Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[Trillium]

I actually can't remember. A while back there was a big discussion about this and one poster used different percentages until the color was just right. Kimmich himself said he uses his "favorite British Malts" so it makes sense he would just use Thomas Fawcett.

 

[robopp]

I actually can't remember. A while back there was a big discussion about this and one poster used different percentages until the color was just right. Kimmich himself said he uses his "favorite British Malts" so it makes sense he would just use Thomas Fawcett.

Thomas Fawcett makes the 10L Caramalt.

 

[GRBC]

Your hop schedule looks pretty good, but your malts are not even close.
Things we know
1) they use Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
2) they use Thomas Fawcett Cara Malt
3) they use dextrose
4) they brew with 750 hardness water.
5) they dry hop with about 1oz per gallon (probably 100% Simcoe)

But does it taste the same? Have you tried it? As we have seen, a home brewer doesn't have to use the exact same recipe/process/water/etc. to clone a commercial beer.

 

[Trillium]

But does it taste the same? Have you tried it? As we have seen, a home brewer doesn't have to use the exact same recipe/process/water/etc. to clone a commercial beer.

Sure you do, or it wouldn't be a clone.

 

[brewski09]

Every brew house will be a little different so you always have to adjust for your equipment and efficiencies.

 

[kaz4121]

Your hop schedule looks pretty good, but your malts are not even close.
Things we know
1) they use Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
2) they use Thomas Fawcett Cara Malt
3) they use dextrose
4) they brew with 750 hardness water.
5) they dry hop with about 1oz per gallon (probably 100% Simcoe)

According to BYO #5 is false: "John Kimmich dry hops with under 4 oz. (113 g) per 5 gallons (19 L)."

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

 

[TheHairyHop]

sub

 

[davidst]

I made the recipe on the first page, it's a pretty good beer, but it's not as bitter as I'd prefer. I did warrior instead of the hopshot and I'm now wishing I would have done a hop with a sharper bitterness such as Columbus.

 

[droder1]

According to BYO #5 is false: "John Kimmich dry hops with under 4 oz. (113 g) per 5 gallons (19 L)."

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

Well, BYO 20th anniversary issue (Sept 2015) also states in their Alchemist Moose Knuckle Clone that "the Alchemist's beers are brewed with very soft water. If you get a water report and find that your water has a solid mineral base you might consider diluting your mash or boil water with distilled water."

Well, as we can see from the actual, pictured brewsheet here for HT, that is clearly nonsense. While Kimmich could without lying say his water is soft (which it appears to be from the brewsheet), they do NOT brew with very soft water, at least not for HT. I imagine a 60 IBU pale ale he doesn't just go for 0 hardness.

So morale of the store here, BYO is not bible.

 

[ianmatth]

That's why you should buy the ingredients yourself instead of using a kit (with the exception of Farmhouse's kit since it is theveganbrewer's recipe on page 1) if you want to clone this beer. As long as your water is right, you pitch the right amount of yeast (0.44 is where it's at but going higher won't hurt - AND DON'T ASSUME YOU HAVE ENOUGH YEAST - crash your starter and use 1 ml of compacted yeast for every 4 billion cells you want,) you control temperature properly, and you dry hop big you will get a clone that is quite close to the real Heady Topper, slight variations in malts, hops, or late addition/whirlpool hops schedule will not make a huge difference.

 

[Trillium]

According to BYO #5 is false: "John Kimmich dry hops with under 4 oz. (113 g) per 5 gallons (19 L)."

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

My bad, I forgot about that article. The recipe for The Alchemist Black IPA "El Jefe" in the IPA book, it says "Remove the yeast and dry hop with fresh Simcoe pellets at a ratio of 0.83 oz./ gal. (1.6 lb./bbl., 6.2 g/L)." That comes to 4.15 oz (118 g) for 5 gallons (19 L)

I'm convinced that Heady Topper dry hoping is very close to this, if not the same.

Edit: that comes to 25 lbs of hops for 15 barrels. They most likely just throw in two 11 pound bags of Simcoe, or 22 lbs total. I don't think a commercial brewery would measure out 3 lbs separately from a 11 Lb bag.

So that got me thinking.....I would bet money they throw in one 25 kg bag of cara malt for a 15 barrel batch.

 

[Trillium]

Ok, my brain is really spinning with ideas. Dextrose comes in 50 lbs bags, so they most likely throw in 2 or 3 bags for 15 barrel batch. The balance would be Pearl Malt.

Edit:
100 lbs, calculates to .216lb per gallon, or 1.08 lbs/5 gal.
150 lbs, calculates to .323lb per gallon, or 1.61lbs/5 gal.

Now we just need to calculate the amount of Pearl.

