Hate to do it but...another help me with my water profile thread! :-)

[Yambor44]

I've been doing some research on water profiles until I am dizzy with it. Long story short I need some input on my Wards Labs water analysis report. Do I need to add a little gypsum and if so, how much and when do I add it?

I recently got back into brewing and purchased a High Gravity BIAB system, 4500 watt system. I pretty much only brew IPA's and right now 5 gallon finished. I start with about 8-8.5 gallons of water depending on the grain bill.

Thank you for any assistance you can offer! - Rob

 

[micraftbeer]

Do you have BeerSmith? If so, I can talk you through iit water tool, which is what I use.

 

[Yambor44]

I have Beersmith3 on my phone though I am not familiar with it just yet.

EDIT: just DLed the desktop version to my Mac.

 

[micraftbeer]

I don't know where to find this in BS3, but BS2 has a Water Profile under the Tools selection. You enter you water info into what I've circled as #1, and enter the water volume you're trying to treat. I use a "Hop Forward" profile I got from a book that's served me well so Target Profile is Ca: 65 ppm, Mg 18, Na 0, SO4 164, Cl 58, HCO3 0. Then click on the button that says "Match Target Profile", circled as #2, and it will auto-calculate the additions of each type in the section circled as #3.

As a side tip, I did a minor test and found that 1/4 tsp is approximately equal to 1 gram. It's easier to measure with a measuring spoon than on a scale.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Your SO4 was reported as S, which is identifiable by the SO4-S report designation (which is shorthand for SO4 reported as S). This means that your SO4 is actually 66 ppm.

Molecular weights
------------------------
S = 32
0 = 16
SO4 = 96

96/32 x 22 ppm = 66 ppm

A simple proof: This is easily verified by checking and discovering that the reported cation/anion balance is way off for the case of 22 ppm SO4, but is very close to ideal for SO4 = 66 ppm.

 

[ajdelange]

The first thing that hits your eye when looking at this report is the alkalinity of 3.36 mEq/L followed by the Calcium at 3.75 mEq/L. The alkalinity is way too high but the calcium is higher still which gives you the opportunity to use it to remove much of that alkalinity - down to about 1 mEq/L which is typically the most you want (and you'll have to do something about that too.) The next thing you see is the relatively low sulfate (for the style you mention) and paltry chloride.

Now were you in the U.K. you could just add 3.1 mL AMS/CRS (an equinormal blend of hydrochloric and sulfuric acids) to each gallon of the water. That would bring its pH to 5.4, a reasonable value for a good mash, and give you sulfate at 135 mg/L and chloride at 62 mg/L which are reasonable numbers for this style AFAIK but I also know that some brewers like much more sulfate and some much less.

For this particular situation AMS/CRS is ideal as it simultaneously disposes of your alkalinity and supplements the ions you are short on (which is pretty much what the advertising on their website says it is supposed to do). But this isn't the UK and, AFAIK, you can't get it here nor can you put it together by blending sulfuric and hydrochloric acids as you can't easily get them in food grade either. So you will have to find another approach to disposing of the alkalinity. I have hinted at what was the approach taken frequently as recently as a few years back. Simply heating and sparging the water (boiling it sparges it with steam) will cause all but (nominally) 1 mEq/L of that alkalinity to drop out taking all but (nominally) 1 mEq/L of the calcium leaving water poor in calcium, sulfate and chloride. These you can easily make up by adding gypsum and calcium chloride but a trick of the trade is to make these up before you boil as the higher calcium level may take a bit more alkalinity with it. Boiling is, of course, a big PITA and so many prefer to do the same thing with lime which is done in the cold but is a more elaborate process which really requires some understanding of the chemistry involved. In either case, a measurement of the post treatment alkalinity and hardness is required - more complexity.

These days most with water like yours simply throw it out replacing it with RO water to which salts are added to get requisite levels of sulfate and chloride (according to your taste preferences). This generally is the best way to go as it offers you total control of what is in your brewing liquor and freedom from secular variations in what comes out of your tap. You can buy RO water at lots of places and if you try it and like that approach you can then acquire a machine from any of several sources.

While RO is always the best approach and while in this particular case a hydrochloric/sulfuric acid blend is as good an approach there are still other things you can do given that neither of those is feasible. The biggest problem with your water that must be dealt with is the alkalinity. Neutralizing it with HCl and/or H2SO4 is ideal because you need sulfate and chloride. But it can be neutralized with other acids too. You can use 0.77 mL 85% phosphoric acid, for example, to get to pH 5.4. Phosphoric acid is pretty flavor neutral so you probably won't notice a taste effect from it (malt already contains lots of phosphate). You are still confronted with the problem of low chloride, however. You would need to add that in the form of calcium chloride. An addition of 1/4 gram per gallon would get your chloride up to 49 mg/L but raise your calcium to 99 mg/L. If you want to raise sulfate higher than it is you can do that with sodium sulfate (as your sodium is low), magnesium sulfate (as your magnesium is modest) or potassium sulfate (as you have no potassium to speak of). Of these only magnesium sulfate is commonly used by home brewers.

