thermometer is off and I actually mashed at a different temp? Definitely doesn't have any sort of an off-taste, but when I see a FG of 1.006 I get nervous.

**Edit: I see Vegan has had some very high attenuation, too, so I probably should have adjusted this recipe more to account for a higher-attenuating yeast. What a monster!

I have never had less than 85, it's crazy. What did you ferment at? I'm interested to see what I end up with on my 1 gallon test, underpitching, and mashing high. I want to see just how strong it is. I am doing this batch at 67, if I get so much fruit again, I'm taking it down into the mid to low 50s on another 1 gallon batch.

 

[libeerty]

i have never had less than 85, it's crazy. What did you ferment at? I'm interested to see what i end up with on my 1 gallon test, underpitching, and mashing high. I want to see just how strong it is. I am doing this batch at 67, if i get so much fruit again, i'm taking it down into the mid to low 50s on another 1 gallon batch.

62.

 

[vgps]

has there been any discussion about water treatments? i know in the mitch steele IPA book for the alchemist El Jefe recipe they point out targeting 400 ppm hardness and 50 ppm alkalinity, if memory serves.

 

[EyePeeA]

I believe for any type of IPA, high hardness is good, high alkalinity is bad. You want to keep alkalinity as low as possible. Hardness is Calcium + Magnesium, but you want way more of a Calcium concentration than Magnesium. At levels beyond 20 ppm, Magnesium can begin to taste sour/bitter. Using Gypsum helps to increase Calcium levels, and it also offers some Sulfate to boost the hop bite.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

has there been any discussion about water treatments? i know in the mitch steele IPA book for the alchemist El Jefe recipe they point out targeting 400 ppm hardness and 50 ppm alkalinity, if memory serves.

That's a pretty good point. Helluva first post on HBT too, welcome!! I'm sure we will have to take water into consideration at some point, to some extent. For now, as we're working on the recipes, I've just been treating my water with a bit of Burton salts (gypsum and chalk) like I normally do for an IPA. Works for me, but we have hard water to begin with.

 

[gcdowd]

That's a pretty good point. Helluva first post on HBT too, welcome!! I'm sure we will have to take water into consideration at some point, to some extent. For now, as we're working on the recipes, I've just been treating my water with a bit of Burton salts (gypsum and chalk) like I normally do for an IPA. Works for me, but we have hard water to begin with.

Not to get off topic, but I also have hard water and for IPAs I use gypsum in the boil. Do you use gypsum in your mash water? I never have since my water ids hard but maybe I should.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Not to get off topic, but I also have hard water and for IPAs I use gypsum in the boil. Do you use gypsum in your mash water? I never have since my water ids hard but maybe I should.

I do not. My water is difficult enough to keep the pH in check for such a light grist to begin with. I add the salts for the boil to for hopping, though I'd guess for a beer like this I don't really need to, it's just become the norm for my hoppier beers.

 

[bobbrews]

Gypsum very minimally decreases pH and moderately increases alkalinity. It is more soluble in cold water and is a beneficial addition for pale, hoppy beers.

Chalk very minimally increases pH and moderately increases alkalinity. Chalk doesn't dissolve well at all. Because of its limited solubility it is only slightly effective when added directly to the mash. I wouldn't advise using chalk for a pale IPA anyway. In addition to not dissolving well, it will cloud your beer.

 

[gcdowd]

I do not. My water is difficult enough to keep the pH in check for such a light grist to begin with. I add the salts for the boil to for hopping, though I'd guess for a beer like this I don't really need to, it's just become the norm for my hoppier beers.

Ok so I'll stick with the boil only. Brewing a pliny clone this weekend

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Ok so I'll stick with the boil only. Brewing a pliny clone this weekend

For Pliny, I'd use the Burton salts very sparingly. Pliny's a bomb, for sure, but I'd guess that the water used isn't extremely hard, so if you have decently hard water that may be enough. Play around with it and see. PtE is a fun beer to brew.

