Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[Trillium]

Lots of conflicting statements for starting fermentation temp. I'll try starting at 68F ending with 72F with the next batch. Prior I've started with 64F ending with 70F.

Those fermentation temps are based off of other recipes from Kimmich such as Moose Knuckle and the Black IPA El Jefe.

"The Alchemist house yeast strain is “Conan.” Pitch low at 6–7 million cells/mL, and start at 68° F (20° C)"

As for dry hopping the following should sound familiar, it's directly from the El Jefe recipe published in the IPA book.

"At the end of fermentation, chill to 42° F (6° C) and hold for three days. Remove the yeast and dry hop with fresh Simcoe pellets at a ratio of 0.83 oz./ gal. (1.6 lb./bbl., 6.2 g/L). Rouse hops two to three times with CO2 over a week, then separate the beer from the hops and age cold another two weeks"

From the BYO article Advanced Dry Hopping "you may be surprised to learn that John Kimmich dry hops with under 4 oz. (113 g) per 5 gallons (19 L)" It says just under 4 oz, but 0.083 oz x 5 gallons = 4.15 oz

 

[chato]

A lot of the fruity character in Heady comes from Conan.

I have to admit that the Conan cultured from the can had more of the stone fruit (mostly peach) character than either Omega DIPA Ale or London Ale III had.

 

[ultravista]

Here's what I received today from John K. regarding Dry Hopping.

1. One or two dry hop additions?
A: One
2. How many days per dry hop?
A: More than one, not more than 4.
3. What is the beer temperature during the dry hop stages?
A: 34

For the last question, I will assume that is 34F not 34C (93.2F).

So Heady is dry hopped near freezing temperature. This is contrary to what most brewers do at 68-70F.

With that said, will a dry hop @ 34F produce different results than one @ 68-70F?

 

[geoffey]

Here's what I received today from John K. regarding Dry Hopping.

1. One or two dry hop additions?
A: One
2. How many days per dry hop?
A: More than one, not more than 4.
3. What is the beer temperature during the dry hop stages?
A: 34

For the last question, I will assume that is 34F not 34C (93.2F).

So Heady is dry hopped near freezing temperature. This is contrary to what most brewers do at 68-70F.

With that said, will a dry hop @ 34F produce different results than one @ 68-70F?

Ask him what hops he uses and what his hop schedule is...

 

[ultravista]

I did ask for his reasoning behind 34F. Does it improve results or is a matter of production/process to brighten and infuse at the same time?

 

[sweetcell]

something to keep in mind is that Kimmich's temps, hopping ammount, etc produce those results on his system. these results won't necessarily hold at the homebrew level. brewing 5 gallons has different dynamics than 15 barrels. having 15 barrels (or whatever his batch size is) of pressure on top of the yeast cake changes the ester profile. his hop utilization is different than mine- i'm not getting that much aroma at 4 oz/5 gals. he likely exposes his beer to a lot less oxygen than homebrewers do. etc...

instead of worrying about doing X because that's exactly what kimmich does, we should be translating what he is doing to the homebrew scale. for example, if all that pressure is suppressing esters on the commercial scale, then maybe he can get away with starting at 68*F while we should go with 64*F...

blindly following what a commercial brewer does is rarely going to yield the same result.

 

[roncruiser]

something to keep in mind is that Kimmich's temps, hopping ammount, etc produce those results on his system. these results won't necessarily hold at the homebrew level. brewing 5 gallons has different dynamics than 15 barrels. having 15 barrels (or whatever his batch size is) of pressure on top of the yeast cake changes the ester profile. his hop utilization is different than mine- i'm not getting that much aroma at 4 oz/5 gals. he likely exposes his beer to a lot less oxygen than homebrewers do. etc...

instead of worrying about doing X because that's exactly what kimmich does, we should be translating what he is doing to the homebrew scale. for example, if all that pressure is suppressing esters on the commercial scale, then maybe he can get away with starting at 68*F while we should go with 64*F...

blindly following what a commercial brewer does is rarely going to yield the same result.

Not many know exactly what Kimmich does in his HT dry hopping process. So, really there's no blindly following anything if you don't know important details about the process in the first place. It helps to know and understand what he does in order to begin to translate it to the homebrewing level. Any bit of information helps.

 

[roncruiser]

Let's break it down and compile this information by the following in days:

Fermentation: days?
Dry Hop : 4-5 days
Condition : days?

https://youtu.be/LdfySDN2mF0
Time 43:17: Ph 5.1-5.3 (Taken at mash temp.)
Time:1:01:39: 4-5 days dry hopping
Time:1:01:55: All pellets used. No whole hops.
Time:1:02:21: Does not boil hops. Co2 bittering extract only.

