Heady Topper- Can you clone it?
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paulster2626
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Do I need a stir-bar to start growing this yeast? I only ask because mine fell down the drain, and I'm too lazy to open the trap - who knows what scary things are in there...
Is it literally as easy as:
-make x amount of wort
-dump in an oz or 2 of beer
-wait x days
-make y amount of wort
-decant first batch and dump yeast in to new y wort
-lather, rinse, repeat
I just use yeastcalc for this, right? Never stepped-up yeast before as I just make 2L starters right from the get-go.
Is it literally as easy as:
-make x amount of wort
-dump in an oz or 2 of beer
-wait x days
-make y amount of wort
-decant first batch and dump yeast in to new y wort
-lather, rinse, repeat
I just use yeastcalc for this, right? Never stepped-up yeast before as I just make 2L starters right from the get-go.
Nice, that recipe looks like it's gonna make some Heady fvckin' Topper man. I like the changes. So, you're just going with one hop stand on the tepid side? Think the one just below boiling is a good idea or am I just wasting hops at that point?
Paul, I wouldn't say you need one, but it'll help. If you're not using one, start off really small and low grav, like 250ml of 1.020 wort for the first step, then 500ml of low grav wort before jumping up to regular starter strength (1.040). I was able to harvest just fine without a plate, but I'm glad I got my little ghetto one built. I'm building up more Conan and it's working like a dream on the plate.
PseudoChef
Well-Known Member
I haven't had Heady, but I've been doing sub-170F stands for a couple months now (on APA/IPA type beers). I personally don't feel it affects flavor/aroma as much as mouthfeel. The sub-170F stand preserves a lot of the resinous "chew" of the hop character in the beer (so, indirectly affecting those qualities, I guess...)
If HT has this resinous quality, I would say the sub-170F stand is critical to get that.
If HT has this resinous quality, I would say the sub-170F stand is critical to get that.
Awesome, thanks for that.
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theveganbrewer
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Having fresh heady and a few different clone attempts side by side really helped. Add to that getting some solid info from Alchemist helped as far as OG/FG and hops. I hate amarillo, but the clone attempt with amarillo is delicious, it really works with Conan and the other hops well. Plus adding the caravienne changed the beer for the better. I guess fixed would be the right word, it made everything else work together better. The 1-gallon tester I did with all the changes (same recipe as on 28, just scaled down to 1 gallon) was so much closer to the real thing.
Nordy- Extended hopstand in those lower temps was to get some more resin out of the hops, what PseudoChef was talking about. I think that load of hopshot at the beginning is enough bittering and gives some freedom in the whirlpool where we don't have to try and get bitterness out of those additions.
Paulster- Was it you who said you had 42 Heady's? Would you be able to do a 2nd test on the FG? You'd have to spare 4 ounces or so if you don't have a refractomer. I have a refractometer coming back to me maybe by the end of the week and will test again.
Nordy- Extended hopstand in those lower temps was to get some more resin out of the hops, what PseudoChef was talking about. I think that load of hopshot at the beginning is enough bittering and gives some freedom in the whirlpool where we don't have to try and get bitterness out of those additions.
Paulster- Was it you who said you had 42 Heady's? Would you be able to do a 2nd test on the FG? You'd have to spare 4 ounces or so if you don't have a refractomer. I have a refractometer coming back to me maybe by the end of the week and will test again.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Check back on my results from the 1-gallon tester. I'd would consider changing your recipe to combine the BYO recipe and mine on the grain side. Can't say I'm 100% on the hops, your choice probably as good as any. Up to you if you want to trust the two of us and our sources and information on the grain bill and other info. I'd be interested in your recipe with the following parameters:
Target gravity 1.074-1.014
No oats, munich, wheat
SRM 5.7-5.9
Yeah, Idk. I'd be more interested in a lower FG with pearl and 3-5% each malted oats, malted wheat, torrified wheat, and lightly toasted vienna over caravienne. I've brewed hundreds of IIPAs FG and 1.014 seems too high for me on the palate for this particular beer. Where are you getting the 5.7-5.9 SRM? HT is slightly darker than Pliny the Elder. I thought HT was more like 7-8 SRM. The real beer has a kind of orange tinge to it, which I attribute to more than just 4 oz. of caravienne for a color contribution, as well as a good 90 minute boil for further caramelization.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
With the disclaimer that what the recipe ends up at and what beersmith tells me are different, I have tried 5.2, 5.7, 5.9, and 6.2 on the attempts and 6.2 was too dark and 5.2 was too light. I thought my 5.7 and 5.9 were identical to real thing.