As for Burton salts in Heady, I'm not sure if it's needed, but it's just become part of my IPA brewing regimen. I think the best plan, if you're going for perfect Heady Topper water, would be to start with distilled and build up to the water used at the brewery. I have a water genius in my home brew club that I will consult on building water once we get these recipes dialed in a bit more. I'll definitely post my findings on that.

 

[eandersen]

Lookin like no luck on twitter. No response yet and they have tweeted since I asked. Ill give Facebook a try later

 

[LarvalCraze]

Hey guys. Hopefully this isn't too off topic. I made a pale ale from some Conan that I harvested, and I am currently rinsing the yeast to pitch in a headyish clone attempt. However, I'm kind of stumped. The lightest layer (which looks like the yeast) is at the bottom and there is a darker layer on top. Most pictures I've seen of yeast rinsing show the yeast on top. Any thoughts? I'm thinking about pitching the whole thing.

 

[whitehause]

Hey guys. Hopefully this isn't too off topic. I made a pale ale from some Conan that I harvested, and I am currently rinsing the yeast to pitch in a headyish clone attempt. However, I'm kind of stumped. The lightest layer (which looks like the yeast) is at the bottom and there is a darker layer on top. Most pictures I've seen of yeast rinsing show the yeast on top. Any thoughts? I'm thinking about pitching the whole thing.

I've seen this happen with Belgian strains. They tend to clump together and drop quicker than the trub. Not saying that's the case here, but there has been talk of Conan being a Belgian hybrid.

 

[LarvalCraze]

I've seen this happen with Belgian strains. They tend to clump together and drop quicker than the trub. Not saying that's the case here, but there has been talk of Conan being a Belgian hybrid.

Interesting. I guess I'll just pitch the whole thing.

 

[whitehause]

If it's not a ton of trub, I don't see a problem pitching it all.

 

[divrguy]

I disagree. Pliny bittered with Magnum, Citra, or Pacific Gem vs. CTZ would be a vastly different beer. Flavor is certainly a factor with every hop addition... especially if you're using a lot of early hops to attain the bulk of your IBUs. The intensity and overall character is different, but bittering hops are not simply providing a blank slate of flavorless IBUs.

I thought bitter is bitter. If you're getting all of your bittering basically from the first addition, doesn't seem that there would be any flavor contribution from any other late hop to the bitterness profile.

Ill agree with that to some degree. In a beer highly hopped late for flavor and aroma i am seriously doubting the overall flavor is changed enough by the bittering addition to be noticed at all.

In a simple ipa. I can taste the slightest difference in a beer I use magnum and a beer I bitter with the same hop used in flavor and aroma. I'm putting 5 or so ounces of total hops in there. Not a huge quantity by any means to dilute the whole process like we are here.

When you are adding the flavor additions which are contributing to the bitterness, that's a whole different story.

Not trying to be difficult here. But it's not apples to apples unless you've had pliney hopped with different extract. Have you ?

If I hopped a big beer with magnum and another with chinook I'm pretty confident most people wouldn't be able to tell me which is which in a beer that I slam with late citrusy and piney hops.

Again, I agree. I don't think the bittering is really that much of a question unless all of the bittering or a significant amount of it is contributed by all of the other additions. Just my 2 cents

 

[nsap]

Sorry to interrupt what looks like a pretty heated bittering debate but I just picked up some HT today and started a culture.

Although I don't know exactly when it will be ready for shipping out (I just started the culture today) I'd like to do what I can to contribute to the effort so if anyone else needs conan let me know.

Also, as another vegan and brewer I'll take any excuse to go to the montepelier co-op.

Oh the joys of living in Vermont.

 

[namyarb3]

Sorry to interrupt what looks like a pretty heated bittering debate but I just picked up some HT today and started a culture.

Although I don't know exactly when it will be ready for shipping out (I just started the culture today) I'd like to do what I can to contribute to the effort so if anyone else needs conan let me know.

Also, as another vegan and brewer I'll take any excuse to go to the montepelier co-op.

Oh the joys of living in Vermont.

Wanna be my new best friend?

 

[nsap]

Wanna be my new best friend?

...I mean, that seems like a pretty generous offer. I'm suspicious though that you're just using me for the beer.