Ice beers are pretty common. Even the big guys do it. I mention it, because I accidentally iced my IPA the other day and I thought that it tasted better than before
Heady Topper- Can you clone it?
- Thread starter theveganbrewer
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At Woodbridge we had a 750 Ft well that was blown out for 3 days to get rid of sand. It was very hard. They still use this today without extra processing. PH is a concern. 
Thanks! I read that whole other thread but it seemed to fizzle out without any confirmation - just speculation. I now see from your post (which was earlier in this thread) the screenshot. Crazy that they use that much calcium sulfate
I brewed an HT clone using the water profile as directed by the brew sheet you referenced, then compared lab results with those for the real thing. Data below, my clone values are listed 2nd:
pH - 4.3, 4.35
TDS - 1584, 1444
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm - 2.64, 2.20
Cations/Anions, me/L - 36.6/20.6**, 31.5/19.3
ppm
Sodium, Na - 25, 35
Potassium, K - 802, 740
Calcium, Ca - 110, 87
Magnesium, Mg - 113, 82
Total Hardness, CaCO3 - 746, 553
Nitrate, NO3-N - 17.6, 14
Sulfate, SO4-S - 156, 181
Chloride, Cl - 339, 282
Carbonate, CO3 - <1.0, < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 - <1, < 1
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 - <1, <1
Total Phosphorus, P - 278.10, 374
Total Iron, Fe - 0.37, < 0.1
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
So, the feedback from friends and family for this beer has been great. I used the bobbrews recipe:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6791071&postcount=2967
What's important in HT is the malt. The malt is the backbone of this beer. I don't know how you can even remotely come close to cloning Heady Topper without using Pearl as the base malt, but that's just my opinion. The front end aroma shines but not overbearing. Very smooth non-lingering bitterness at the end the back end. My attempt is certainly Heady-esque. It's certainly a damn good beer if anything else. Probably my best attempt at an IPA to date. Everything's there but some would argue. I say it's not exactly Heady Topper only because I haven't had a fresh can of Heady Topper in over a year, and I don't remember exactly how it tastes anymore. Though, overall, this attempt certainly reminds me of Heady Topper.
You have to get the water right though. You have to! It's a must. On my first two attempts (using Norther Brewer Kit Off the Topper) my water profiles were non-existent and I missed by a mile. It made for a good enough IPA but nothing like Heady Topper.
At least, with the bobbrews recipe, I'm not only in the ballpark, I'm rounding the bases headed home.
Good stuff.
So, what did you do for your water on the one you liked?
I am drinking a recent IPA I brewed. Not a heady clone at all really. However, I have a 4 pack of Heady in the fridge and drank one the other night...... My IPA is Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic. Now, I am not claiming that is what Heady uses..... but, this hop combo/this IPA reminds me more of Heady than any other combo I have used. It is missing some aspects..... Columbus/Centennial/Simcoe maybe..... but, the hopping tastes more similar than any of my actual Heady attempts. Might've to play around with a couple of these.... Galaxy for sure.
![Craft A Brew - Safale BE-256 Yeast - Fermentis - Belgian Ale Dry Yeast - For Belgian & Strong Ales - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [3 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51bcKEwQmWL._SL500_.jpg)
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
The water parameters I used are contained in the link above. I just used his and it worked well. No problems with it. Unless anyone has something better, I'd recommend everyone use it as a reference guide.
I agree, it could use some enhancement. I was thinking about using Citra to enhance the very front end of the taste profile. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there was Citra in the original dry hop combo. Just a small amount. Enough to enhance perception but not to overwhelm that very front end of the taste flavor/palate.
gotbags-10
Well-Known Member
Curious which recipe you went with using this water profile. How'd it turn out for you?
ultravista
Well-Known Member
Are most starting out with RO or distilled water, then adjusting from there?
I used a variation of the recipe on the first page, but the grain bill is still mostly the same through all clones I think. 90% Pearl, 2.5% Caramalt, 2.5% Wheat, 5% plain table sugar. Hops and schedule followed the general concept...one bittering addition at 60min with huge whirlpool additions. I was happy with how it turned out. Very close, but not "cloned".
With the differences in malt/hop crops and commercial vs. homebrewing setups, trying to clone this beer is like hitting a moving target.
Very interesting. Except for total hardness, your numbers are not far off. Differences may be due to source water, ingredient differences, or process.
brewski09
Well-Known Member
I believe there is a threshold that you can freeze beers and not have to have a distilling license. I remember something on an interview a couple years ago and they said they were very careful to not remove over a certain amount of ice from the beer. Not really sure who it was. I think it was probably on the Can You Brew It podcast though.
ultravista
Well-Known Member
My Las Vegas water report is:
Calcium (Ca+2): 75ppm
Magnesium (Mg+2): 24ppm
Sulfates (SO4-2): 228ppm
Sodium (Na+): 88ppm
Chloride (Cl-): 92ppm
Bicarbonate / Alkalinity: 138ppm
Hardness Total: 285 ppm
What do I need, and how much of it, to bring hardness up to 750 mg/l?
