Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[Bottoms_Up]

Personally I'd take First Gold over Mandarina.

But I'd point out that you don't get orange just from hops, it's a classic characteristic of the Fuller's yeast - the actual one, as opposed to the homebrew strains that supposedly came from it (and in fact the lack of orange is the best indication that they're not the real Fuller's yeast). So if you can't get ready access to 1845 or Lancer/IPA for harvesting the real thing, Imperial A09 Pub is meant to be close, might be worth mixing some in with a Conan?

Great idea! I might try that as well as the mandarina hop.

 

[the_owl]

Personally Ive tried to replicate HT 3 times, with three different approaches, and didnt get close. Lifes too short to keep brewing the same recipe. Only get so many orbits

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Personally Ive tried to replicate HT 3 times, with three different approaches, and didnt get close. Lifes too short to keep brewing the same recipe. Only get so many orbits

I've tried to duplicate many beers, not just one, and the process itself taught me much more than I could ever learn otherwise. For me, it's not all about the actual duplication of the beer, but learning more about the very subtleties that affect the taste, look, feel, and aroma of a beer. In that way, I can build upon that to brew my own version of what appeals most to me, or of what may not be readily available in my location. That is why, in this particular beer, I'm so interested in that pearl of a concentrated orange taste in the middle of all that grapefruit. To me, it's that subtlety that I'm after to try to build in my own customized version.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

My other thought would be that different Conans from different sources can behave quite differently, Scott Janish reports that the Gigayeast one can be quite orangey but equally its fruitiness is not very consistent :

http://scottjanish.com/gy054-vermont-ipa-vs-london-ale-iii-1318/

+1 though on the idea that the interest in cloning is not the clone in itself, but the technical challenge of trying to hit a specific target with your beers.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

My other thought would be that different Conans from different sources can behave quite differently, Scott Janish reports that the Gigayeast one can be quite orangey but equally its fruitiness is not very consistent :

Interesting article. They do mention that that the orange description related to the aroma rather than the taste, but if it has the aroma, then it must also be in the taste. The article also mentions the unpredicatablity in the Vermont strain, which others have noted. For my current attempt, I'm actually using a "Vermont Ale" strain from Escarpment Labs, which is located here in Ontario. It is supposed to be the Conan strain. I was surprised at how rapidly it ferments. Within just less than 2 days after pitching the yeast, the SG was already at 1.021!

 

[K_tile]

Isnt HT a blended beer? Hard to replicate with one batch.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Isnt HT a blended beer? Hard to replicate with one batch.

I believe it is. I read somewhere that they blend several different batches. I'll see if I can find the reference.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I believe it is. I read somewhere that they blend several different batches. I'll see if I can find the reference.

It's in message 911 of this thread.

Hopefully, this link will work:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/heady-topper-can-you-clone-it.390082/page-23#post-5208451

By the way, it's impossible to clone a commercial beer using homebrewer equipment and smaller batch sizes, and different ingredients. Even commercial breweries can't "clone" their own beer, as we all know. I hate the term "clone", and appreciate your use of "replicate". We should all stick to the term "replicated beer" or something similar, and forever do away with the term "clone beer". It's entirely misleading.

 

[Gozie Boy]

It's in message 911 of this thread.

Hopefully, this link will work:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/heady-topper-can-you-clone-it.390082/page-23#post-5208451

By the way, it's impossible to clone a commercial beer using homebrewer equipment and smaller batch sizes, and different ingredients. Even commercial breweries can't "clone" their own beer, as we all know. I hate the term "clone", and appreciate your use of "replicate". We should all stick to the term "replicated beer" or something similar, and forever do away with the term "clone beer". It's entirely misleading.

Hmmm... Guess I'll have to change my nickname from the Clone Ranger to The Replicator!

 

[day_trippr]

"Distinction without a difference"?

Cheers!

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Duplicate (odd - message disappeared but came back later).

 

[Bottoms_Up]

"Distinction without a difference"?

Cheers!

Not quite, since there is a difference. The term "replicate" is not correct either, as I discovered when I looked up the exact meaning. "Copy" is close since some definitions say: "a thing made to be similar or identical to another".

Perhaps "similitude" would be a better term

 

[day_trippr]

That made my brain hurt

I suspect the prevailing paradigm will persist...

Cheers!

 

[sweetcell]

It's in message 911 of this thread.

Hopefully, this link will work:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/heady-topper-can-you-clone-it.390082/page-23#post-5208451

i don't get the impression they're "blending" HT in the same way Cantillon blends a gueuze. i suspect they are brewing, say, four 30 barrel batches, blending them all in a 120 barrel mixing tank, then canning that. HT is blended, but it's not blended... when you mix identical batches at 100%, i would use the term "mixed" or "homogenized".

so i don't think it's the "blending" that puts HT out of reach of homebrewers...