I don't find the 1.014 final gravity sweet. Not sure why, but it tastes right with just pearl and caravienne.
I don't find the 1.014 final gravity sweet. Not sure why, but it tastes right with just pearl and caravienne.
Just to touch base again on the mash schedule...
Pearl Malt has a low diastatic power of only 58. That's less than double the diastatic power of American 2-row at 140-160. We tend to mash IPAs with a high % of American 2-row for only 60 minutes. But something with a heavy Pearl malt base seems that it would require more like a 90-120 minute mash, with more beta amylase focus in the upper 140s (F) for full conversion and good fermentability.
It is possible and sensible that the mash schedule is more like 147 F for 60 minutes for the Beta-Rest, then 155 F for another 40 minutes for the Sach-Rest.
Pearl Malt has a low diastatic power of only 58. That's less than double the diastatic power of American 2-row at 140-160. We tend to mash IPAs with a high % of American 2-row for only 60 minutes. But something with a heavy Pearl malt base seems that it would require more like a 90-120 minute mash, with more beta amylase focus in the upper 140s (F) for full conversion and good fermentability.
It is possible and sensible that the mash schedule is more like 147 F for 60 minutes for the Beta-Rest, then 155 F for another 40 minutes for the Sach-Rest.
FWIW, Noonan recommends (for modern malts) a two-step infusion mash (when not decocting, of course) at ~130*F and an unspecified higher sacch rest. Purely idle speculation, but I am going to try 130/148 with a Golden Promise/sucrose malt bill. Not because I think it clones Heady (which I haven't had), but because I think it might provide a nice body for an IIPA.
Johnnyhitch1
Well-Known Member
On a side note just jumping in here again was away for past couple days and need to reread the Thread
Saw violently fermenting tanks on saturday @71 which were 72 today still blowing off into the collection tank
Crashing row was @55 on sat 48 on monday
IMO temps have a lot to do with conans esters. I just brewed a 3gal batch @64 and im getting absolutely no peach, or "conan" from it. My steep went pretty bad so its lacking that punch for a clone. Just disappointed in the yeast. I read in a earlier post someone mentioned that kimmich can tell the yeasts "generation" by smell and receives a new lab batch every 3 months, makes me think there on the end of this generation regarding my next concern...
Also picked up 2 cases and i have to say when i cracked the first one tnite i wasn't "blown away" like i usually am.
It had a slightly sweeter palate with a slight lingering tinge that i usually font get from heady.
I decided to take a refractometer sample and using 16.87 Brix as a SG i got 8.97 from the can.....1.014FG????
Not sure whats going on there. Seems pretty high considering we nailed it down at 1.010
Time for bed. Killer trip home, Hit me up for cans. ISO Dipas, piney/citrus black ipas, oak aged, big belgians, Firestone limiteds/barrelworks
Saw violently fermenting tanks on saturday @71 which were 72 today still blowing off into the collection tank
Crashing row was @55 on sat 48 on monday
IMO temps have a lot to do with conans esters. I just brewed a 3gal batch @64 and im getting absolutely no peach, or "conan" from it. My steep went pretty bad so its lacking that punch for a clone. Just disappointed in the yeast. I read in a earlier post someone mentioned that kimmich can tell the yeasts "generation" by smell and receives a new lab batch every 3 months, makes me think there on the end of this generation regarding my next concern...
Also picked up 2 cases and i have to say when i cracked the first one tnite i wasn't "blown away" like i usually am.
It had a slightly sweeter palate with a slight lingering tinge that i usually font get from heady.
I decided to take a refractometer sample and using 16.87 Brix as a SG i got 8.97 from the can.....1.014FG????
Not sure whats going on there. Seems pretty high considering we nailed it down at 1.010
Time for bed. Killer trip home, Hit me up for cans. ISO Dipas, piney/citrus black ipas, oak aged, big belgians, Firestone limiteds/barrelworks
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
If you go back a couple pages I made a post about the real target gravity being 1.014, I also changed the recipe recommendations on the front page to be 1.074-1.014 based on those findings and verification from John that 1.014 is indeed target gravity. Glad you could also add your findings.