Video notes :
Cans released on 28th day.
Proprietary dry hopping techniques.
During whirlpool, liquid is not pumped. The sheer of the impeller affects the hop oil as it goes through.
Liquid is moved with gas.


Confirmed Ph was taken at mash temp. Stated here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6061974&postcount=55

Kimmich also points out the beer is moved by gas. He mentions the shear of a pump impeller affects the delicate hop oils.

Here's what I received today from John K. regarding Dry Hopping.

1. One or two dry hop additions?
A: One
2. How many days per dry hop?
A: More than one, not more than 4.
3. What is the beer temperature during the dry hop stages?
A: 34

For the last question, I will assume that is 34F not 34C (93.2F).

So Heady is dry hopped near freezing temperature. This is contrary to what most brewers do at 68-70F.

With that said, will a dry hop @ 34F produce different results than one @ 68-70F?

Either his dry hop schedule or process has changed, or he's throwing in misdirection. I'm going with the former. In the video he states 4-5 days. My belief is he's getting better with hop utilization. He's gone from 5 days max down to 4 days max.

 

[Trillium]

blindly following what a commercial brewer does is rarely going to yield the same result.

Maybe, maybe not, but it's a good starting point. The "Can You Brew it" clone episodes followed the recipes from the breweries exactly and they got exact results.

I would dry hop with 1 oz per gallon mainly due to not having ingredients that are as fresh as the Alchemist can get.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Either his dry hop schedule or process has changed, or he's throwing in misdirection. I'm going with the former. In the video he states 4-5 days. My belief is he's getting better with hop utilization. He's gone from 5 days max down to 4 days max.

Interesting. That's how I've been doing my dry hopping for a while. Near freezing, under pressure and occasionally pumping co2 in the down stem. I did that last part by accident once and figured it wasn't a bad idea

 

[kal]

blindly following what a commercial brewer does is rarely going to yield the same result.

+1000

This is something that's often missed. One piece of info is taken from the pro brewer but it's lost in translation when converting to homebrew batch sizes.

Hop addition times are a classic example. When a pro brew goes 'flame out' on a 50 bbl batch there's so much thermal mass that the boil keeps going for quite some time. So adding hops at flameout in a 50 bbl batch will not yield the same results when adding hops at flameout in a 5 gallon batch. Their 'flameout' hop may be more like a 20 min addition at homebrew levels.

We loose a lot of information by trying to pick apart a pro brewer's process. You can't ask things as single questions like "how long do you dry hop for?" without knowing the 20 other variables that go into that. For example, there's been no mention of CO2 infusing or stirring/recirculation. How long he dry hops for is irrelevant unless you can see exactly HOW he dry hops. If you recirc/stir or inject CO2 (or something else), you'll get different/faster results.

Kal

 

[Trillium]

For example, there's been no mention of CO2 infusing or stirring/recirculation. How long he dry hops for is irrelevant unless you can see exactly HOW he dry hops. If you recirc/stir or inject CO2 (or something else), you'll get different/faster results.

That has already been mentioned. During the 4 day dry hop The Alchemist rouses the yeast by injecting CO2 into the bottom of the conical fermenter.

 

[brewski09]

Maybe, maybe not, but it's a good starting point. The "Can You Brew it" clone episodes followed the recipes from the breweries exactly and they got exact results.



I would dry hop with 1 oz per gallon mainly due to not having ingredients that are as fresh as the Alchemist can get.

They also talk about not being able to achieve the same results with the same techniques and modifying things as needed.

 

[kal]

Ok - true, but the problem we're seeing is that this information is lost in subsequent questions/posts. We see people asking "how long do I dry hop?" who's answer needs to include all the caveats/extra info.

Knowing how many days to dry hop is meaningless unless you know that you need to also rouse with CO2 (how often?) at what temp, and so forth.

I'm simply stating/agreeing with the previous poster that looking at, or asking for a single piece of info doesn't pain the whole picture. The info needs to be kept together for it to be meaningful.

Happy brewing!

Kal

 

[ultravista]

Interesting. That's how I've been doing my dry hopping for a while. Near freezing, under pressure and occasionally pumping co2 in the down stem. I did that last part by accident once and figured it wasn't a bad idea

Do you get hazy/cloudy beer when dry hopping cold? My recent PTE clone was dry hopped cold and is hazy as hell. This is the first beer in my brewing history that is hazy and the only one that was dry hopped at serving temperature.

 

[ultravista]

This is something that's often missed. One piece of info is taken from the pro brewer but it's lost in translation when converting to homebrew batch sizes....