Calcium (Ca+2): 75ppm
Magnesium (Mg+2): 24ppm
Sulfates (SO4-2): 228ppm
Sodium (Na+): 88ppm
Chloride (Cl-): 92ppm
Bicarbonate / Alkalinity: 138ppm
Hardness Total: 285 ppm
What do I need, and how much of it, to bring hardness up to 750 mg/l?
I think the biggest difference in total hardness is that I ended up with lower magnesium levels. Mg has a larger influence in the hardness calculation, as it has an atomic weight almost half that of calcium.
I added no Mg salts, and my starting water has only about 5ppm to begin with, so obviously nearly all of the Mg in the final beer is from the malt. So I attribute it to difference in malt crop. I used Munton's Pearl, and I know it is widely believed that the Alchemist uses Fawcett.
I just finished listening to an interview of the late Greg Noonan on basic brewing radio from 2006. He mentioned that without the high hardness to support the bitterness and high dry hopping, the hops will taste soapy. ( I wondered why a few IPA's have that character) Greg said people blame the hops, but it's actually the water. He recommended 700 for IPA's. They added so much calcium sulphate at the brewpub that they had a hard time getting it dissolved.
How did the beer turn out? Have you brewed it with other water profiles? Also what were your exact mash numbers if you dont mind sharing. Did you go all the way to 750 sulfate? Sorry for all the questions. I made a beer with 300 sulfate a while back and it was quite astringent...could have been something else though.
Kegged my batch about 2 weeks ago and did the 2nd dry hop in the keg. I had it at room temp and on carb. Did that for 5 days. Racked to a serving keg via pressure. Tried it a few days ago. Almost zero hop aroma. WTH? Bitterness, dryness and mouthfeel seemed OK. Color was way off. Too dark. I used Maris Otter instead of Pearl because my HBS doesn't carry Pearl.
So should I try adding some hops to the serving keg to try to get some aroma? If so, what hops and how much?
So should I try adding some hops to the serving keg to try to get some aroma? If so, what hops and how much?
I added 22g of gypsum to the mash which will achieve 750ppm hardness in the final beer once all of the Mg from the malt is accounted for (with my tap water, which is of relatively moderate hardness to begin with). Note you should NOT try to go for 750ppm SO4 OR hardness in your brewing liquor, as you will drive the RA and thus mash pH way too low. It would also be very difficult to dissolve that much CaSO4.
The beer came out very well, the sulfate-enhanced bittering character was evident. I have not brewed this exact beer with other water profiles, but othr hoppy beers with this type of approach (mostly base malt, big whirlpool additions) with other water profiles, and I honestly like a more balanced and overall lower levels of Cl-/SO4, but that just be my personal preference. YMMV.
granted, I haven't done any water adjustments with my brews, but I can't imagine it's the difference factor between clone attempts and the real deal.
Trust me pH and hardness make a HUGE difference when it comes to IPAs. I use 20g of Gypsum and ~2% acidulated malt to hit a post mash pH of 5.4 at room temperature and hardness of 750ppm in the finished product. If your hardness and pH aren't right your clone won't be there.
I picked up a pH meter to check my mash, and I regularly hit 5.4 - 5.6. Perhaps I'm already at a good water profile and it makes me complacent
I picked up a pH meter to check my mash, and I regularly hit 5.4 - 5.6. Perhaps I'm already at a good water profile and it makes me complacent
What about hardness? What about calcium? The Alchemist adds a lot of gypsum to Heady Topper so if you want to clone it I would advise adding an appropriate amount of gypsum to match their numbers.
Maybe you should try it first before offering an uneducated opinion.
ultravista
Well-Known Member
Is it best to add gypsum to the mash, kettle (post-mash), post-ferment?
When I have used high amounts of gypsum (not as high as we are talking here) I would add to mash and sparge to get my pH where I wanted, and then add the rest directly to boil kettle after wort was collected.
In general, people are using at least a portion of the gypsum in mash/sparge for pH purposes.
there's no need to be rude. I didn't say anything definitive. these boards are for polite discussion, not for insults. this thread seems to attract more negativity than most, unfortunately
Minerals can be added to the finished beer and make a difference. If you want to do a quick and dirty experiment on 1 portion of a hoppy homebrew, without committing to changing the whole batch, add a pinch of gypsum and see if you notice a difference. Then add a bit more and try again.
I think at this point people are hoping for objective information instead of subjective information. Part of the reason this thread is so helpful is because people offer their input but it also one of the reasons it is so long and also why most questions has been discussed 2-3X without substantial answers.
rideincircles
Well-Known Member
Some notes from my current batch.
I split my batch in 2 with about 9 gallons from the boil at 1.092 OG (boiled off way more than intended). I let it ferment for a week with no disruptions then started the first stage dry hop in 2 batches. Batch A had about 4 gallons, the other about 5. Both got 3 oz of hops each in the first dry hop and both had 7 ounces at flame out.