 

[Trillium]

I'm having a bit of difficulty reverse engineering the hop extract because it comes in 0.5 kg, 1kg, 2kg and 3 kg and 4kg tins. Not only mutiple sizes but it also comes in different hop varietie such as Cascade (aroma), Chinook (dual) and Columbus (bittering). And this is what's available from just Yakima Chief. I'm sure there are also other suppliers and other varieties available.

Another issue is the hop utilization on a 15 barrel system is much higher than a 5 gallon system. You would need to use more extract to get the same bitterness.

 

[kaz4121]

Well, BYO 20th anniversary issue (Sept 2015) also states in their Alchemist Moose Knuckle Clone that "the Alchemist's beers are brewed with very soft water. If you get a water report and find that your water has a solid mineral base you might consider diluting your mash or boil water with distilled water."

Well, as we can see from the actual, pictured brewsheet here for HT, that is clearly nonsense. While Kimmich could without lying say his water is soft (which it appears to be from the brewsheet), they do NOT brew with very soft water, at least not for HT. I imagine a 60 IBU pale ale he doesn't just go for 0 hardness.

So morale of the store here, BYO is not bible.

Agreed that BYO is not gospel but just trying to keep everyone honest before making declarative statements.

 

[Trillium]

I came up with the following assuming one (1) 25 kg bag cara malt and two(2) 50 lb bags of dextrose for 15 barrel batch. I then used a calculator to get to 1.076 gravity to determine Pearl amount with 75% efficiency.

For 5 gallons
12 Lbs of Thomas Fawcett Pearl
.6 Lbs of Thomas Fawcett Cara Malt
1lb of dextrose

If they use 150 Lbs of dextrose:
10.5 Lbs Pearl
.6 lbs Cara malt
1.6 Lbs Dextrose

 

[TheHairyHop]

Agreed that BYO is not gospel but just trying to keep everyone honest before making declarative statements.

yea, the part about less than an oz per gallon is questionable to me. especially considering that there was no reference

 

[chato]

I came up with the following assuming one (1) 25 kg bag cara malt and two(2) 50 lb bags of dextrose for 15 barrel batch. I then used a calculator to get to 1.076 gravity to determine Pearl amount with 75% efficiency.

For 5 gallons
12 Lbs of Thomas Fawcett Pearl
.6 Lbs of Thomas Fawcett Cara Malt
1lb of dextrose

If they use 150 Lbs of dextrose:
10.5 Lbs Pearl
.6 lbs Cara malt
1.6 Lbs Dextrose

Your numbers look pretty good. I calculated percentages from an Alchemist brew sheet.

For a 6 gallon batch at OG 1.076 with 74% efficiency, I got these:

14 lbs Pearl (86%)
.65 lbs Caramalt (4%)
1.6 lbs Dextrose (10%)

They actually use 158 lbs Dextrose

 

[tjmac5071]

After over a one year delay I am finally brewing up a recipe along these lines - not trying for a clone, but anything in the vicinity would be a great addition to my kegerator which has never seen anything north of 6%.

I am stuck a bit on water profile - here is what I currently have planned, but I am not sure if this is right, the sulfate is much higher than anything I have previously gone with.

CA -172
MG - 1.4
NA - 16
SO4 - 331
CL - 82

This look okay - if not what is a better target?

 

[GRBC]

Sure you do, or it wouldn't be a clone.

I can understand why you feel that way, but I'm not in a position to buy a 15bbl brewhouse and clone it. Brewing a beer which cannot be distinguished from the real thing in a blind triangle test (which I have not done yet w/HT) is my definition of cloned. Even if mine was a 5 gallon batch using different ingredients, mashed in a cooler, boiled on a turkey fryer, fermented in a bucket, and packaged in a bottle. But that's just me. You do you & I'm OK with that. [emoji482]

 

[droder1]

Your numbers look pretty good. I calculated percentages from an Alchemist brew sheet.



For a 6 gallon batch at OG 1.076 with 74% efficiency, I got these:



14 lbs Pearl (86%)

.65 lbs Caramalt (4%)

1.6 lbs Dextrose (10%)



They actually use 158 lbs Dextrose

Oh you've got to give us more than that what else did you see on the sheet?? Hops...?

 

[droder1]

Your numbers look pretty good. I calculated percentages from an Alchemist brew sheet.



For a 6 gallon batch at OG 1.076 with 74% efficiency, I got these:



14 lbs Pearl (86%)

.65 lbs Caramalt (4%)

1.6 lbs Dextrose (10%)



They actually use 158 lbs Dextrose

Also really no wheat?

 

[Trillium]

Also really no wheat?

Why add wheat to an IIPA?

 

[droder1]

Why add wheat to an IIPA?

Well the many early iterations of the clone attempt had white wheat. Even to the point where we were sleuthing malt bags in videos from the cannery and determined it was Canada malting white wheat

And your namesake handle trillium has wheat in scaled way up which is 8% abv (they have Wheat in most if not all of their IPAs it appears)

 

[TrickyDick]

For folks saying their clone attempt isn't bitter enough should consider another variable...boil intensity. It does make a difference and it's a Big difference.