As should be clear from all the above water treatment can be quite complex as there are so many options. Until you figure it out perhaps the best approach is to just follow the Primer in the Stickies at the top of this forum.

 

[Yambor44]

I don't know where to find this in BS3, but BS2 has a Water Profile under the Tools selection. You enter you water info into what I've circled as #1, and enter the water volume you're trying to treat. I use a "Hop Forward" profile I got from a book that's served me well so Target Profile is Ca: 65 ppm, Mg 18, Na 0, SO4 164, Cl 58, HCO3 0. Then click on the button that says "Match Target Profile", circled as #2, and it will auto-calculate the additions of each type in the section circled as #3.

As a side tip, I did a minor test and found that 1/4 tsp is approximately equal to 1 gram. It's easier to measure with a measuring spoon than on a scale.

Your SO4 was reported as S, which is identifiable by the SO4-S report designation (which is shorthand for SO4 reported as S). This means that your SO4 is actually 66 ppm.

Molecular weights
------------------------
S = 32
0 = 16
SO4 = 96

96/32 x 22 ppm = 66 ppm

A simple proof: This is easily verified by checking and discovering that the reported cation/anion balance is way off for the case of 22 ppm SO4, but is very close to ideal for SO4 = 66 ppm.

Thank you both. I Figured out how to do the water profile in BS3. I also changed my "S" to 66ppm.

BS3 reads that I should add: 2 grams of salt, 5 grams of epsom salt and 5 grams of gypsum - all to the mash. I am assuming it is okay to add to the BIAB strike water before adding the grain?

Rob

 

[Yambor44]

The first thing that hits your eye when looking at this report is the alkalinity of 3.36 mEq/L followed by the Calcium at 3.75 mEq/L. The alkalinity is way too high but the calcium is higher still which gives you the opportunity to use it to remove much of that alkalinity - down to about 1 mEq/L which is typically the most you want (and you'll have to do something about that too.) The next thing you see is the relatively low sulfate (for the style you mention) and paltry chloride.

Now were you in the U.K. you could just add 3.1 mL AMS/CRS (an equinormal blend of hydrochloric and sulfuric acids) to each gallon of the water. That would bring its pH to 5.4, a reasonable value for a good mash, and give you sulfate at 135 mg/L and chloride at 62 mg/L which are reasonable numbers for this style AFAIK but I also know that some brewers like much more sulfate and some much less.

For this particular situation AMS/CRS is ideal as it simultaneously disposes of your alkalinity and supplements the ions you are short on (which is pretty much what the advertising on their website says it is supposed to do). But this isn't the UK and, AFAIK, you can't get it here nor can you put it together by blending sulfuric and hydrochloric acids as you can't easily get them in food grade either. So you will have to find another approach to disposing of the alkalinity. I have hinted at what was the approach taken frequently as recently as a few years back. Simply heating and sparging the water (boiling it sparges it with steam) will cause all but (nominally) 1 mEq/L of that alkalinity to drop out taking all but (nominally) 1 mEq/L of the calcium leaving water poor in calcium, sulfate and chloride. These you can easily make up by adding gypsum and calcium chloride but a trick of the trade is to make these up before you boil as the higher calcium level may take a bit more alkalinity with it. Boiling is, of course, a big PITA and so many prefer to do the same thing with lime which is done in the cold but is a more elaborate process which really requires some understanding of the chemistry involved. In either case, a measurement of the post treatment alkalinity and hardness is required - more complexity.

These days most with water like yours simply throw it out replacing it with RO water to which salts are added to get requisite levels of sulfate and chloride (according to your taste preferences). This generally is the best way to go as it offers you total control of what is in your brewing liquor and freedom from secular variations in what comes out of your tap. You can buy RO water at lots of places and if you try it and like that approach you can then acquire a machine from any of several sources.