Batch A was super fruity with lots of simcoe, el dorado, citra, mosaic, ahtanum, and a few others.
Batch B was more standard to the recipe and more dank overall with apollo, comet, simcoe, chinook and a few others with a dose of citra.
The 1st dry hop ended up being about a week and I was too busy over the holidays to rack to secondary, so I just added the 2nd round of hops to the primary. Batch A got 2 oz since it was smaller and batch B got 3 ounces.
I cold crashed after 2.5 days dryhopping and kegged Batch A on friday, then Batch B on sunday (3 weeks total from brewday). Batch A finished at 1.016, Batch B was 1.018. It does have a noticeable sweetness on batch B, but not detrimental enough to affect much. I may have underpitched with my gigayeast since I had way higher gravity than intended. It may be a ding for competition though.
Batch A was kegged at 30 psi for a day before I had my grillout, and I couldn't stop my friends from drinking it. It was about 10% and is like hop juice. I used 20ml of hopshot for the 90 minute boil and I would say this is the absolute minimum of acceptable level for bitterness. I would probably bump it up next time, but I like it really well as is. I did not do enough to the water chemistry to boost this aspect enough since all I added was 3.5 g CaCl and 4g gypsum to 7 gallons of mash water for 25.6 lbs of grain.
As of now, it is not even fully carbed yet, but Batch a is down at least a gallon and a half after my party. I will probably go to the homebrew club meeting and bring some later to see what the concensus is. As of now, it is hoppy on another level compared to what else I have done so far. Will save a few bottles for bluebonnet to see how it fares there.
Will chime back in later after it matures under co2. Still not sure which one I like better yet, Batch a is incredibly fruity. Batch B is much more dank, but super graperuit flavored. They are still early, but they won't have any issues getting consumed.
Also, the heady yeast I harvested from the can I drank out of was never used, but sat in a beaker in my fridge for a month before some weird fuzzy bacteria started growing in the wort. I tossed it. I harvested some yeast from my original gigayeast starter to keep going for my next one.
Still need to keg my all citra partigyle in the next day or 2, it has been cold crashed for a few days, but is now past the 2 week mark on the dry hops, and I have had issues with grassyness when hops are left on too long. Hoping the cold crash reduces this for now.
I split my batch in 2 with about 9 gallons from the boil at 1.092 OG (boiled off way more than intended). I let it ferment for a week with no disruptions then started the first stage dry hop in 2 batches. Batch A had about 4 gallons, the other about 5. Both got 3 oz of hops each in the first dry hop and both had 7 ounces at flame out.
Batch A was super fruity with lots of simcoe, el dorado, citra, mosaic, ahtanum, and a few others.
Batch B was more standard to the recipe and more dank overall with apollo, comet, simcoe, chinook and a few others with a dose of citra.
The 1st dry hop ended up being about a week and I was too busy over the holidays to rack to secondary, so I just added the 2nd round of hops to the primary. Batch A got 2 oz since it was smaller and batch B got 3 ounces.
I cold crashed after 2.5 days dryhopping and kegged Batch A on friday, then Batch B on sunday (3 weeks total from brewday). Batch A finished at 1.016, Batch B was 1.018. It does have a noticeable sweetness on batch B, but not detrimental enough to affect much. I may have underpitched with my gigayeast since I had way higher gravity than intended. It may be a ding for competition though.
Batch A was kegged at 30 psi for a day before I had my grillout, and I couldn't stop my friends from drinking it. It was about 10% and is like hop juice. I used 20ml of hopshot for the 90 minute boil and I would say this is the absolute minimum of acceptable level for bitterness. I would probably bump it up next time, but I like it really well as is. I did not do enough to the water chemistry to boost this aspect enough since all I added was 3.5 g CaCl and 4g gypsum to 7 gallons of mash water for 25.6 lbs of grain.
As of now, it is not even fully carbed yet, but Batch a is down at least a gallon and a half after my party. I will probably go to the homebrew club meeting and bring some later to see what the concensus is. As of now, it is hoppy on another level compared to what else I have done so far. Will save a few bottles for bluebonnet to see how it fares there.
Will chime back in later after it matures under co2. Still not sure which one I like better yet, Batch a is incredibly fruity. Batch B is much more dank, but super graperuit flavored. They are still early, but they won't have any issues getting consumed.
Also, the heady yeast I harvested from the can I drank out of was never used, but sat in a beaker in my fridge for a month before some weird fuzzy bacteria started growing in the wort. I tossed it. I harvested some yeast from my original gigayeast starter to keep going for my next one.
Still need to keg my all citra partigyle in the next day or 2, it has been cold crashed for a few days, but is now past the 2 week mark on the dry hops, and I have had issues with grassyness when hops are left on too long. Hoping the cold crash reduces this for now.
Bamsdealer
Well-Known Member
My next heady will be w a new yeast. It's shipped in a can and called Barbarian. Claims to have 200 billion cells as well. Got a starter going last night and it was ripping this morning.