 

[davidst]

For folks saying their clone attempt isn't bitter enough should consider another variable...boil intensity. It does make a difference and it's a Big difference.

How much boil intensity? I just normally do the standard rolling boil.

 

[khillian]

Some interesting data points in this article, unsure if it's been posted somewhere in this train wreck. I think many fail brewing this beer not due to recipe but process/quality hops.

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

Let's talk about this one first since it is the first variable every brewer should worry about. John Kimmich has focused a lot of time and energy towards making sure that the dissolved oxygen (DO) of his beers is minimized. While it may not be the only reason his beer Heady Topper is ranked the #1 beer in the world by users on BeerAdvocate.com, it certainly helps. He recounted a story when a quality assurance person from his canning company came to test his beers one day. The tester needed to run back to his car since he thought his dissolved oxygen (DO) meter was broken. He had measured 1 part per billion (ppb) DO in The Alchemist's brite tank (a vessel that is somewhat akin to a homebrewer's bottling bucket). He had never seen numbers that low. While John's process may seem like a bit of sorcery, one thing that I do know is that John is adamantly opposed to filtering his beers. The yeast left in solution can act as a buffer against any oxygen uptake. This is one reason you may not want to filter your beers when brewing a hop-forward beer.

Only two of the seven pro brewers I spoke to didn't add their dry hops in stages. One that was surprising was John Kimmich who adds all his dry hops in one big charge for his Imperial IPA

Finding the right balance of hop oils of a varietal or a blend is key. If you've had Heady Topper before, you may be surprised to learn that John Kimmich dry hops with under 4 oz. (113 g) per 5 gallons (19 L)

 

[tooldudetool]

For folks saying their clone attempt isn't bitter enough should consider another variable...boil intensity. It does make a difference and it's a Big difference.

Not sure why you believe boil intensity has anything to do with bitterness contribution. Whether you are at a gentle boil, or an intense rolling boil the wort temp is 212 degrees (depending on your elevation). All a more vigorous boil does is quicken the change of state from a liquid to a gas. This will affect the aromatic hop oils being boiled off more quickly, as well as boiling off precursors of DMS from the grains, but it shouldn't affect IBU contribution, which is a function of boil time and temperature.

 

[kaz4121]

Not sure why you believe boil intensity has anything to do with bitterness contribution. Whether you are at a gentle boil, or an intense rolling boil the wort temp is 212 degrees (depending on your elevation). All a more vigorous boil does is quicken the change of state from a liquid to a gas. This will affect the aromatic hop oils being boiled off more quickly, as well as boiling off precursors of DMS from the grains, but it shouldn't affect IBU contribution, which is a function of boil time and temperature.

Boil intensity affects evaporation rate and therefore volume...which impacts IBU. So theoretically, I can see what TrickyDick is saying, but never paid enough attention to see if it makes a difference..

 

[olotti]

Some interesting data points in this article, unsure if it's been posted somewhere in this train wreck. I think many fail brewing this beer not due to recipe but process/quality hops.

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

Let's talk about this one first since it is the first variable every brewer should worry about. John Kimmich has focused a lot of time and energy towards making sure that the dissolved oxygen (DO) of his beers is minimized. While it may not be the only reason his beer Heady Topper is ranked the #1 beer in the world by users on BeerAdvocate.com, it certainly helps. He recounted a story when a quality assurance person from his canning company came to test his beers one day. The tester needed to run back to his car since he thought his dissolved oxygen (DO) meter was broken. He had measured 1 part per billion (ppb) DO in The Alchemist's brite tank (a vessel that is somewhat akin to a homebrewer's bottling bucket). He had never seen numbers that low. While John's process may seem like a bit of sorcery, one thing that I do know is that John is adamantly opposed to filtering his beers. The yeast left in solution can act as a buffer against any oxygen uptake. This is one reason you may not want to filter your beers when brewing a hop-forward beer.

Only two of the seven pro brewers I spoke to didn't add their dry hops in stages. One that was surprising was John Kimmich who adds all his dry hops in one big charge for his Imperial IPA

Finding the right balance of hop oils of a varietal or a blend is key. If you've had Heady Topper before, you may be surprised to learn that John Kimmich dry hops with under 4 oz. (113 g) per 5 gallons (19 L)

4 oz dry hop really wow that's pretty shocking. I've had heady and while its aromatic it's not jumping out of the can aromatic but I think a lot of that flavor and dankness is from the late additions and whirlpool additions.

 

[cantrell00]

Brewing the recipe on the first page tomorrow & have two questions...

1) Any experience with the Omega yeast strain? Good, bad, indifferent? That is what I will be using tomorrow.
2) What temp has everyone used for fermentation? I plan to hold it at 62 degrees for the first 72-96 hours.

Thx