While RO is always the best approach and while in this particular case a hydrochloric/sulfuric acid blend is as good an approach there are still other things you can do given that neither of those is feasible. The biggest problem with your water that must be dealt with is the alkalinity. Neutralizing it with HCl and/or H2SO4 is ideal because you need sulfate and chloride. But it can be neutralized with other acids too. You can use 0.77 mL 85% phosphoric acid, for example, to get to pH 5.4. Phosphoric acid is pretty flavor neutral so you probably won't notice a taste effect from it (malt already contains lots of phosphate). You are still confronted with the problem of low chloride, however. You would need to add that in the form of calcium chloride. An addition of 1/4 gram per gallon would get your chloride up to 49 mg/L but raise your calcium to 99 mg/L. If you want to raise sulfate higher than it is you can do that with sodium sulfate (as your sodium is low), magnesium sulfate (as your magnesium is modest) or potassium sulfate (as you have no potassium to speak of). Of these only magnesium sulfate is commonly used by home brewers.

As should be clear from all the above water treatment can be quite complex as there are so many options. Until you figure it out perhaps the best approach is to just follow the Primer in the Stickies at the top of this forum.

Thank you for the very detailed reply! Lots of info there. BS3 is asking me to add 2 grams of salt and 5 grams each of epsom salt and gypsum to the mash. Does this sound right?

Rob

 

[ajdelange]

That would put your mineral levels at the following
Ct, mmol/L || Ca++, mg/L || Mg++,mg/L || Na+, mg/L || K+, mg/L || Cl-,mg/L || SO4--, mg/L || HCO3- mg/L
|||||3.5055 ||139.1065 |||||| 28.3208 |||||| 24.4633 ||||| 0.0000 ||||| 87.3503 ||| 214.5550 ||||| 203.6624

Those could, depending on your tastes, make a pleasing IPA but note that they do nothing about the high carbo (Ct) and, accordingly bicarbonate.

 

[Yambor44]

That would put your mineral levels at the following
Ct, mmol/L || Ca++, mg/L || Mg++,mg/L || Na+, mg/L || K+, mg/L || Cl-,mg/L || SO4--, mg/L || HCO3- mg/L
|||||3.5055 ||139.1065 |||||| 28.3208 |||||| 24.4633 ||||| 0.0000 ||||| 87.3503 ||| 214.5550 ||||| 203.6624

Those could, depending on your tastes, make a pleasing IPA but note that they do nothing about the high carbo (Ct) and, accordingly bicarbonate.

Thank you. I'll give it a shot since we may be in the ballpark on IPA's and report back. I will try and brew a batch this weekend.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

As AJ says, you're still fogetting about the bicarbonate. If you don't do something about it, your pH will be way too high. This is more of an issue than the 'flavour' ions. You need to add some acid to the mash and sparge.

 

[Yambor44]

As AJ says, you're still fogetting about the bicarbonate. If you don't do something about it, your pH will be way too high. This is more of an issue than the 'flavour' ions. You need to add some acid to the mash and sparge.

So what do recommend as far as acid? What exactly and what amounts and I’m assuming it would go in the mash?

Also, I put all the water numbers in BS3 and it didn’t ask for any acid. Any idea why?

Thanks.

 

[ajdelange]

Your alkalinity is 3.36 mEq/L. You will need 90% of that (per liter) to neutralize the alkalinity and bring the mash pH to around 5.4. The acid should go into the liquor - not the mash. You may also need a little more acid to handle the alkalinity of the base malt. How much depends on the malt and how much of what type of colored malt is also used.

Why your program does not call for it I don't know. Perhaps it does but in a place you haven't discovered.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

In BS3 the mash pH is in the mash tab, not the water tab. The amount of acid you need in the mash depends on the beer that you're brewing (how much roasted and crystal malt there is). AJ says above that you need 0.77mL per gallon of 85% phosphoric to neutralise the alkalinity to pH 5.4. Assuming you are brewing a pale coloured beer, adding this amount of acid to the mash water and sparge water would be a good option.

 

[Yambor44]

Thanks again. Here is a screenshot of the mash screen in BS3. It says my unadjusted mash Ph will be 5.81. Using 8.5 gallons of total water I'm assuming I need to use 6.55 mL of phosphoric acid or aprx a quarter ounce in the strike water? EDIT: actually my phosphoric acid is only 10%. I found that adding aprx 3.5 ounces in BS3 brings the adjusted PH to around 5.39%. Grain bill is 11 pounds of pale 2 row and 1 pound of 40L

 

[Gnomebrewer]

So you're mashing with no-sparge, correct? 3.5 ounces of 10% phosphoric looks a bit much acid to me. There are numerous threads about the pH calculator in BS3, with most brewers finding that it over estimates the acid needed (for me, it wants substantially more acid than Brun Water for the same mash pH). I'd suggest you go with the 0.77mL per gallon plus a bit, say 1.5 mL of 85% phosphoric to counter the grain alkalinity (you already have some crystal in there to help with this). That gives a total of about 8mL of 85% or about 70mL of 10% phosphoric acid for your water.