 

[Bottoms_Up]

i don't get the impression they're "blending" HT in the same way Cantillon blends a gueuze. i suspect they are brewing, say, four 30 barrel batches, blending them all in a 120 barrel mixing tank, then canning that. HT is blended, but it's not blended... when you mix identical batches at 100%, i would use the term "mixed" or "homogenized".

so i don't think it's the "blending" that puts HT out of reach of homebrewers...

I agree, it's not the same as say, with Rodenbach, where they might blend batches from different years, each of which adds a certain chosen characteristic to the final "vintage" result.

Perhaps what HT is doing is fermenting different generations of the yeast in different tanks. In other words, the first generation of the yeast is apparently known to be not as consistent as the second, third, and up to tenth generation (apparently they throw the yeast out after ten generations). Thus, they might, for example, mix a tank with the first generation yeast along with other tanks of later generations in order to blend the first generation batch for overall consistency.

 

[Trillium]

Here is the recipe I have been using. I think I nailed it!

Fermentables:

15 lbs Pearl base malt (86%)
0.6 lb Cara malt (Crystal 10) (4%)
1.75 lb Corn sugar (10%)

Water profile
CA: 50 ppm
So4: 300
RA: -40

Mash 60 min ~146 degrees

Boil:

Warrior 1.5 oz 60 min
Simcoe 1 oz 30 min
Columbus 2 oz 15 min
Simcoe 2 oz 10 min
Amarillo 1 oz 5 min

Whirlpool:

Simcoe 2 oz
Amarillo 1 oz

Dry Hop:

Simcoe 3 oz

Here is the recipe. It is very very close to Heady Topper. Make sure you use Thomas Fawcett malts and Conan yeast.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Here is the recipe. It is very very close to Heady Topper. Make sure you use Thomas Fawcett malts and Conan yeast.

Thanks, I remember seeing it. I like the grain bill, but you only went with 4 different hops rather than 6? And you included hops in the boil (in addition to the main bittering hop)? Why the changes, and how does it compare with the results from Bobbrews's recipe?

Also,

1. do you happen to have the target water profile you used?
2. what was your fermentation/dry-hopping schedule?

Thanks.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

After having read all of the messages in this thread, there seems to be a general consensus that:

1. It takes 28 days for HT to go from grain to can;
2. HT is cold-conditioned for 14 days;
3. Canning takes place on the last day of cold-conditioning and takes about a day;
4. Dry-hopping is likely done in one stage and takes 3-4 days.

Working backwards, if cold-conditioning is 14 days and dry-hopping is, say 4 days, that leaves 10 days for fermentation.

I'm currently brewing a HT version. This is what I plan to do:

1. Ferment in a 26 liter carboy at about 63F for about 5 days when most of the fermentation has completed;
2. Raise the temperature to about 68-70 F, and let it sit another 5 days for the yeast to clean up;
3. Ten days after brewing, rack the beer to a smaller 23 liter wide-mouthed carboy (after dumping some CO2 in the carboy);
4. Add all the dry hops to a nylon bag and let it float in the carboy;
5. Let it dry-hop for about 4 days;
6. After the 4 days, remove the hop bag and cold crash to about 50 F.
7. Once the beer is clear, after 3 or 4 days, siphon to a keg, and let it cold condition for the rest of the 14 day period.

The reason I'm not dry hopping in the fermenter is that I want to reduce the amount of trub, and would therefore rather add the hops in a nylon bag. The small neck of the glass carboy doesn't allow me to push the bag through, thus the use of the wide-mouthed fermenter.

Does anyone see any problem using this approach?

 

[flintoid]

Bagging dry hops reduces their effectiveness, but I understand why you'd do it. I used to bag dry hops before I started dry hopping in kegs.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Bagging dry hops reduces their effectiveness, but I understand why you'd do it. I used to bag dry hops before I started dry hopping in kegs.

I've tried dry-hopping in a keg, but the disadvantages include:

1. it leaves a lot of trub in the bottom which can get stuck in the dip tube;
2. it requires transferring from that keg to an empty one, meaning more work in cleaning and sterilizing the extra keg, and hose;
3. the trub means a loss in the final amount of beer.

In order to increase the effectiveness of using a bag in the carboy, I'm using a very large bag (14.5" x 8").

 

[flintoid]

Again, I agree with your assessment to the cons of dry hop kegging.

In regards to point 1- you're right. It's part of the game. Trub loss.

In regards to 2, I've added a long 300 micron filter around my dip tube and it has halted dip tube clogging. Nothing is worse than clogged dip tubes. We all have been there and it's devastating to say the least.

But when brewing these styles of IPA, the keg allows you to keep oxygen out, almost completely. It is worth the smaller trub loss. I fill my dry hop keg until it's spurting out of the pressure release valve. So the amount of beer that I get into the serving keg is almost optimal- definitely over 5 gallons.