Johnnyhitch1
Well-Known Member
Awesome. Glad i could help.
PseudoChef
Well-Known Member
Might be able to get you FW 16 if that's on your radar. Also could get 50/50 Eclipse. I'll check my store tomorrow and PM you if you're interested.
ftfy. Good idea to extend rests with low DP.
Thanks. I've been thinking about this more and more. A 15 min acid rest at 100-105 F for the pearl malt base (plus the optional oat malt, wheat malt, torrified wheat, toasted vienna), followed by an extended 90 min beta-amylase mash at 145-147 F, then increased to the alpha range at 156-158 F for 20 min to end beta conversion seems like a perfect idea. It might not be exactly what Kimmich does, but possibly very close. I don't think he's doing an acid rest, but he may want to look into it considering the haziness issue with Pearl malt. This mash schedule will help to create a very fermentable, clearer beer without the need for any simple sugars or issues with body.
http://byo.com/all-grain-brewing/item/1497-the-science-of-step-mashing
"In a fully-modified malt, the level of beta-glucans should not be a problem, but if you experience lautering problems or haze with your favorite malt, try a 15-minute rest in the acid rest temperature range."
"If you want beta-amylase as your primary starch converter, then your mash will need a long rest in its optimal range. A 1–2 hour rest in the 140–145 °F range is, in fact, one way for brewers produce a highly-fermentable wort for drier beers."
"A rest in the high end of the alpha range will result in a less fermentable wort, resulting in a sweeter, more full-bodied beer. In particular, a short (20 minute) rest at 158–162 °F, in a relatively thick mash (around 1.0 qt./lb.) will produce a very thick, full-bodied beer."
http://byo.com/all-grain-brewing/item/1497-the-science-of-step-mashing
"In a fully-modified malt, the level of beta-glucans should not be a problem, but if you experience lautering problems or haze with your favorite malt, try a 15-minute rest in the acid rest temperature range."
"If you want beta-amylase as your primary starch converter, then your mash will need a long rest in its optimal range. A 1–2 hour rest in the 140–145 °F range is, in fact, one way for brewers produce a highly-fermentable wort for drier beers."
"A rest in the high end of the alpha range will result in a less fermentable wort, resulting in a sweeter, more full-bodied beer. In particular, a short (20 minute) rest at 158–162 °F, in a relatively thick mash (around 1.0 qt./lb.) will produce a very thick, full-bodied beer."
paulster2626
Well-Known Member
I will check the FG tonight - what do I do, just fill the hydro sample cylinder and leave it in the fridge overnight to let it go flat?
Also I did a SMASH with Pearl/Cascade once. 10# of pearl for 60 minutes in my xtreme cooler with a batch sparge got me a 1.050 gravity. 72% efficiency, which is exactly what I expected. I use pearl a lot, and haven't noticed any discernible difference from a longer mash time - not that I've really payed attention though.
Also I did a SMASH with Pearl/Cascade once. 10# of pearl for 60 minutes in my xtreme cooler with a batch sparge got me a 1.050 gravity. 72% efficiency, which is exactly what I expected. I use pearl a lot, and haven't noticed any discernible difference from a longer mash time - not that I've really payed attention though.
Pretty much. You can cap the tube and shake too, to get a lot of the gas out, but you'll have to let it sit for awhile. Interested in hearing the results, thanks.
Wouldn't leaving liquid uncovered, especially in a dry atmosphere, result in some evaporation? This would skew the results, and give you a slightly denser solution, since only the H20 would be evaporating. It's no wonder why some of you are getting a higher FG than reported if you followed these processes to degas.
That's a really good point. I haven't ever checked the FG of a commercial beer, but I've done it with a couple home brews that I was questioning. I poured the sample warm, shook several times to get the gas going, and then left them on the counter with the cap loosely on, not pushed down. Probably still get some evap that way. But yeah, beer's gonna thicken up if left uncovered overnight.
What about just cracking the seal but not opening a warm can, letting it sit overnight or longer, then checking? Big sacrifice, I know, but no evap.
scottland
Well-Known Member
Remember, our FG samples we take from our fermenters have a decent amount of CO2 in them -- usually around .8-1vol. So having some co2 in solution is ok.