 

[ajdelange]

That was 0.77 mL/gal for pH 5.4. For 8.5 gal you will need 8.5 times as much that is 6.545 mL. The following picture shows what might be expected in a nominal IPA mash

This may all be unfamiliar to you but in order to hit a target pH we must have the sum of the "proton deficits", which is the quantity of protons required to bring the pH of a mash component to the target pH, for all the mash components, be equal to 0. The table shows the proton deficits for two typical malts in an 80/20 ratio as having proton deficits totaling 48.7 mEq. The deficit of 59.9 mEq for the base malt (protons required to lower its pH from 5.84 to 5.4) is somewhat offset by the surfeit (negative deficit) of 11.3 mEq provided by the caramel malt as its pH is raised from 5.12 to 5.4. To cancel these 48.7 mEq of deficit and equal amount of protons must be supplied. As a mL of 85% phosphoric acid supplies 14.83 mEq of protons in being brought to pH 5.4 a volume of 48.7/14.83 = 3.28 mL of this acid would be needed.

The water, untreated, has, because of the alkalinity, a deficit of 77.6 mEq (the deficit from the alkalinity is actually higher than this but is offset somewhat by the protons released when calcium and magnesium react with malt phosphate). To remove this deficit requires 77.6/14.83 = 5.23 mL of 85% phosphoric acid. The total acid required is the sum of these two or 8.52 mL.

You, or some other reader, may be asking why the value of 6.545 mL calculated for the water alone in an earlier post is more than the 5.23 mL calculated for the water in this post. The answer is that in the earlier calculation there was no malt present. 6.545 mL is the amount of acid required to bring that water by itself to pH 5.4. When that water hits malt the calcium in it reacts with malt phosphate releasing protons and thus making the water seem effectively less alkaline than it is and we deal with the "residual alkalinity" which you may see mentioned in some of the Gen I spreadsheets and calculators. The spreadsheet that generated the picture above is a Gen II spreadsheet and so does not calculate residual alkalinity but the effects of the calcium must still be considered. In the summary above they are assigned to the water and thus follow, philosophically at least the old residual alkalinity tradition. But the calcium/phosphate protons could equally well be deducted from the malts' deficit in which case the water's deficit requirement would be the same 6.545 mL.

 

[ajdelange]

Now that you have posted the specifics of your mash we can be a little less specific (yes, I said that on purpose) about your acid requirement. The reason I said that is because pale ale malts can differ quite a bit in their properties. In my last post I used an alkaline pale ale malt (DI pH of 5.84). But I have also measured pale ale malts with DI pH's of 5.69. With an alkaline malt and your water you will need 20.6 mL of 85% acid to hit pH 5.4 or 281.8 mL of 10% aid. But if your malt is at the other end of the spectrum the requirement is only 14.7 mL for the 85% strength and 200.5 mL for the 10%. The requirement for the water alone is still 5.23 mL of the 85% acid which is equivalent to 71.4 mL of the 10%. Of that you can be assured but the demand for the malts can vary quite a bit.

This is a fundamental shortcoming of the use of spreadsheets and calculators to predict mash pH. I do not know whether the malt you are going to use is more like the 5.69 or 5.84 malts I have measured and neither does a program which tries to guess at the measured values based on color.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I've been brewing on a High Gravity eBIAB system for just over four years now. Dave Knott pointed out the importance of brewing water in these thin mash systems and the stressed the need to treat mash water. So with all the variations in local water quality throughout the seasons, I decided from day one to use distilled water. Using a consistent water source allows you to focus on your recipe and flavor ions right from the start. Good luck with your new brewing system I think you're going to really enjoy brewing on it.

 

[Yambor44]

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate the input.

I’m. A little confused with how much 10% acid I need to add: 70mL or 714mL?

SB, where can I get info on how to treat distilled water to fit my IPA recipes?

Rob

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate the input.

I’m. A little confused with how much 10% acid I need to add: 70mL or 714mL?

SB, where can I get info on how to treat distilled water to fit my IPA recipes?

Rob

Go with 70 to 80mL.

 

[ajdelange]

I’m. A little confused with how much 10% acid I need to add: 70mL or 714mL?

You have every right to be. When I typed 714 I missed the decimal point. It should be 71.4 mL of 10% phosphoric acid for just the water. That still leaves you with a considerable range of possible requirements from variability in the malts. Were I you I would prepare about 10 gal of water and acidify it to pH 5.4 with phosphoric acid. That's going to take around 100 mL but you don't really care exactly how much it takes as long as you get pH 5.4. Now pull out a quart of that treated water, warm it and mash a scaled weight of the grist. See where the pH of that falls and determine how much extra acid is required to get the mini mash to target. That method is much more reliable than any calculator can be.