I do like your method of a large bag. But with larger _____ that you're sticking into your fermented beer, the larger the surface area to drag in oxygen which kills these styles.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Again, I agree with your assessment to the cons of dry hop kegging.

In regards to point 1- you're right. It's part of the game. Trub loss.

In regards to 2, I've added a long 300 micron filter around my dip tube and it has halted dip tube clogging. Nothing is worse than clogged dip tubes. We all have been there and it's devastating to say the least.

But when brewing these styles of IPA, the keg allows you to keep oxygen out, almost completely. It is worth the smaller trub loss. I fill my dry hop keg until it's spurting out of the pressure release valve. So the amount of beer that I get into the serving keg is almost optimal- definitely over 5 gallons.

I do like your method of a large bag. But with larger _____ that you're sticking into your fermented beer, the larger the surface area to drag in oxygen which kills these styles.

I agree that dry hopping in a keg is the ideal way to go, and I like your idea of adding a filter to the end of the dip tube (that should solve one worry). I also like that you fill the keg right up to the top to account for the missing amount of beer later.

Using the less preferred option, a secondary, I do try to limit oxygen exposure as much as possible. Before transferring from the primary fermenter to the secondary fermenter, I flush out the secondary with CO2. After transferring, and adding the hop bag, I flush out the space above the beer once again with CO2.

Where did you find the dip tube filter?

 

[flintoid]

I agree that dry hopping in a keg is the ideal way to go, and I like your idea of adding a filter to the end of the dip tube (that should solve one worry). I also like that you fill the keg right up to the top to account for the missing amount of beer later.

Using the less preferred option, a secondary, I do try to limit oxygen exposure as much as possible. Before transferring from the primary fermenter to the secondary fermenter, I flush out the secondary with CO2. After transferring, and adding the hop bag, I flush out the space above the beer once again with CO2.

Where did you find the dip tube filter?

I shortened the dip tube by 0.5" (it doesn't take much- be sure to remove less as you can always remove more later, you want it to sit as low in the keg as possible when it's in the filter)

and I drilled a hole in the lid of this, just barely larger than the diameter of the dip tube:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QRYVCQS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and when you re-install the dip tube, you push it through the top of this filter. I removed the "chain" to the lid, and it works amazingly. The only thing left in my keg when I force transfer is wet hops.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QRYVCQS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thank you!

Wow! I just checked the price - only $15.99 in the US, and $103.57 in Canada!!!! What a mark-up!

The only thing left in my keg when I force transfer is wet hops.

Is that with pellet hops or leaf hops?

 

[HopsAreGood]

I agree that dry hopping in a keg is the ideal way to go, and I like your idea of adding a filter to the end of the dip tube (that should solve one worry). I also like that you fill the keg right up to the top to account for the missing amount of beer later.

Using the less preferred option, a secondary, I do try to limit oxygen exposure as much as possible. Before transferring from the primary fermenter to the secondary fermenter, I flush out the secondary with CO2. After transferring, and adding the hop bag, I flush out the space above the beer once again with CO2.

Where did you find the dip tube filter?

This is from another thread but it works well for me.

[URL]https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/posts/8766913/
[/URL]

 

[hopfenstopfen]

Thank you!

Wow! I just checked the price - only $15.99 in the US, and $103.57 in Canada!!!! What a mark-up!


Is that with pellet hops or leaf hops?

I have 1 of these on the dip tube of a keg and it works perfectly. All of my recent NEIPAs get a dry hop in the keg with this.
Hopefully shipping isn't prohibitive for you.

https://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/brewingfilters.php#discountedbrewfilters
http://scottjanish.com/my-favorite-way-to-dry-hop-loose-in-primary-and-kegs/

 

[Bottoms_Up]

This is from another thread but it works well for me.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/posts/8766913/

Thanks for this. I was not even aware of the existence of a floating diptube. Do you know of a good source for one?

 

[doug293cz]

I have 1 of these on the dip tube of a keg and it works perfectly. All of my recent NEIPAs get a dry hop in the keg with this.
Hopefully shipping isn't prohibitive for you.

https://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/brewingfilters.php#discountedbrewfilters
http://scottjanish.com/my-favorite-way-to-dry-hop-loose-in-primary-and-kegs/

Both of your links point to the Scott Janish site.

Brew on

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I have 1 of these on the dip tube of a keg and it works perfectly. All of my recent NEIPAs get a dry hop in the keg with this.
Hopefully shipping isn't prohibitive for you.

https://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/brewingfilters.php#discountedbrewfilters
http://scottjanish.com/my-favorite-way-to-dry-hop-loose-in-primary-and-kegs/

Great link, thank you!

 

[HopsAreGood]

Thanks for this. I was not even aware of the existence of a floating diptube. Do you know of a good source for one?

Here you go:

http://www.clearbeerdraughtsystem.com/

There are other cheaper versions out there if you look.