Personally, I just pour the beer back and forth between two glasses a number of times. After a few minutes the head falls, and I'm left with relatively flat beer. No need to let it sit out overnight.
Personally, I just pour the beer back and forth between two glasses a number of times. After a few minutes the head falls, and I'm left with relatively flat beer. No need to let it sit out overnight.
FWIW, I shake the $hit outta those too. I've had it throw my readings off, did it with my Heady clone big time. Like 3 points lower after shaking and letting rest. YMMV
Petekiteworld
Well-Known Member
Just cap after shaking, evap will be negligible
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
I made a 1500ml starter of Conan last night. That bad boy was kickin' ass on the counter on the stirplate this morning. Almost out the top of the flask.
I figure I'll cold crash it tonight, as it's more than likely done, and will step it up again for my Double Citra DIPA. Which, I used all Pearl for, so should give me some notes and such.
I figure I'll cold crash it tonight, as it's more than likely done, and will step it up again for my Double Citra DIPA. Which, I used all Pearl for, so should give me some notes and such.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I've never noticed any issues with Pearl. Not sure what issue there is when we can get 1.070-1.006 with this malt setup. I contacted Thomas Fawcett a while back to get their Kolbach index number for pearl and was told it is 40%-44%. Kolbach index between 36% and 42% is considered a malt that is highly modified and suitable for single infusion mashing. Back in 2010 I believe, the Pearl malt changed due to weather conditions in England and John had to address the increased haze. He did some tests and found that a beta-glucanase breaking enzyme + pearl was the best option. He doesn't say if he went with that on commercial batches or if he continues to use the enzyme now that Pearl malt has returned to normal levels.
If John was doing a rest, not sure why he would have talked about being concerned with the beta-glucanase levels. He says he adds an enzyme to break up the beta-glucanse enzymes. If he was already doing a rest, why would he add the enzyme? Beta-glucanase is broken down between 98-140, optimally 113. Now it's possible that John decided not to add the enzyme to future batches and adopted a step mash, or he could have gone back to normal with no enzyme and no beta-glucanase rest.
Also, on the Lintner thing, a malt with enough power to self-convert has a diastatic power near 35 °Lintner, at 58, Pearl is well above that level, even though it is much lower than 2-row. British Pale Malts are typically 40-70 °L, so Pearl is above average there.
If John was doing a rest, not sure why he would have talked about being concerned with the beta-glucanase levels. He says he adds an enzyme to break up the beta-glucanse enzymes. If he was already doing a rest, why would he add the enzyme? Beta-glucanase is broken down between 98-140, optimally 113. Now it's possible that John decided not to add the enzyme to future batches and adopted a step mash, or he could have gone back to normal with no enzyme and no beta-glucanase rest.
Also, on the Lintner thing, a malt with enough power to self-convert has a diastatic power near 35 °Lintner, at 58, Pearl is well above that level, even though it is much lower than 2-row. British Pale Malts are typically 40-70 °L, so Pearl is above average there.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Dup
Johnnyhitch1
Well-Known Member
Was just thinking, what if the way we think heady is can-conditioned is by finishing a point high crashing, DH and package.
When i was at the cannery i noticed that the empty cans went from the palate to a large bottlenose on the canner to a single line where they slide down the run sideways then back upright where there filled, pushed down the line where a top falls on and then stamped to seal. Just added a new "binder" to the end of the line where it "binds" the 4 pack with that plastic topper (last time they had 2 guys at the end collecting 4 cans and popping the topper on them self)...
My point...
Where is the sanitation, purging the can of o2, the 8-12 seconds the can is just sitting on top of the shell...Seems this might be the reason HT does not package well??
To the first point i made about can conditioning, what if like i said he finishs a point or 2 high, carbs a tad lower and lets the yeast ferment out another point eating the little amount of o2 thats in the can?
I took a gravity reading yesterday (day of canning) and it was at 1.014. (this batch seems slightly sweeter than previous) I have a can from the last time i went up canned on 12/31 might open that one up tnite and take a gravity reading. I will also save a can from this batch and test next week to disclude variations against batchs
If i come back with a 1.010-1.011 what could this mean? Does conan do that beast of a job and continue to eat in the can?