For starting advice on distilled water brewing see the Primer at the top of this forum. Use half the amounts of salts recommended in the early posts i.e. 2 grams or so of each of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate per 5 gallons treated.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The requirement for the water alone is still 5.23 mL of the 85% acid which is equivalent to 71.4 mL of the 10%. .

I think you might be making a mathematical error here
5.23mL of 85% = 5.23x0.85\0.1= 44.5mL of 10%

 

[ajdelange]

No. Don't think so. You are assuming that 85% phosphoric acid is 8.5 times as strong as 10%. That's not how it works. The protons supplied by 1 mL of acid are

N = density * (percent/100) /mol_wt * protons_per_mmol

Thus 85% is (0.85*1.675) / (0.1*1.051) = 13.5466 times stronger than 10%.

%||||||density|||||| grams/ml|||||||mmol/mL||||||mEq/mmol||||||| mEq/ml
10 ||| 1.0510301||| 0.10510301 ||| 1.07247969||| 1.009010614||| 1.08214339
85 ||| 1.68559348||| 1.43275445||| 14.6199434||| 1.009010614||| 14.7516781

Density is the grams of acid per mL. grams/ml is the grams of H3PO4 per mL. mmol/mL is the millimoles of H3PO4 per mL, mEq/mmol is the number of protons released by 1 mmol H3PO4 to pH 5.2 and mEq/ml is the normality (the number of mEq released by 1 mL of the acid).

 

[Gnomebrewer]

No. Don't think so. You are assuming that 85% phosphoric acid is 8.5 times as strong as 10%. That's not how it works.

Yes, I was assuming that (and always have). I didn't realise the acid percentage was by mass, not by volume. The 10% solutions I've made up from my 85% acid are stronger than they should be then! (Fortunately I only use the 10% solution - which isn't really a 10% solution - in a mini mash to work out my acid requirement in the main mash, so it doesn't really matter what I call it).

 

[Yambor44]

Brewing a batch today.

Dead Ringer IPA

5 gallons

11 #'s 2 row
1 pound caramel 40L

Centennial hops

60 mins 1 oz
20 mins 1 oz
5 mins 2 ozs

Dry hop 1 oz

Mashing at 152º recirculating for 60 mins.

9 gallons of total water in my high gravity system. One thing I did today I have not done in the past was to check the temp of strike water. HG readout said 152º, my Thermapen mk4 showed 143º....so I ramped the temp up on the HG PID controller to 158º to get a dough in temp of 151º. After slowly stirring in the grains over about 4-5 minutes, temp dropped to 148º. Heat on, slowly recirculated for 5 mins to set the grain bed then opened it up a little more for recirculation mash.

75 ML phosphoric acid in strike/mash water
1 Tbsp gypsum in strike/mash water all recirculated while coming up to strike water.

I cannot find my PH meter (smh). I obviously misplaced it after I calibrated it last. Also out of PH strips. What I thought was PH strip shaking around in the bottle ended up being that little packet they put in there to keep things dry. So.... we'll just see how it all shakes out in a few weeks!

Thanks again for everyone's input on this. I really appreciate it and I will report back after this beer gets on tap. Probably be about 4-5 weeks from today 11-04-18.

 

[Yambor44]

Well I brewed another batch on 11-4-18 (one month ago).
11 pounds 2 row pale malt
1 pound Caramel 40L

Brewed 11-4-17
Secondary on 11-17-18
Kegged 0n 11-25-18

Hops
All centennial
1 oz - 60 mins
1 oz - 20 mins
2 oz - 5 mins

2 oz dry hop last 4 days (secondary)
OG 1.056
FG 1.011

I used 9 gallons of mash/strike water (BIAB High Gravity System) with:
75 ML Phos. Acid
1 TBSP Gypsum

I mixed these in and dissolved before adding the grains. I was not able to take a PH reading because I misplaced my meter.

The finished beer is much better than previous on the nose but still has a slight off flavor that I can't seem to put my finger on.

I did find that my PID was reading from 9-11 degrees off from the actual temp of the strike water so I adjusted the PID to 158º to reach a mash temp of 150-152º. I'm running a test now on 9 gallons of water only and after 90 mins the PID holds at 152º while the actual temp of the water has finally made it up to 148º.

I am assuming some (or all??) of my past off flavor was due to me doughing in and mashing at 152º when the temp was actually in the 141º-143º range for the majority of the mash.

What are your thoughts?