Head retention in Saisons

[brownni5]

After a couple AG Saison brews, I just can't seem to get very good head retention. I'm mashing for fermentability (mid to upper 140s), long sacch rests (75-90 min), good pH in the mash and fermenting with Wyeast 3724. I haven't experienced the stall yet - I can get it to ferment hot (75+) and get excellent attenuation. I always have some sort of flaked grain like rye, oats or spelt too - usually in the neighborhood of 5% of the grist. I'm bottle conditioning to about 2.8 volumes (lack of enough heavier bottles to go beyond...). I don't have a problem with other brews, particularly those with lots of dextrins like stouts and porters. Come to think of it, my first stab at a tripel was equally disappointing. What can I do to improve head retention? Do I have to resort to Carapils or the like? What am I missing?

 

[specharka]

Don’t worry about the adjunct. Saison DuPont is made from 100% Belgian Pilsner malt and has lovely head retention. The next time you make a saison, perform a short dextrinization rest at 158-162 for 20-30 minutes prior to mashing out or lautering (depending on your system). It works wonders for developing great body and head retention.

Typically my saison mash schedule looks like:
50 min @ 145
25 min @ 161
10 min @ 168

 

[Lefou]

My fix for a lighter SRM saison would be to add a bit of light DME to the mix. You can add Carapils or wheat as an alternative, but if you still don't get the foaming action you want, it may be your water or hopping.
I use relatively soft water but bump the calcium content to the 50-100ppm range while adding enough hops to get a minimum of 20 IBU. A mix of bittering and aroma hops seems to work fine for me.
Bumping your mash temp up might not hurt, especially if it enhances the dextrin content. Doing a protein rest with the rye, oats, and spelt added might be a bit detrimental, too.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Don’t worry about the adjunct. Saison DuPont is made from 100% Belgian Pilsner malt and has lovely head retention. The next time you make a saison, perform a short dextrinization rest at 158-162 for 20-30 minutes prior to mashing out or lautering (depending on your system). It works wonders for developing great body and head retention.

Typically my saison mash schedule looks like:
50 min @ 145
25 min @ 161
10 min @ 168

This ^^^^

 

[Comfort_Zone]

What kind of bottles are you using that you can't go beyond 2.8 volumes? I routinely carb to 3.5+ for most of my Belgian beers. The carbonation makes a huge difference. Don't bother with carapils, any high protein grain will get the job done.

 

[mabrungard]

You don’t mention the duration of your boil. Long boils can degrade head retention by destroying too much Coagulable Nitrogen in the wort.

Unless you reside at very high elevation, a 60 min boil is sufficient.

 

[dmtaylor]

Saisons don't need to be fermented hot.

There, I said it, again.

 

[specharka]

You don’t mention the duration of your boil. Long boils can degrade head retention by destroying too much Coagulable Nitrogen in the wort.

Unless you reside at very high elevation, a 60 min boil is sufficient.

And if you reside at very high elevation, a 60 minute boil is sufficient.

 

[mabrungard]

And if you reside at very high elevation, a 60 minute boil is sufficient.

Not necessarily. Lightly kilned malts like Pils malt have significant SMM content and the reduced boil temperature at higher elevation does reduce the rate of conversion of SMM to DMS. It is more possible that a brewer could have perceptible DMS in their beers made with high Pils content if they brew at high elevation (or don't heat their wort to boiling). That fact may mean that an extended 'boil' duration might be necessary. But for most brewers, 60 minutes is sufficient.

 

[couchsending]

And if you reside at very high elevation, a 60 minute boil is sufficient.

Nope it’s not

I live at 7000 feet. 90-120 for everything. It makes a big difference.

The 158-162 step for 20-30 does wonders for head retention.

No you don’t need to ferment saisons hots but the flavor profile can be drasticallly different. Some strains can be great at certain temps and gross at other.

Different cold conditioning times and temps can do some interesting things as well.

 

[specharka]

Nope it’s not

I live at 7000 feet. 90-120 for everything. It makes a big difference.

The 158-162 step for 20-30 does wonders for head retention.

No you don’t need to ferment saisons hots but the flavor profile can be drasticallly different. Some strains can be great at certain temps and gross at other.

Different cold conditioning times and temps can do some interesting things as well.

My mistake. I live around ~5500 feet, brew beers with predominantly Pilsner grist, never boil longer than 60 minutes, and have never noticed any DMS in my beers. (I entered my German Pils in a homebrew comp and didn’t receive any feedback about DMS so I don’t think it’s a personal perception issue).

I guess the lower boiling temperature must reduce the perceptible threshold of DMS at higher altitudes. Interesting.

 

[couchsending]

SMM, the precursor for DMS, has a half life of 35 minutes at 212. At 7000 feet and 201 it’s half life is 70 minutes. DMS can present itself as a lot of different aromas not just the cooked corn everyone knows it as. A lot depends on your boil intensity and boil PH as well.

Great write up on DMS on Milk The Funk wiki for anyone looking for more info.