Kimmich knows about the degradation of HT stating right on the can DRINK FRESH!! were always making more.
Dont think it bothers him for the pure sake of having people wait outside the brewery in subdegree temps....
When i was at the cannery i noticed that the empty cans went from the palate to a large bottlenose on the canner to a single line where they slide down the run sideways then back upright where there filled, pushed down the line where a top falls on and then stamped to seal. Just added a new "binder" to the end of the line where it "binds" the 4 pack with that plastic topper (last time they had 2 guys at the end collecting 4 cans and popping the topper on them self)...
My point...
Where is the sanitation, purging the can of o2, the 8-12 seconds the can is just sitting on top of the shell...Seems this might be the reason HT does not package well??
To the first point i made about can conditioning, what if like i said he finishs a point or 2 high, carbs a tad lower and lets the yeast ferment out another point eating the little amount of o2 thats in the can?
I took a gravity reading yesterday (day of canning) and it was at 1.014. (this batch seems slightly sweeter than previous) I have a can from the last time i went up canned on 12/31 might open that one up tnite and take a gravity reading. I will also save a can from this batch and test next week to disclude variations against batchs
If i come back with a 1.010-1.011 what could this mean? Does conan do that beast of a job and continue to eat in the can?
Kimmich knows about the degradation of HT stating right on the can DRINK FRESH!! were always making more.
Dont think it bothers him for the pure sake of having people wait outside the brewery in subdegree temps....
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Drink fresh seems to be a pretty universal statement from all these breweries making highly hopped ipas these days. I don't find Heady loses hop aroma any faster than other beers of similar style.
Interested to see you FG results. I have tested aged Heady and 4-day-old fresh Heady, both were 1.014. Plus we know that's his target FG. The last FG test publicly posted was a 1.010 over a year ago on beeradvocate forums. If that reading was true, which I think it was, the recipe has changed. Wonder when it happened and the reason. The beer has changed over the last year. It is clearer now too. Could be the increased capacity changed some things, or ingredients changed.
Interested to see you FG results. I have tested aged Heady and 4-day-old fresh Heady, both were 1.014. Plus we know that's his target FG. The last FG test publicly posted was a 1.010 over a year ago on beeradvocate forums. If that reading was true, which I think it was, the recipe has changed. Wonder when it happened and the reason. The beer has changed over the last year. It is clearer now too. Could be the increased capacity changed some things, or ingredients changed.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
Also, it came down to just the point of haze in the end, which he said piss on. He'd rather have a hazy tasteful full beer, than something that has been stripped down from it's former self for the sake of clear beer.
Also, I saw it recently, but they said the additional tanks they have now, give them more room, and allow them a longer time to cold condition the beer in the bright tanks before needing the space, and canning it. Said that it would allow more yeast to drop, and allow him to have a clearer beer.
Johnnyhitch1
Well-Known Member
I do agree that the recipe has been changed. Making this "cloning" very hard if he continues to implement small changes to each batch.
HES DOING IT TO THROW US OFF!! HE KNOWS ABOUT US!!!
Will report back with my findings
I'm wondering if the recipe isn't tweaked regularly to account for hops availability, crop, grain crop, etc. It'd make sense for a brewery this size (small) to be adjusting recipe often enough.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
That's all we need. We're at a combined 120 pages or so and have yet to get 1 down. :cross:
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
Ehhh. I bet as much as they produce, they can atleast get some contracts in for grain and hops. He isn't using anything so far off the reservation that it's in rare form. He's using hops that, other than Simcoe, pretty much are hops that can be bought easy enough, especially in bulk, and early, and being a professional brew house.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
They're at 6k barrels a year now, and plan for 9k barrels after upcoming increase (3rd) of production. That sounds like a lot. 279,000 gallons a year! Isn't that something like 725,000 pounds of Pearl malt, over 20,000 pounds of Simcoe? Holy crap, that's amazing.
Yeah, of course they have contracts, but crop years vary. In order to produce the same or similar beer regularly, they may need to tweak the recipe. Not to mention, what we've heard about the yeast changing from gen to gen, he may have to vary things like temp, time, pitch rate, maybe even hops to get a similar beer each and every time out. It's all speculation on my part, of course, but not really unheard of.
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