I kept my questions simple to prompt a response vs. a long/heavy set of questions which may have been ignored.

It is not lost on me that his process is different than mine. Knowing his process however is a good step in the right direction.

 

[geoffey]

Do you get hazy/cloudy beer when dry hopping cold? My recent PTE clone was dry hopped cold and is hazy as hell. This is the first beer in my brewing history that is hazy and the only one that was dry hopped at serving temperature.

Heady of course is a very hazy beer. I always attributed that to Conan not being very flocculant. But maybe it has as much, or more, to do with a cold dry hop? It would be a fun side by side test...

 

[ultravista]

Every photo of HT I have seen is cloudy, almost Hefe cloudy.

My oddball Pliny clone is just as cloudy and it's not hop particles. Nothing settles after the pour. It is not a detractor either, just something not expected.

 

[dstar26t]

I fermented this years homegrown hop IPA (5 lbs wet hops in whirlpool for 12 gal batch) with 2nd gen GigaYeast Conan and it was surprisingly clear at one month. No dry hopping though, but no kettle/cellar finings either.

 

[carvetop]

Conan actually flocs fairly well and John says as much in the oft-mentioned video. He attributes most of the haze to hop-derived compounds.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Do you get hazy/cloudy beer when dry hopping cold? My recent PTE clone was dry hopped cold and is hazy as hell. This is the first beer in my brewing history that is hazy and the only one that was dry hopped at serving temperature.

all of my beer is hazy. I don't really care tbh. Clarity is at the bottom of my desire list. I never attributed it to dry hopping cold, but it could be

 

[TheHairyHop]

Conan actually flocs fairly well and John says as much in the oft-mentioned video. He attributes most of the haze to hop-derived compounds.

agreed. whenever I make a starter with conan, it's crystal clear even without cold crashing. which would make since, because there are no hops in my starters. perhaps the yeast like to cling to the hop particles, thereby enhancing the aroma by staying in solution?

 

[MadHomebrewer]

agreed. whenever I make a starter with conan, it's crystal clear even without cold crashing. which would make since, because there are no hops in my starters. perhaps the yeast like to cling to the hop particles, thereby enhancing the aroma by staying in solution?

I believe John in the chop and brew talks about it depends on how you treat Conan to get it to drop out. Specifically he mentioned Conan getting its name from how it acts in a CONical.

 

[ultravista]

I thought Conan is derived from the story of young yeasties seeking vengeance for the death of their parents at the hands of Alcohol.

 

[Carmichael23]

So the real question for those of you that have brewed this current recipe. where are the photos, tasting notes, thee FINAL product. Let us read the feed back with all of your changes and what should be tried next!

 

[gotbags-10]

So the real question for those of you that have brewed this current recipe. where are the photos, tasting notes, thee FINAL product. Let us read the feed back with all of your changes and what should be tried next!

Well no one really knows. The two recipes in this thread make a fine IPA even with all the tweaks but it's deff no Heady. It's anyone's guess at this point. I honestly don't know if it will ever get there. The alchemist obviously has some techniques that we don't know about and maybe even if we did may not be feasible on the homebrew level.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Your all silly.

 

[roncruiser]

So the real question for those of you that have brewed this current recipe. where are the photos, tasting notes, thee FINAL product. Let us read the feed back with all of your changes and what should be tried next!

Yeah, the recipes make real good IPA's but nowhere close to being Heady Topper. I have two batches dry hopping right now. I suspect they'll be very good based on post ferment tastings but nothing like Heady Topper.

The more we know about Kimmich's dry hopping process and hop schedule, the more we'll be able to translate it over to something for the homebrewer. Some call it blindly following. I'd like to call it gathering information. More data more better.

Based on my limited experience, I'm blindly following a recipe. Hoping it's Heady Topper. I'm far from an expert.

This thread needs an infusion of upper level homebrewing experts to get on the correct path again.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Yeah, the recipes make real good IPA's but nowhere close to being Heady Topper. I have two batches dry hopping right now. I suspect they'll be very good based on post ferment tastings but nothing like Heady Topper.

The more we know about Kimmich's dry hopping process and hop schedule, the more we'll be able to translate it over to something for the homebrewer. Some call it blindly following. I'd like to call it gathering information. More data more better.

Agreed. I just wish that I could pin point the hops used. I had my first one a few weeks ago and was surprised by the more savory notes. I usually don't like it in an IPA, but it was well balanced

 

[Braufessor]

Agreed. I just wish that I could pin point the hops used.

Agreed - without a MUCH better idea of the hops actually used and their proportions, I think it is all kind of guess work and a shot in the dark. Very good IPA..... not Heady at all in any of my attempts.